Colt Defender woes

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One more :D question (for awhile, I promise!!!):

Lubrication.

While robust, the 1911 is obviously a creature of fine tolerances. I am fanatical about maintenance. I use oil on pivot points, TW-25B on slide rails and barrel. So the question is: Can a lubricant create "suction" or "drag" sufficient to put the timing out of tolerance? Can there be that fine a line?

I'm starting to get the feeling that what works for everything else might be different in these little 11s.
 
The original 1911 and 1911-A1 USGI pistols often operated in harsh environments with no lubrication. I would hope that your Colt Defender would uphold the reputation. Special lubricants should not be necessary, and if they are the piece is not something you should want to stake your life on.

In many cases users over-lubricate the gun, and all that does is attract and hold fouling and carbon.

The reason the current crop has been found to be fussy is because the makers no longer come remotely close to the dimensions, specifications and materials that made the eariler guns what they were.

However if it makes you feel more warm and fuzzy go ahead and oil and grease it with whatever... :neener: :)
 
On the range...

First, and foremost --- everything stayed in one piece. :D

I had a RO spot me during single-load firings, while I was reasonably safe firing from behind the alley divider. No one else was on the line. Short of a bomb disposl unit, I think the safety issues were covered pretty well.

I had reinstalled the original Defender springs and followers, having read more than I ever wantedd or intended to on the subject. Figuring Colt might have had some rationale here, they went back in.

After some delicate throating, HP feed has been considerably improved. Only Rangers are a little iffy (1 malf out of about 80), but the interesting thing is the ball. I had two FTFs (stovepipe) with American Eagle 230 FMJ, each on the same mag, but could not get it to duplicate again.

Federal Hydros and EFMJs fed flawlessly (50 rds each). Rangers were OK (whereas before, they were totally indigestible).

One of the thigs that occurs to me here is that, essentially, the gun is being "broken in" a second time. The subtle changes that have been made need to be accommodated by the rest of the system.

The next change will be the firing pin stop, to render a light press-fit (the original, like the original trigger, is a loose drop-in-drop-out fit) and eliminate extractor shift (clocking), which may be insignificant, but might as well be eliminated.

Again, with all of the new (and, admittedly frustrating) insights I've gained both here and "inside" the Defender, I am still left with the impression that Colt did their job --- no more, no less: JMB/FMJ.

Mag springs and a possible link swap are in the future.

One malf at a time ...:D
 
Stovepipe

51Cards said:

> but the interesting thing is the ball. I had two FTFs (stovepipe) with American Eagle 230 FMJ, each on the same mag, but could not get it to duplicate again.<
*************

That particular glitch is known as a Bolt-Over Base misfeed. Usually happens on the last round...though it can occur at other places too...and it's a magazine problem. Specifically, a magazine spring problem. The spring is too weak/slow to get the round into position before the slide gets there. Breechface rides over the rim and catches the case in the extractor groove.
Butt goes down...Nose goes up...Wham! A more severe example of the bolt-over misfeed is the rideover feed, where the breechface gets past the extractor groove, and crushes the side of the case, trapping it between the slide, magazine, and feed ramp...and usually producing a true jam.
 
51,
I firmly believe the use of exotic lubes and greases, like TW-25B can actually impair reliability. How? By decreasing friction and increasing the cyclic rate!
I use FP-10, but any lightweight oil is more than adequate.
I have read quite a few posts where every attempt is made to eliminate ALL friction. Some will finely polish frame rails and slide surfaces to remove all tooling marks. A step in the wrong direction I think.
Anyways, food for thought.
It will be interesting to hear what Tuner has to say.
 
Lube

Concur again with Chuck. I think that too many people believe that the pistol needs to run as fast as possible, when what it actually needs to do is slow down a little.

I use either FP-10 or plain, old Mil-Spec LSA...and just a little dab'll do ya.
 
I understand that stainless alloys can require more lubrication (lower porosity, finer face structure), and that was part of my earlier question --- the equivalent of "oil whip" in some mechanical structures. In effect, friction is reduced, but viscosity increases drag. None of this "super-goober" stuff existed when the gun was designed.

The mag springs are relatively new --- they are the originals from Colt, with only a few hundred rounds on them. Again, the velocities involved may be higher than Colt designed for in the mags.

Judging from felt recoil --- admittedly a subjective measure --- a substantial number of high-pressure rounds have been fired. As mentioned previously, I have more or less quarantined this gun from +P, for reasons both structural (throating) and lack of need.

I think that this gun is coming close to being all that it can be. And, I believe that once I've understood its individuality, the piece can be maintained at its highest level.

What an interesting journey this proving to be! Take a Sig out of the box, it's a space shot. Take a 1911 out, and try to put your mind back to 1908 or so, and make everything function in 2006.

Mag springs are next, and back to good old gun oil. I have enough neo-guns to use the TW25 up on.

Only a couple of people I know can actually appreciate this experience. Nothing else like it. No golf club or tennis racquet compares --- although, to be fair, I'm sure there are vaguely similar challenges.

I don't venture into those forums, but I can say that this one is as supportive as one could ask for.

Thanks again.

We move onward!
 
51,
I sense a pre-occupation with case support in your posts.
The 45acp functions quite well with very little pressure in ALARMINGLY unsupported barrels.
In my career, I've only rejected a handfull of barrels, due to over throating.
I do agree with Tuner, in that one should err with caution. But I've seen 1911's from one of the most reveared shops in the country, that were dangerously over throated.
If you were to provide us with a good, clear pic of a round in your barrel, and also an accurate measurement of hood to breechface gap.....
we could prolly give you relevant, accurate advice.
 
I'll work on those photos. I've been running on the cautious side because I had been removing material from the bottom of the berrel and re-blending the cut, exposing a bit more of the bottom of the case.

Originally, I was surprised at how little of the Magic 1/32 Inch there was on this gun. The throat was only a hair ahead of the ramp. From what I could see, the measurements from the rear of the barrel link ears was too high. That was when I started working on it.

My approach was to throat as delicately as possible, and to stop immediately when I had acceptable results --- there being no remedy for "Whoops! Too far!" Preoccupation? You bet! Horror stories abound :what: . The potential combination of lessened web support and headspace tolerances seeemed like a good thing to keep under control :uhoh: .

Yesterday saw WWBs, Fed Am. Eagles, CCI Blazers (aluminum) fired singly, then multiply, as a resistant-to-weak case start before approaching full defensive loads. I wound up firing about 40 rds of Rangers, 40 rds of Fed Hydros, and 40 rds of Fed EFMJ, with bo difficulties save my nerves, initially, the ball feed/battery failures, and the Ranger FTF --- all of which seem to fit 1911Tuner's descriptions.

My doctor once said, "Just because you have three different things bothering you doesn't mean that you have a complex issue --- it could simply mean that you have three separate things happening."

Since the stem lock was obvious even when hand-cycling, and was incessant in live firing, that was Problem One.

Since throating, that problem has virtually disappeared. Now, the more "garden varieyt" of stoppages have become more evident. It would seem that the magazine springs are Problem Two.

Problem Three may consist of "extractor clocking," which quite honestly I noticed beefore delving into 1911Tuner's (and others') archives. I don't know if extractor looseness is a major force here, but I do think that the extractor is not properly pinned in place. (In my 1943-vintage 1911, the pin stop has to be gently pushed from the FP grooves; this one simply rattles and falls out.)

Problem Four may consist of a link c-c/timing issue, which I will also approach with great caution (per Tuner's "Whoa, there!") and as a last resort.

SO ... back to case integrity ---I figured that the bull barrel in this thing could take a lot of abuse; but that I'd prefer to chase that aspect bit by bit. I think it is probably not necessary --- but prudent --- to avoid +P or +P+ pressure levels in a chamber that is slightly "loose" by design and now has a "dimple" impinging beyond the case web. No more stem lock means it ain't broke anymore, I think.

If I'm visualizing the remaining problem correctly (a la Tuner's observation), the ball ammo is now "ricocheting" up toward the hood and the slide is moving back to battery faster than the round can lift properly into position --- resulting in stovepiping OR RTB failure.

The end of the session saw smooth rapid-fire of Ranger/Hydro/EFMJ, so now whatever problems there are would seem to be simpler than the original ones. (I can live without Rangers; I'd rather not be forced to live with EFMJS.)

This pistol works, and works better than it did. As with the case support, my trick now is to find a "best" zone without swinging back and erring in some other direction.

Which is where the :cuss: :cuss: :cuss: :cuss: -ing would begin. Again.
 
Non-Support

Same page again, Chuck. As long as standard or even +p pressures aren't exceeded, the pistol does very well. Stir a little careless handloading or
excessive headspace into the mix, though...and things can get a bit dicey.
But...again...just because headspace is a little "loose" doesn't mean that it's dangerous. Depends on which direction it comes from.
 
Grrrr

Just got the Ed Brown "Hardcore Firing Pin Stop."

"*Made to max tolerance for precise fit. Some hand fitting may be required."

OK. So I figure I'm going to spend some quality time with a stone or two, a little oil, and squidge this sucker in for a nice light press-fit.

Wrong.

The "max tolerance" part is .010" narrower than the original. :cuss: :banghead: :cuss:

JB Weld it is. $16.79 FPS, it is not.
 
It may be that your slide is out of tolerance. Maximum width on a standard USGI firing pin stop is .467" -.002"

Current pistol manufacturers tend to use parts with dimensions all over the ballpark. Some of this is because they accept whatever their suppliers send them, and part of it is because of "adjustments" they've made for their own reasons. If the slot in the slide is a little large it makes it all that easier for the hired help to quickly put the pieces together. Time is money you know…
 
I've figured that out, on this one:
Poorly-tensioned extractor (time).
Poorly-finished magazine catch (time).
Drop-in/drop-out FPS (time).
Extremely loose trigger (time).

The barrel is a dandy, though. Guess there's no way to dodge on that one.

It becomes painfully apparent that the entire setup on this pistol effectively replicates wartime assembly --- make it so that it "falls" together, never mind the fit, long as it (mostly) works. Which would be fine, with a few hundred thousand of 'em being loaded with ball and designed so that mud could be rinsed out with what-have-you :D

It's not so fine with a piece that is not wartime production, is not intended to have crud stuffed in it, and is intended to be competitive with other, more contemporary designs.

Incidentally --- the Ed Brown "max tolerance" stop is .465 --- which to me reads "min tolerance." :cuss:
 
Incidentally --- the Ed Brown "max tolerance" stop is .465 --- which to me reads "min tolerance."
Click to expand...

Then I would return it to the seller (or manufacturer) for exchange or refund. If it ain't right, it ain't... :cuss:

I keep blueprints handy so I can check such things...

Oh, and if the original firing pin stop is .475" (or .006" to .008" oversized) how big is the slot in the slide? :scrutiny:
 
The stop seat is a whoppin' .482". The original stop is .472".

With that kind of fit, you could pretty much play horseshoes with it and toss it in from across the room.

Clearly, the Gozinta Department is far down the hall form the Gozonta Department.

I may wind up lightly JB-ing both sides of the original stop, as well as the extractor groove. Needle files, needle files.

Are numbers like these very uncommom????

PS
Just for laughs, I'm going to strip and dimension the WWII Colt. Be interesting to see how the tolerance issue compares with a "modern" item. As I recall, the whole thing fits together pretty nicely, with a healthy amount of rattle in the slide.
 
Last edited:
Relative thickness fo firing pin stops..

A previous post mentioned that his Ed Brown firing pin stop wasn't oversize as advertised. His experience appears to be tha same as the same as yours regarding the FPS.

Maybe someone who has an EGW oversize Firing Pin stop might offer the width dimensions of their FPS..?

I assume that the various retailers of aftermarket parts, don't necessarially use a micrometer to measure all of the parts that go to the outbound shipping dock, much less the inbound parts receiving area.

Because the label on the box says 'Brown, Wilson, Cylinder and Slide' does not mean that those suppliers receive perfect parts from their outsourced vendors.

Old Fuff is absitevly posilutly correct with his suggestion that you notify Brown that their 'oversize' part' is, actually, 'undersize'.

I dunno it its worth the effort and postage to mail the part back and forth, but I'd dang sure let them know.

I understand that this isn't the most pleasant experience that you've ever had, but look at all the fun that you're having..:D

salty.
 
Salty, I almost hate to admit it --- but you're right. ;) With all of the stuff going on with this (admittedly great-shooting) pistol, it's turned into some sort of weird final exam on 1911s.

Would I have been learning all of this if everything were perfect? Of course not. Does my fiancee think I've gone completely off the berm? You betcha. She is a patient woman ...

It's a $16 - $17 part, so it is worth returning. I expected to be stoning off six or so thousandths --- instead, I could tamp the thing in place with dental floss.

I wonder if Ed Brown makes "max tolerance" extractors? Like, maybe +/_ .013"? :D
 
Are numbers like these very uncommom????
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, no....

Both Tuner and I have a set of USGI blueprints, but they don't do much good so far as the current and recent past 1911 gunmakers are concerned because they seem to all march to a different drummer. :banghead:

USGI guns and parts are usually good dimension-wise, because the Army maintained their own inspectors at the contractor's plant. In addition the company also had their own (and usually large) inspection department. Today, in a cost-cutting environment, inspection/quality control departments are often the first to be cut back. Given the disparity in slides I don't know how any aftermarket slide stop provider can expect one size will fit everything. The same goes for other parts too.
 
My dog has a new trick!

HPs are now feeding great. Now, I'm getting slide lock in mid-magazine, only at times, and only with ball. This gun has a sense of humor, all right.

Nothing has been done to the slide lock --- yet. (Having reviewed the Diagnostics.)

Wolff mag springs on the way.

QUESTION 1:
The Dimple. Even before this odyssey began it was clear that the follower dimple had to be there (on std. mags) for a reason. I mean, why go to the trouble if you don't need to? A little time playing with A-Zooms and paying attention, the last-round timing becomes more obvious. SO --- why NO dimple on the (orange) Defender followers???

(I sense that the answer has something to do with the fact that JMB passed before the Defender was born ...) :D

QUESTION 2:
Does it make any sense to lightly polish the hammer face? The drag when the FPS rides over the hammer surface is palpable. Is this an intentional "braking" in the design, or an area of potential improvement?

(Slightly off the above --- why the heck does Springfield engrave the serial number on the lug --- where the raised edges can grind over the hammer face?)
 
THE MAGAZINE FOLLOWER DIMPLE

John Browning never did anything without a reason...

Over a 10 year period Browning, Colt, and U.S. Army Ordnance Officers worked together to prefect a “magazine pistol” for the military services. The pistol that became the Model 1911 was not laid out on a piece of paper and drawn up. It was rather an evolutionary development, where over the years prototypes were built, tested, and then evaluated. Then new prototypes were built to address faults found in the earlier ones, and the process repeated.

The final tests (or “Trials” as they were called) were conducted during March, 1911, and an Ordnance report noted that among the improvements that had been made one was: “12. A raised dimple was formed in the middle of the magazine follower to assist the last cartridge as it left the magazine.”

The purpose of the dimple was to prevent the last cartridge from being pulled forward and mis-positioned in the magazine.

There is no evidence that later designers of late 20th century “gamer” magazines bothered to find out why Browning did what he did, and circumstantial evidence that they didn’t have a clue.
 
Premature slide lock, mid magazine..

Recently I've starting fooling around with a Combat Commander that I gave one of my sons pre Desert Strorm 1. I had forgotten how handy the Commander size pistols were, so I have bought myself replacement Commanders. Chuck Rogers at Rogers Precision has one and the other has been getting significant range time.

One of the things that I noticed early on was that when I shot the Commander one-handed Outdoor Pistol style, I'd occasionally get pre-mature slide lock. Finally figured out that, with the lighter pistol, and increased recoil, my right thumb was lifting the slide stop. Bill Wilson markets a 'Bullet Proof' slide stop that has a built in detent. # 414B. (The 'detent' is really a 'ledge'.)

I put away the OEM slide stop from the '51 Commander and substituted the Wilson replacement. The pre-mature slide lock problem has, so far, gone away and the slide locks back when it should.

'Limp Wristing' alloy frame 1911 pattern pistols can easily induce pre-mature slide lock.

salty.
 
I generally don't have a problem with limp-wristing, but after about 150 rds on this it is entirely possible that I llimp-wristed it. I need a break. It's been a lot of rounds in a short time, I'm beat. Funny, though --- the premature slide lock came on CCI Blazer rounds, not on Federal Hydro or EFMJ. I would have thought the "zippier" rounds would be more likely to induce that.

I don't recall ever having a problem with the last round being a problem in this pistol. Typically, it has been the second, next-to-last; and now, sometimes a mid-mag slide lock (which is probably me --- the plunger spring seems fine, not significant fouliing, etc.).

I'm hoping that the new mag springs will solve part of the problem.
 
'Limp-Wrist' seems to have some sort of negative msg involved that wasn't my intent.

It happens. Maybe at the range, maybe somewhere else.

You're not always going to be able to do the two handed 'turret', or 'Weaver', or 'whatever'.

Stuff happens...I just wouldn't count on everything happening the way you'd figure.

salty.
 
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