Cocked and locked 1911

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I wish to thank Old Fuff and 1911 Tuner for their input. Most of the time just the mention of condition 2 starts a war. Their is a belief in this country you can't lower a hammer and not shoot something if its a 1911. SA pistols , lever action rifles ,shot guns , The come in hammer models and its fine to lower a hammer but not on a 1911.
I hope this thread continues in a sane discussion and people come to realize Their were other ways to carry a 1911 long before the Col Cooper and the gamers decided condition 1 was the ONLY way.
 
Another BTW, the cavalry didn't need to campaign for adoption of the New Service revolver; it was already the standard Army handgun, having been adopted as the Model 1909. The Army wanted a modern .45 caliber pistol and having no idea when (or if) an auto pistol would be adopted, the adopted the Model 1909 in that year. Colt chambered them for the .45 Colt, but the Army found the small rims jumped the extractor, so Frankford made the .45 cartridge, Model 1909, with a larger rim. (Those cartridges can be used in the Model 1873 only by loading every other chamber; that made no difference whatever to the Army, as the old single action was long obsolete.) Two Model 1909s were used as controls during the testing of the later auto pistols. In firing thousands of rounds right along with the pistols, the revolvers had two failures, both due to bad primers. There was no mechanical failure or breakage of the revolvers. The Army adopted the M1911 anyway.
 
Another BTW, the cavalry didn't need to campaign for adoption of the New Service revolver; it was already the standard Army handgun, having been adopted as the Model 1909. The Army wanted a modern .45 caliber pistol and having no idea when (or if) an auto pistol would be adopted, the adopted the Model 1909 in that year. Colt chambered them for the .45 Colt, but the Army found the small rims jumped the extractor, so Frankford made the .45 cartridge, Model 1909, with a larger rim. (Those cartridges can be used in the Model 1873 only by loading every other chamber; that made no difference whatever to the Army, as the old single action was long obsolete.) Two Model 1909s were used as controls during the testing of the later auto pistols. In firing thousands of rounds right along with the pistols, the revolvers had two failures, both due to bad primers. There was no mechanical failure or breakage of the revolvers. The Army adopted the M1911 anyway.

The whole history of the U.S. Model 1909 .45 revolver has never been told, and I hope to do it in a book I'm researching. That said, I'll address a couple of myths now.

The Model 1909 was in reality, a commercial Colt .45 New Service revolver, chambered in .45 Colt, with plain walnut stocks that were specified by the Army, that wanted something slightly slimmer then the standard black hard-rubber kind.

It did not replace the older model 1892 .38 revolvers then in use, except in one place – the Philippine Islands. In fact, with the exception of a few hundred, all of the 1909 revolvers that were made went directly to Manila without the usual stop over at the Springfield Armory.

As is generally known, the .38 revolver and proved on too many occasions to be inadequate when it came to stopping Moro tribesmen. Some older .45 Model 1873 Single Action Colts were shipped post-haste, but they were strongly disliked. Most of the available ammunition was old, left over from the Indian Wars, and loaded with black powder. The gun was slow to load and unload, and could only be carried safely with 5 rounds. So as an emergency stopgap the Model 1909 came about, and it’s adoption had nothing to do with the revolver vs. pistol controversy then going on within military circles. The problem was that the war with the Moros was on going, and the pistol wasn’t ready yet.

While some 1911 pistols came with Army units being rotated from the United States, direct shipments of the new Colt weren’t made to the Manila Arsenal until April 18, 1917. Eventually the 1911 pistol replaced the 1909 revolvers, mainly because they used ammunition that was exclusive to that arm. Thereafter they were sold as surplus.

The above is only a small part of what is a very interesting story...
 
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Speaking of Cavalry...

I had a friend, now deceased, who served as an officer in the cavalry prior to and at the beginning of WWII. They sent him and his troops to North Africa, with a plan of bringing the horses later, but decided to reassign the units before shipping the horses.

He once told me that he once demonstrated firing and reloading a Model 1911 while riding a horse to a number of dignitaries that included Herbert Hoover--when I do not know. HH could have been the Sec'y of Commerce at the time.

I do not recall discussing the carry mode but I doubt that "cocked and locked" was ever in the picture.

By the way, he believed in not keeping the magazine springs compressed for a very long time. I accepted that advice for a long time.

He always told me he would like to have a Model 1917 revolver, but he never got one.

He stayed in the Army for decades and served in Viet Nam. After WWII he used his service auto to shoot an armed burglar who was about to stab his wife. The single shot stopped the guy decisively, but the man made a full recovery and stayed away from crime and in touch with my friend after serving time. Reportedly, he credited the .45 with straightening out his life.

His son is ex-Army and is also a Model 1911 man.

I finally got one late in life and though it looks unnerving at first, I like the "cocked and locked" condition.
 
As an interesting side note to Old Fuff's post, a small number of Colt 1907 .45 acp pistols were sent to the Phillippines for trials. Unfortunately, I haven't read any accounts of their actual use in combat.
 
Another myth that we always hear is a 1911 in condition 2 will fire from a blow to the hammer. That is 100% BS.
 
This has been a very informative thread! I do want to opine that the original mode of cavalry carrying 1911s does not mean that is the best mode of carry for police or civilian defense today. But, I don't want to sidetrack this thread and turn it into another debate on the proper/best way to carry.
 
My point is cocked and locked is faster for those who are trained to do it. Condition two carry is SAFE. If someone wants to carry condition two it is their business.

I see so much 100% BS about condition two being dangerous when that is not the case. Even Cooper used condition two in some cases.

If one feels cocked and locked is not for them then condition two is fine.
 
My point is cocked and locked is faster for those who are trained to do it. Condition two carry is SAFE. If someone wants to carry condition two it is their business.

I see so much 100% BS about condition two being dangerous when that is not the case. Even Cooper used condition two in some cases.

If one feels cocked and locked is not for them then condition two is fine.
There was an article in one of last year's "Guns and Ammo Book of the 1911" about an officer who was in Iraq who was left-handed, and carried a box-stock, WWII vintage 1911 in Condition Two. He was a good and quick shot with it, and being box stock and mil-spec, his pistol was entirely reliable.

Jerry Ahern was another advocate of Condition Two.
 
Condition 2...like C-1 and C-3 is an option. No more and no less. The gun's design allows any of the three...according to the owner's need and/or desire. Lowering the hammer on a hot chamber is a little risky, to be sure...but not so much if done correctly and with careful attention to the task at hand.

Conditions 2 and 3 offer one distinct advantage over cocked and locked. They better protect the lockwork from sand, dust, and other debris.
 
Hammer manipulation, whether cocking quickly or decocking, is probably more difficult with the short rounded spurs and beavertail grip safeties than with the original design.
 
This again.:scrutiny:

If you CCW a 1911.....do it cocked and locked. Throw it in a Crossbreed Super tuck and your good. Is it really that intimidating? Sure there's a thousand other ways to carry and half a million reasons we can make up why...............

The 1911 is still fairly safe cocked and unlocked. Cocked and locked it's the safest gun I carry.


Can't handle it, switching to a gun that suits you better may be a better option than uncocked or empty chamber or the just leave the magazine at home condition ( I think thats condition 47, created during the French/American war vs space aliens of 1921, to prevent dunken soldiers from shooting at silver pie plates hung near a window, more than once). LOL.

Ok, I must confess. Condition 2.32965 paragraph number R sound like agood mode of carry.
 
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Interesting how perspective changes over time. I am amused by internet posters claiming to carry a 1911A1 in cocked and locked condition while serving in the armed services in recent decades. While in Germany in the 60, we were issued .45s for guard duty. You got a .45, two magazines and 5 rounds when you were authorized deadly force. Both magazines were to be carried. One empty, one with five rounds in the piece with an empty chamber. Carrying a round chambered .45 would cost you a stripe and a month's pay.

In Viet Nam, in the unit I was in, grunts could carry a .45 if they wanted to. Very few did because of the added weight to a hundred pound combat load and the sorry condition of the guns which requires an inordinate amount of time for maintenance. After carrying a .45 in a wet leather holster for a couple of months it is in pretty sorry shape. There was also the popular perception that carrying a holster, map case or binocular case marked you as a leader who would be targeted by a sniper. In my hundred man company, I can't remember more than two or three grunts that carried a .45. None of the officers did unless escorting payroll or going to the village for some R&R.
 
From FM 25-35, dated 1940:

On the range, do not load the pistol with a cartridge in the chamber until immediate use is anticipated. If there is any delay, lock the pistol and only unlock it while extending the arm to fire. Do not lower the hammer on a loaded cartridge; the pistol is much safer cocked and locked

n. On campaign, when early use of the pistol is not foreseen, it should be carried with a fully loaded magazine in the socket, chamber empty, hammer down. When early use of the pistol is probable, It should be carried loaded and locked in the holster or hand. In campaign, extra magazines should be carried fully loaded.

m. When the pistol is carried In the holster loaded, cocked, and locked the butt should be rotated away from the body when drawing the pistol In order to avoid displacing the safety lock.
(My emphasis)
 
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