Cocked and locked 1911

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MICHAEL T

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I am always reading that the army wanted the Cocked and locked carry and that condition 2 was unsafe When I was growing up most every 1911 owner I knew carried Condition 2 or 3 I didn't see cocked and locked till 70's and into 80's as people moved more to the Commander bobbed hammer. I just found this statement on changes made to the original 1911

In 1914, after a few years service, the Army requested and received several small changes to the M1911, with the most noticeable change being the lengthening of the hammer spur to help **** the pistol with only one hand

So must have been some hammer down carry going on back then for Army to want that Kind of change

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/background.htm#test
 
Remember that in 1914 the Army was not mechanized and the changes they asked for was to aid mounted cavalry in handling the weapon and prevent them from shooting themselves or their horse.

Browning original design didn't incorporate a manual safety or a grip safety. I do believe his contribution to the pistols safety was the inertial firing pin. He figured that a SA semi auto would be just like the SA 1873 revolver. You thumbed the hammer back to shoot and lowered it to make safe.

The Army asked for the manual safety to allow a mounted soldier to holster his ready to fire weapon in relative safety will at a full gallop rather than having to use the more difficult procedure of lowering the hammer on a live round. The grip safety was to add some safety to a cocked pistol that had been dropped. Remember that the lanyard was standard issue and wear for mounted soldier to prevent the loss of their sidearm if they happen to loose grasp of it during combat or other maneuvers or activities. Browning never designed the pistol to be carried C&L.
 
Both MICHAEL T and Steve C. are correct in their thinking. Both the safety lock (manual safety) and grip safety came about because of insistence by the Calvary - that didn't want a pistol in the first place. They’re big concern was if a mount became unmanageable in a fight the trooper might have to reholster the pistol (as originally designed) with no way to make it safe against accidental discharge. In place of a pistol they lobbied for the adoption of Colt’s New Service revolver.

While cocked & locked carry was not unknown, it didn’t become “the way” until Col. Cooper came along. A good argument could (and often is) made that he was right, but historically that wasn’t a common practice in earlier years.
 
I have nothing to add but will follow this thread. It's very interesting to read the changes and reasons to firearms.
 
While cocked & locked carry was not unknown, it didn’t become “the way” until Col. Cooper came along. A good argument could (and often is) made that he was right, but historically that wasn’t a common practice in earlier years.

There will probably be those who argue and disagree but the above is 100% correct.

Dave
 
Remember that the lanyard was standard issue and wear for mounted soldier to prevent the loss of their sidearm if they happen to loose grasp of it during combat or other maneuvers or activities.

I was on the Mounted Color Guard while in the Marines. Believe me, the lanyard is a VERY important piece of gear for a cavalryman!!!!

You are most likely to lose the weapon while moving at a trot. While at a walk, posting trot and a gallop, the weapon will stay in the holster. At the sitting trot, the gait that most of the color guard drill is done, that is when the pistol will leap out of your holster!

There is NOTHING more embarrassing then calling for a halt and having to backtrack to go look for your pistol!

(Been there, done that!)
 
I thought the changes made for the adoption
of the 1911A! in 1924
Arched Main Spring Housing
SHorter trigger
scallop cuts on the frame to the rear of the trigger
also included the
longer tang on the grip savety and
the change to the hammer.

Whatever,

R-
 
It is a MYTH that the 1911 was designed from day one to be carried cocked and locked. That is 100% BS.

Full time cocked and locked carry is safe enough but it only became mainstream MUCH later in the 1911's lifetime.

Hammer down carry is 100% safe no matter what some people who have no clue about gun design may think.
 
C&L

Always hear how UNSAFE it is to carry a 1911 with one in the pipe and hammer down, but just keep wondering if its so UNSAFE, just how would a soldier who cocks, then fires say a couple of rounds, reholster his weapon with hammer down as regulations state it must be i hear. I find it impossible to beleive a soldier would drop his mag, eject the live round, return the round to the mag, then slip the mag back into the butt. Please, someone explain to me what the proper precedure would be, as my time, many years ago, in the Army, I was considered to stupid to be issued a 1911!
 
I thought the changes made for the adoption
of the 1911A! in 1924
Arched Main Spring Housing
SHorter trigger
scallop cuts on the frame to the rear of the trigger
also included the
longer tang on the grip savety and
the change to the hammer.

Hammer was changed again at that time
 
It is a MYTH that the 1911 was designed from day one to be carried cocked and locked. That is 100% BS.

Full time cocked and locked carry is safe enough but it only became mainstream MUCH later in the 1911's lifetime.

Hammer down carry is 100% safe no matter what some people who have no clue about gun design may think.
That's one of the things I've noted, looking at the older magazine articles.
 
I am throwing this into the mix. The early issue mags had lanyard loops. I can just picture a trooper at full gallop chasing Villa sorting through all those lanyards, you have to wonder if they were used in the first place.
 
When I was in the service doing SP duty, I carried the 1911 in condition 3, it was mandatory. I now carry it in condition 2 most of the time, but carry it in condition 1 also, depending on the neighborhood I am in..
 
Alright, the Old Fuff will conduct a quiz. Let's see who our smartest member is... :cool: :)

What famous law enforcement agency adopted cocked & locked carry long before it was introduced to the shooting public by Jeff Cooper?

I await your answers... :uhoh: :D
 
You are correct!!!

Boy that didn't take long. Those rangers that adopted the Colt Government Model over a revolver often carried cocked & locked, and sometimes in pairs, starting in the 1930's.
 
I've seen those "specials" also. I have a lot of respect for those guys from the 20s-30s. A week or two on a pack patrol all by yourself and average time between gunfights of less than two weeks. Got to repect that type of experience. Part of the reason I carry a 1911.

As to being anywhere near the smartest member? :uhoh: :scrutiny: Not even close.

I tip my hat to Old Fluff. Always enjoy his posts and the knowledge he shares (which is far in excess of mine).
 
Old Fuff's quiz:

Texas Rangers.

The grip safety was on the 1910 prototype that Browning first submitted for testing. The cavalry asked for the manual, slide-locking thumb safety...and got it. Horses can be a bit unruly when the incoming gets intense, and they wanted the ability to place the gun on safe so that it could be reholstered and the trooper's attentions turned to regaining control of the horse...without shooting himself and/or the horse.

Even then, they understood that...under extreme stress...a trooper might neglect to remove his finger from the trigger before reholstering...a point that Gaston Glock apparently failed to consider.

The notion that Browning intended for the gun to be carried cocked and locked is a bit of a stretch. I seriously doubt that he intended anything at all, other than to provide a choice of Conditions 1-2-3-and 4. Beyond that, he probably didn't care how they carried it....and if the truth was known, he was probably sick of the whole deal by the time they got it finished.

Browning didn't have complete autonomy, and he didn't design the gun by himself. Essentially, it was designed by a committee, and Browning was a hired hand who had a team of Colt's top engineers at his side. It was an assignment. He gave'em what they asked for. No more and no less.

Neither did Browning "correct" his mistakes with the Hi-Power....like the omission of the grip safety. (He actually had very little to do with the final design, since he died 9 years before it was finished.) If the people who wrote the checks had specified that the P-35 have a grip safety, you can bet the farm that it would be wearing one today.
 
And here 'tis...the Model of 1910. Eight of these were built and submitted. Six were retrofitted with the thumb safeties and resubmitted for approval. This is one of only two original 1910s remaining, making them the rarest of the rare.

Photo courtesy of Charles Clawson.

1910.jpg
 
The cavalry wanted the manual safety not only for holstering a pistol but to be used when a horse became unruly. The cavalryman could put the safety on so he wouldn't accidentally discharge a round while regaining control of the horse. It was not unknown for a trooper who failed to lower the hammer on his revolver to shoot his own horse, which tended to be both embarassing and possibly fatal to the rider when the horse fell and rolled on the trooper or thrashed around in pain.

JMB apparently thought that a half cock notch was an adequate safety, and he did not put manual safeties on his hammer guns. His shotguns and rifles, none of which had inertia firing pins, had only a half-cock for carrying safely. As noted, both the manual and grip safeties were put on at the insistence of the Army.

BTW, there is plenty of evidence that the lanyard loop on the pistol was used, not to prevent loss of the pistol by a cavalry trooper, but by military police to keep the pistol from being grabbed while trying to make an arrest. But I have never found any evidence that the lanyard loop on the magazine was used. If there was concern about losing the pistol during a cavalry charge, there should have been concern about losing the magazine, and I assume that was the reason for the loop. But when the subject came up on another site, I looked at dozens of pictures of troopers in training, at manuals, and at books on the cavalry. I could find no evidence that the magazine loops were ever used. I had seen references to lanyards with two or even three snaps, but no pictures, and experts in cavalry equipment had never seen any.

Another BTW, the cavalry didn't need to campaign for adoption of the New Service revolver; it was already the standard Army handgun, having been adopted as the Model 1909. The Army wanted a modern .45 caliber pistol and having no idea when (or if) an auto pistol would be adopted, the adopted the Model 1909 in that year. Colt chambered them for the .45 Colt, but the Army found the small rims jumped the extractor, so Frankford made the .45 cartridge, Model 1909, with a larger rim. (Those cartridges can be used in the Model 1873 only by loading every other chamber; that made no difference whatever to the Army, as the old single action was long obsolete.) Two Model 1909s were used as controls during the testing of the later auto pistols. In firing thousands of rounds right along with the pistols, the revolvers had two failures, both due to bad primers. There was no mechanical failure or breakage of the revolvers. The Army adopted the M1911 anyway.

Jim
 
the lanyard was standard issue and wear for mounted soldier to prevent the loss of their sidearm if they happen to loose grasp of it during combat or other maneuvers or activities.

Really! I thought it was to prevent the petty officer of the deck on a submarine (who stands his watch standing on a round hull) from losing his side arm in the drink whilst playing quick draw on the mid-watch.......

who would have thunk it??
 
JMB apparently thought that a half cock notch was an adequate safety, and he did not put manual safeties on his hammer guns

And yet, the mere suggestion of carrying the gun on half-cock will bring on screams of agony from some corners...just the same as lowering the hammer on a chambered round.

I guess our grandfathers weren't sufficiently enlightened...
 
...was I ignorant???

...carried a 70s Combat Commander with a hand-made right-side safety by Jim Clark cocked and locked in the holster on duty...but off-duty, in my belt, I carried it hammer down on a round...trusting the inertial firing pin...was this not smart??? I'd draw and cock it if needed...which wasn't ever...and had no trouble lowering the hammer...when in the Corps, .45 was carried hammer down on a empty barrel....draw, rack, and fire was the plan...and we were taught to cock it on our pants-leg if the other hand was "occupied"...by the salty old guys...
...do the newer models have a firing pin block or something like it or are they still the same???
 
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