Colt or S&W in the Old West?

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Kleanbore

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If you were in grade school around the time of the fiftieth anniversary of manned powered flight, you may have had a Daisy air rifle, but every Western character you watched in the movies or on TV or read about in the comic books, with the exception of Lash LaRue, carried one or two Colt single action revolvers. Heck, they even relied entirely upon them in those fictional extended gunfights when a rifle, or at least a carbine, would have served them a lot better.

That continued well into the 1960s and beyond. If one were to draw conclusions from what was shown on the television screen, one would believe that no one but Colt sold a noticeable number of revolvers in the "old west". Many of us became enamored by those Colt SAAs and the "Frontier Six Shooters." We became familiar with the way they worked, with the grip, and with the balance. That created a demand that resulted in Bill Ruger's great innovations, in the Great Westerns, and in Colt's return to production.

But in reality, there were other large revolvers available back in the day. We recently had a thread here on the Remington 1875. And there were the top-break Smiths.

A little research shows that Buffalo Bill Cody, Virgil Earp, Bob Ford, Pat Garret, John Wesley Hardin, Frank and Jesse James, Charlie Pitts, Bill Tilghman, and Cole and Jim Younger carried Smiths at one time or another, along with many Wells Fargo drivers and guards.

I cannot help but wonder whether our perceptions and the demand for period revolvers might have been different had Hollywood portrayed a somewhat more balanced picture of revolver preferences in the old west.

Of course, we would never see Alan Ladd fanning a Schofield, and there were practical reasons for selecting one over the other.

But the real question in my mind is, might some of us have developed the same affinity, for lack of a better word, for the appearance, workings, grip, and balance of a top-break Smith and Wesson as we have for the Colt Model P, had our screen heroes carried them?
 
I'll definitely conceed that my love of guns has MUCH to do with movies that are a part of my culture as an American. As a kid, movies were the easiest way for me to experience the Old west, short of pulling out a book *gasp* at the library.


Early americana is definitely a passion of mine, and sometimes doing the research I enjoy so much I am forced to peel back the veneer that hollywood has put on the "old west" exposing the truth behind the cliche that is presented.

Sometimes I like that truth more, some times I like the veneer more....haha.

So, to answer your question explicitly, Yes, I definitely think that if more cowboys were represented as having fought with rifles and shotguns rather than revolvers, or smiths rather than colts, it would have informed my/our playtime as such, and it would have ingrained a much different response to such things.
 
Ok, I grew up watching the T.V. heroes too. But after some thought, your point may be answered by the proliferation of many of the guns NOT used on screen and T.V. tubes. Even though they are Colts, when did you see a Dragoon, Walker, Patterson, open tops in gen. and others- Le Matt, Spiller and Burr, Griswold. My point is this, after all this time (since we were kids) the judge (time plus the intro of these other great weapons) has spoken. The top guns used today (sass, cass, sales nos. in gen.)are much the same as in the move west. Rugged simplicity wins over style and fancy. I love fancy!! A top break spittin out all empties is way cool, but needing to pull your weapon quickly and accidentally spittin out a fully loaded cyl. could be deadly!!

Believe me, I see your point, but since we do have these other choices (and have had for some time now) I think we are back where we started . . . . literally!!!!!!

Just for the record, I'd love to have a new Merwin Hulbert (open top of course!!)


45 Dragoon
 
I don't think we can blame it all on Hollywood. The Colt SAA and the Great Western replica (seen in place of a lot of Colt's in movies) were the only guns in production much beyond 1900. S&W's abandoned single actions entirely and Remington stopped producing handguns at all. Not that the Colt design was the most prolific in the late 1800's but it was the most accessible when the movies and TV shows were made.

That said, other guns had appealing qualities individually. The Remington with its solid frame/grip frame design had no grip frame screws to loosen. The S&W's had simultaneous ejection of all five or six empties and reloaded much easier. Neither one handles like a Colt SAA.
 
Good put, Craig.

I have to wonder whether, if I had gained a lot of familiarity with the Schofield or Model 3 .44-40, I would have found it as ergonomic as the Colt.

Somehow I tend to doubt it, since I found the 1851 Navy so darn close to perfect. But who knows?
 
My only real gripe about the S&W is how far it is to reach the hammer. I don't have to shift my grip at all to reach it on any Colt design, even the monstrous Dragoon and I can run one pretty fast one-handed. That S&W hammer is just a wee bit out of reach. Other than that, a very well thought out and elegant design with a distinct advantage for a fighting pistol.
 
While the S&W was well used in the West, the Colt was much more popular for several reasons.

First, everyone had used the Colt percussion revolvers since the 1840's and Colt was not only the default due to familiarity, the Colt grip shape was much more popular to most users.
Colt's reputation, advertising, and availability made it more popular.

Second, S&W sort of did themselves in early on by seeking and getting the Russian contract to make revolvers for the Imperial Russian military.
By the time S&W actively turned their attention back to the West, Colt already pretty much owned the market, including the Army.

In most photos from the West and accounts of use of guns, the Colt was preeminent. You saw and heard of the S&W, but the Colt was by far the most often used and mentioned.
Hollywood simply followed along with what the real guys had been using.
 
I find the Smith more attractive and advanced, but the Colt easier to use.
Plus, the .45 Colt is more powerful than .45 Schofield.
 
While the S&W was well used in the West, the Colt was much more popular for several reasons.

First, everyone had used the Colt percussion revolvers since the 1840's and Colt was not only the default due to familiarity, the Colt grip shape was much more popular to most users.
Colt's reputation, advertising, and availability made it more popular.

Second, S&W sort of did themselves in early on by seeking and getting the Russian contract to make revolvers for the Imperial Russian military.
By the time S&W actively turned their attention back to the West, Colt already pretty much owned the market, including the Army.

In most photos from the West and accounts of use of guns, the Colt was preeminent. You saw and heard of the S&W, but the Colt was by far the most often used and mentioned.
Hollywood simply followed along with what the real guys had been using.

Just another thought - S&W chambered the Schofield in .45 S&W (.45 Schofield). While this cartridge can be chambered and fired in a .45 LC Colt, .45 LC cannot be chambered, much less fired, in a .45 S&W firearm. From an ammunition supply standpoint, a Colt in .45 LC would have made a lot more sense than a Schofield.
 
Howdy

I am the right age to figure into the demographic. I didn't have a BB gun, but I did have a Fanner Fifty and the coolest toy Winchester ever made. And I used to love watching Gunsmoke, Cheyenne, Have Gun Will Travel, Bonanza, Maverick, and all the other oatburners that were on TV at the time.

Let's run some numbers. Starting in 1873, by 1900 Colt had produced roughly 200,000 Single Action Armies.

There were five distinct models of Smith and Wesson Number Three Top Break revolvers. The American Model, the Russian, the Schofield, The New Model Number Three, and the Double Action 44. Production numbers for these models are as follows:

American, produced from 1870 until 1874, approximately 29,000 produced.

Russian Model, produced from 1871 until 1878, by far the most produced, around 130,000, but the great majority of them were shipped to Russia, Turkey, and Japan. Not many were sold here.

Schofield Model produced from 1875 until 1877, only about 8000 ever produced.

New Model Number Three, cataloged from 1878 until 1908, but all the frames had been made before 1899. About 47,000 produced.

44 Double Action, cataloged from 1881 until 1913. About 70,000 produced in all calibers and variations.

So what do we have as a total for all the large frame S&W Top Breaks? If we ignore the Russian guns, most of which were shipped over seas, we have about 154,000 large frame Smiths produced during the 19th Century. Somebody check my math. But the totals for any specific model are no where near as high as what Colt produced.

That is clearly reflected in what we saw in the movies. The movie studios used to own huge quantities of guns. They bought them up because nobody wanted them. When the movies first started up, very few shooters were interested in these antique guns, everybody wanted double action revolvers and automatics. Sound familiar? So the movie studios were able to buy up huge quantities really cheap. When you saw a cowboy drop his gun onto the floor and kick it across the room, that was no rubber gun. It was a real 1st Gen Colt that would be worth about $2000 today. But they were so cheap back then that nobody cared. It was not worth going to the expense of keeping an inventory of rubber guns, the originals were so cheap. And that's what you saw reflected in the movies, a bounty of cheap Colts and Winchester Model 1892s because they could pick them up dirt cheap.

A few comments about S&W Top Breaks. I am lucky enough to own several, a Russian, a Schofield, a New Model Number Three, and two Double Acton 44s. And I do shoot them. None of them are as easy to shoot as a Colt (yes I have a couple of them too). For some strange reason, all of the aforementioned models, except the DA 44 have the hammer spur pointing almost straight up. I have fairly large hands, and I have to really reach forward to get my thumb on the hammer spur. The DA 44 is the only one that is ergonomically easy to shoot. With a Colt, the hammer spur is right under my thumb, easy to grab while the gun is recoiling.

I can tell you that the Russian model is incredibly awkward to shoot one handed. The big hump on the frame (Smith called it a knuckle) means that I have to completely regrip in order to cock the hammer, and then I have to regrip again to get my palm below the knuckle. If I don't and I fire the gun with the knuckle against my hand, it hurts like the dickens, even with the mild recoiling 44 Russian round.

And I guarantee you, none of these guns is going to inadvertently open up on you when you want to shoot it. All of them, except the Schofield require two hands to open them. One hand grasps the barrel and one hand grasps the frame. The latch is opened by pushing up on it with the thumb of the hand holding frame. Then you rotate the barrel down. It just ain't going to pop open unless you want it too. The early replica Schofields made by ASM had problems popping open, but the originals (and the Uberti replicas) do not.

One of the reasons the Army rejected the Schofield was they felt the mechanism was too delicate and would break down too easily. Horse feathers! The mechanism of a Number Three Top Break is robust. And it is simple. If you want to see a part that is likely to break and has to be hand fitted when it does, look at the bolt in a SAA some time. That is a fussy part. Nothing that fussy inside a S&W Number Three.

So that's my take. The movies were full of Colts because so many had been produced and they were so cheap.
 
When Westerns were first being filmed, there just weren't many S&Ws, Merwin-Hulberts and the like to be had; if Remingtons were available, you might never know the difference between it and a Colt in the fleeting moment it appeared on screen. I think this was because Colts were made in greater quantity than the rest, and because they were a more durable design, as well. By the time Great Western got around to building repros, the movie-going public was used to looking for Colts.

Additionally, if all a movie armorer had to work on were Colts and their clones, it really shortened up his logistics train. I've handles a mess of those old movie guns, and though they rattled and had mismatched parts ( .38 cylinder on a revolver with a .45 barrel, for instance), they still basically functioned.

I love seeing a greater variety of period-correct firearms in today's Westerns, but I have to wonder which designs hold up best under the rigors of movie use; I imagine Colts still shine in that regard.
 
Great responses. Thanks.

Three more questions:
  1. How are the trigger pulls on those Smith SA top-breaks?
  2. Does anyone know why the .44 WCF chambering was not popular and why many were reportedly converted to .44 Russian?
  3. Am I correct in assuming that even the black powder Model Ps were stronger?

Back to movies and TV--I do not recall seeing anything other than Colts in the B movies and TV shows of the '40s and '50s. However, later movies did feature the occasional S&W or Remington, a cartridge conversion or two, and even a Merwin and Hulbert here and there....
 
If you look closely at some of the revolvers in the old movies, often it's a Colt Official Police or New Service that was converted to resemble a Colt SAA.

Hollywood did conversions for actors who weren't very good at operating a SAA, especially fast.
They converted the butts to look like SAA's and added fake ejectors on the barrel.
The last time I can recall these being used in a movie was "Shane".
In the final gunfight in the saloon Jack Palance was holding an Official Police and I think Alan Ladd had some sort of longer barrel double action revolver.

1. Trigger pull on the S&W's was about that of the Colt's. They all varied.
2. Some people had problems with the .44 WCF-.44-40 in the Colt's. I've heard stories that some guns cylinders would lock up.
3. The two piece S&W frame suffered from the same problems all top break revolvers had: wear in the hinge and latch making the frame loose. All two piece frames are inherently weaker than a one-piece frame.
The one-piece colt frame was stronger. This is one reason early power experimenters like Elmer Keith used the SAA, and why the most powerful revolvers made today are single action designs.
 
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Slightly off-topic but according to A.C. Gould's book, Modern American Pistols and Revolvers, first published in 1888, many of the target shooters of the day preferred The Smith & Wesson top breaks to the Colt Single-Action. Both the Smith and the Colt were equally accurate, but these revolvers had a tendency to lose that fine edge of accuracy quickly with black powder fouling. The Smith top break was more easily cleaned on the firing line by breaking the action and running a cleaning rod in from the breech, while to accomplish the same thing, the cylinder had to be removed from the Colt.
 
I think we can thank Clint Eastwood for introducing us to Colt cartridge conversions in western movies. His were made by prop companies from percussion replicas, probably mostly to make it easier to use with blank cartridges. Then boosted by Tom Selleck who had them purposely made by custom gunsmiths. Now you see them much more often. It's also his fault that I have such a fascination with them. I'm tickled that we can buy them factory made now. They've made notable appearances in several recent movies like 3:10 to Yuma, Appaloosa, The Quick and the Dead, etc..

I've never even handled an original S&W but the trigger on my late model Uberti is decent at 4lbs and comparable to a similar Colt replica.

The .44-40 was extremely popular but I don't think S&W ever chambered it. It would've been a good cartridge for them as it had a larger rim than the .45Colt.

I imagine they were a wee bit stronger but at blackpowder pressures, I'm not sure how it would play out long term.
 
One needs to also consider the patent dates on the various mechanisms and designs back in the 1800's. I'm no scholar on this subject, but it had a great impact as to what manufacturers could make legally. There were patent laws even back then.
 
converting the 44wcf to 44 russian would require a new cylinder as the base diameter of the 44wcf case is .471" and that of the 44 russian is .430". going from 44 russian to 44wcf would also require a new cylinder as the neck diameter of the 44 russian is .457" and that of the 44wcf is .443".

a bit of a hassle in either case.

murf
 
The New Model No. 3 was indeed cataloged in .44-40. I recently read somewhere that a number of the ones that were originally produced were changed to .44 Russian before delivery due to poor demand.

Odd, since that chambering sold well in Colt revolvers.
 
if people were shooting at me id want a 73 winchester but the old saa are a sweet looking gun and alot of them carryed more than one i would hate to be in a shoot out and have to reload a saa
 
According to George Layman author of "The British Bulldog", it was the small "Bull Dog" from various countries, that was actually the most popular gun in the West.
 
I cannot help but wonder whether our perceptions and the demand for period revolvers might have been different had Hollywood portrayed a somewhat more balanced picture of revolver preferences in the old west.

Of course, we would never see Alan Ladd fanning a Schofield, and there were practical reasons for selecting one over the other.

But the real question in my mind is, might some of us have developed the same affinity, for lack of a better word, for the appearance, workings, grip, and balance of a top-break Smith and Wesson as we have for the Colt Model P, had our screen heroes carried them?

Good question!

My own affinity for the Colt SAA stems from childhood. More specifically, the Colt SAA with the 5.5 inch barrel.

I know there were other revolvers, and clearly remember many of them in various shows and movies, though the Colt definately dominated. And I quite admire many of them, as well.

Perhaps I might not so lovingly adore the Colt SAA if another had been more prominent in Hollywood productions. But the Colt SAA has a beauty all its own for a variety of reasons.

The cap-and-ball revolvers, like the Colt 1851 and the Remington 1861, we certainly very popular during the mid-late 1800's. The S&W Model 67 and the Webly Bulldog had there following, as well.

But to my mind (and eye), there is a sensual beauty to the elegant curves of a Colt SAA that none of the other handguns of that era came close to matching. And that sensual beauty was never more elegantly balanced than with the 5.5 inch barrel. Colt did away with a lot of the bulky/blocky look that many earlier revolvers had and had no angular features like other contemporary pistols being developed in the last few decades of that era.


I don't doubt that much of my childhood (and adult) preferences were heavily influenced by the ever-present Colt SAA, but I think I'd still harbor a deep affection for it even had it not so dominated the genre.
 
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