Cold 25 Yard Test

[Cump]

Today I took out six guns that I either carry or keep in a safe with loaded magazines to see how I did at 25 yards with the first four shots of carry ammo. Why four? The 9mm Gold Dots I wanted to shoot were divisible by four. No warm up, no do-overs. Some surprises and disappointments. I had a clean backer so could identify my misses. 3 were 4/4, 3 were 3/4.

Oh, an an alibi. Not a fan of indoor lighting or aging eyes. May be switching some guns to tfos.

PASS (with some irritation): Springfield Mil-Spec

(I felt shot 3 go south)

PASS: SW E-series Stainless

(Fourth shot at bottom of tear on top of sheet. Think I may be pushing left a bit because of long trigger. New gun: need to adjust to 6oclock hold.)


(Close but) FAIL: CZ 75B

( I forgot to hold 6 oclock. Fourth shot was half an inch above target on backer, one inch from center.)

PASS: Sig p365 (EDC)

(Benefitted from contrast night sights.)

(Fail, but honorably): Micro Eagle 380

(It looks liks the fourth is at the bottom. That is a trick of light. It was actually barely above the target.)

FAIL: (Wife's) Glock 43

(Fourth was 3 up from center and left of target an inch.)

I almost always shoot 25 yards after warmup. Instructive regarding shooting differences and patterns ... And that I need to spend more time with the Cz and learn the E-series.

 

[Armored farmer]

That is a very good exercise.

 

[AzShooter1]

Good training exercise. You can tell a lot for a little shooting. Ammo is getting too expensive to be wasting any.

 

[.38 Special]

Excellent! We all too often are able to convince ourselves that what we've done once is representative of what we can do on demand. The truth is often far less pleasant.

I have long been a proponent of "running groups" when it comes to rifles. The idea is to roll up a target in the rifle case. Each trip to the range, the target is stapled up at the usual distance and the first cold, clean shot is put into it. Then the target is rolled back up and the rest of the day's practice is commenced. After a few weeks (or months, or years) the target will have enough holes in it to tell the full story - and at least in my experience, that story is always far worse than the one we tell online. I have not really tried the same thing with my handguns, but I cannot think of a reason why I should not - fragile ego excepted.

 

[LiveLife]

FAIL: (Wife's) Glock 43

I am seeing possible trigger pull/grip push deviation of muzzle on target holes that could attribute to "flyers" (Bart B. and some match shooters may say "There are no flyers, just shooter induced deviations").

Watch the front sight of Glock while dry firing and see if the front sight moves/jumps/jerks when the striker is released. If the factory trigger is fairly new, you may see significant front sight jump/movement and this movement of muzzle could translate to several inches at 25 yards. If deliberate practice for grip/trigger control doesn't eliminate front sight movement, pistols may need trigger job/work if you want acceptable/smaller groups at 25 yards - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/trigger-control.834737/page-2#post-11245640

Cold 25 Yard Test ... four shots of carry ammo ... 9mm Gold Dots ... No warm up, no do-overs. Some surprises and disappointments

Not a fan of indoor lighting or aging eyes.

"No warm up" is a good range drill to start out with.

For defensive/carry pistols, I like to do cold barrel eyes CLOSED natural point of aim/point of impact drills to start out my range session at 5-7 yards.

Why eyes closed point shooting?

For the worst case defensive shooting scenario where optimal/ideal stance, draw, grip, sight alignment and trigger control followed by trigger reset and follow up shots are not available, first shot and subsequent shots must hit the target to be effective. And we must be able to do this under poor light/visibility and stress while possibly moving around/seeking cover.

So the first eyes closed "natural point of aim" shots TRULY/BETTER reflect how we WILL SHOOT in real life. If POI is around POA, then I proceed to multiple targets/aim points (I usually place 4 dots on copy papers) at greater 10-15 yards. If POI is not at POA, I synchronize by not adjusting my grip/stance rather making adjustments at shoulders and waist. Once eyes closed POI is synchronized with POA, then I move on to eyes open fast point shooting at multiple targets/distances - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...or-her-first-time-today.908729/#post-12369077

 

[Cump]

I am seeing possible trigger pull/grip push deviation of muzzle on target holes that could attribute to "flyers" (Bart B. and some match shooters may say "There are no flyers, just shooter induced deviations").

Watch the front sight of Glock while dry firing and see if the front sight moves/jumps/jerks when the striker is released. If the factory trigger is fairly new, you may see significant front sight jump/movement and this movement of muzzle could translate to several inches at 25 yards. If deliberate practice for grip/trigger control doesn't eliminate front sight movement, pistols may need trigger job/work if you want acceptable/smaller groups at 25 yards -

I think one of the biggest benefits of this for me, probably like the eyes closed drill, will be preventing subconscious correction. For instance, if I had already shot a few mags through the CZ, I may have drifted my poa to the right with the bull a blur at 25 yards. Thus the pattern of shooting left with some guns would seem less significant.

I have thought most of my leftward shooting is about trigger reach. Even with the cz cocked, my finger tip angles a bit to muzzle (with pad centered). That is also the case with the e-series (long trigger, I think). I have tried to correct by giving the trigger more finger and it may have helped some or been disguised by other adjustments -- or focusing on 10 yards (where I can see poi with each shot) or higher volume or rate of fire, which expands the group and may make the leftward skew less apparent.

I don't shoot the CZ a lot, and have been content enough, but the new e-series (which I want to shoot like the mil-spec) made me look at the pad ajustment more. With both guns, extending my reach to put more pad on the trigger is creating a contact point on the grip at the base of trigger finger. When I pull, there isn't a lot of movement but there is some and clear leftward pressure at the grip.

With Glocks, I think it might be the same thing, perhaps impacted by the extra reach needed to center the pad on the trigger safety. However, looking back at some past 10 yard targets (G20, G19, G30, G27), I am for some reason farther left with the G43. Odd because it has less trigger reach, but there could be other contributing factors ...

Up to today, except with the mil-spec and revolvers, 25 yard shooting has been less often and mostly on steel.

I'm mostly concerned with improving with the cz and e-series. Do I correct with grip/trigger pull adjustments and practice, or should I switch to a shorter trigger shoe (like all the other 1911s I have had) and something other than stock for the cz?

 

[LiveLife]

trigger reach ... finger tip angles ... e-series ... I have tried to correct by giving the trigger more finger ... When I pull, there isn't a lot of movement but there is some and clear leftward pressure at the grip ... improving ... cz/e-series. Do I correct with grip/trigger pull adjustments and practice

Chapter 3 of US AMU Pistol Marksmanship Training Guide goes into details about trigger control - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/trigger-control.834737/page-4#post-11320782

Even with smooth trigger that won't move the front sight when the hammer/striker is released, as Jerry Miculek/Brian Zins point out, front sight/muzzle is in constant movement during trigger pull/press until bullet exits the barrel.

What I learned from having been taught 2.5 lb trigger job on my match 1911 is firing pin/striker release is not an "instantaneous" event rather a sequence of events that require increasing amount of force to undo several intentional safeguards and mechanical action of metal-to-metal contact surfaces overcoming friction/tension applied by springs and leverage - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/trigger-control.834737/page-2#post-11249077

And in addition to trigger control (push/pull inducing left/right and up/down movement of muzzle), input to grip by sympathetic finger movement could push the muzzle further. And this is why I believe eyes closed point shooting is key at the start of range session because holes on target tell us what our body is actually doing.

biggest benefits ... probably like the eyes closed drill, will be preventing subconscious correction

Over the decades, I have taught/shared defensive point shooting method my defensive shooting instructor/USPSA RSO/SWAT instructor taught me to hundreds of people (family/friends/neighbors/coworkers/their friends/strangers I met at ranges) where he made us remove our front sights (or tape up) and turned down the indoor range lights so we couldn't use the front sight. Our pass/fail test was around 4 inches (He made a fist and said that was about the size of a human heart) at 7-10 yards eyes open point shooting while he called out "Top right, bottom left" etc.

Now, I just have people close their eyes for natural POI synchronization with POA. Some are surprised how much they anticipate and compensate when they shoot the ground or deviate POI significantly from POA on target. But what the eyes closed point shooting reveals is what their body is actually doing, not what they "think" the body is doing.

And once POI synchronization takes place with POA (Essentially us "trusting" our body/muscle memory we mastered all of our lives without the distraction of visual cues ... Eyes can be deceiving); because we all know how to "point" and come within about an inch of whatever we are pointing at usual defensive shooting distance out to 10-15 yards, shooters then can produce bullet holes at will fast anywhere on target (The "Zen" of shooting according to Brian Enos and many others like some regional USPSA shooters who coached me).

or focusing on 10 yards (where I can see poi with each shot) or higher volume or rate of fire, which expands the group and may make the leftward skew less apparent.

Shooting/training to the point of failure where you can see POI deviation from POA is good practice as you receive feedback with each shot. And larger sample size provides more data.