Colt police Positive *slightly* out of time

[AJAX22]

Hi there,

I appologise in advance if this has already been covered in another thread, but I recently bought myself a colt police positive that needs a tiney bit of love to make it right.

It functions flawlessly in single action, but in one position, while firing in double action the cylinder is rotated past the engagement point.

It appears that the cylinder catch is skiping out of the groove in that position and alowing the cylinder to rotate too far.

Looking closly at it, it appears that someone with a punch attempted to raise a bit of metal on the lip of the catch grove to get it to catch better but was inefective.

How would I go about fixing something like this? is it something I should send off to have worked on by a pro? what does that kind of repair cost, should I just resign myself to using the gun in single action only?

I only spent 100$ on the pistol, and while the finish is not great, aside from the one problem I believe the gun to have alot of life left in it. the lock up is very strong and tight and the pistol feels to be in good mechanical shape.

Any help or advice that you have is greatly appriciated.

Thank you.

 

[PotatoJudge]

You're going to want to start by checking the bolt timing.

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=218548&highlight=timing

Go down to dfariswheel's post (#5).

The metal lip that looks like a "fix" could be caused by poor bolt timing (disengages the cylinder too late when the trigger is pulled). Figure that out and go from there.

 

[Oohrah]

Don't home smith it. Find someone with Colt experience or check
with the factory. Years ago took a Colt 22 Police Positive Target
with rough cyclinder chambers to Weatherby's. After his polish job,
it had to go back to the factory anyhow, for a new cyclinder and
prawl. Those older Colts have some delicate parts and timing is
important!

 

[AJAX22]

ahhhh 'cylinder throw by' I didn't know there was a word for the problem I'm having.

I'm getting a bit worried looking at what's involved in working on a colt revolver.

do you guys know anyone who is good (but relativly inexpensive?)

 

[PotatoJudge]

What part of the country are you in?

While Dick gave good advice, this can probably be fixed with a set of gunsmith's screwdrivers and Jerry Kuhnhausen's Shop Manual. Depending on where you live and the availability of a good gunsmith, you may be better off doing this yourself.

If parts need replacing it'll be a smith's job for sure, but if it just needs to be adjusted you can probably do it.

Lastly, for $100 plus a $30 book you can tune your gun and learn to work on the old Colt action. I suspect in the coming decades the ability to buy Detective Specials that need work cheap(er) and time them yourself will be a worthwhile skill.

 

[AJAX22]

I'm current a resident of the second most restrictive county of the peoples republic of kalifornistan. (los angeles)

and I'd like to learn how to fix it myself, I'm just a bit nervous about destroying a piece of history.

I'll have to look into that book (I'll probably add it to my next amazon order when I get schoolbooks)

 

[Jim K]

Colt DA revolvers are not easy to work on and in spite of Potatojudge's optimism not always easy to "adjust". I do recommend the book, which I think you will enjoy, but having it is no guarantee that you can time that gun right.

If there is no local pistolsmith who is familiar with those guns (and they are getting thin on the ground), you can try sending the gun to Colt or contact www.cylinder-slide.com.

Jim

 

[PotatoJudge]

I've always considered my optimism one of my best traits .

Jim is right that Colts are relatively hard to work on, and that it's rare to find a local guy that knows what he's doing on these guns. Worse yet is when you think your smith can do it and ends up destroying parts that are very difficult to find in new condition, and which still will have to be fit by a competent gunsmith. Search for dfariswheel's posts on Colt timing, buy the book and study it. You should be able to figure out what's wrong with the gun. From there you can decide for yourself what to do. Don't just open it up and start messing with stuff, and don't take a file or stone to anything without being sure of what you're doing. New, unfit parts are scarce and really do take a pro to fit (that is, you don't have 5 new bolts to learn on before you get one right).

It's a $100 gun. It's hard to justify the cost of a gunsmith, assuming you have to ship it. If it was a Detective Special or Diamondback, sure, send it off. Police Positives just aren't worth nearly as much right now.

A good first step is to make sure the action is cleaned and lubed. Dry, sticky lube can change the bolt drop timing.

Jim- I don't think Colt works on these guns anymore.

 

[Jim K]

Hi, Potatojudge,

I agree that PP's are not that rare but I will buy all the ones I can find in reasonable condition for $100. I think he got that gun cheap because it had problems. Also I didn't know Colt wouldn't work on those guns anymore; I always recommed calling any repair/customizing shop first not only to be sure they do the work, but to get estimates on time and cost.

The economics of gun repair are always a problem. Good gunsmiths should be worth as much as any skilled craftsman, yet the customer is always up against the gun value factor. When I was working as a gunsmith, I usually turned down inexpensive handguns, because it was just not economically feasible to fix them. I could have easily put in hours fixing an old H&R .32 breaktop, but no one wanted to pay the bill on a gun that was worth half what I would have had to charge to fix it.

But, many DIY guys go in with bad screwdrivers and a big file and ruin good guns. So, it's not an easy solution, either way.

Jim

 

[PotatoJudge]

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=148980&highlight=colt+repair+police+positive

This is where I heard that Colt can't do the work. I'm in no way an expert, but dfariswheel knows a little about Colts.

Lots of these guns are in limbo- too well built and historical to discard but too expensive and hard to fix without any collector value.

 

[dfariswheel]

Colt won't work on many older models because they no longer have parts for them.

They are in a situation where if they take a gun in for a simple repair, and then find something wrong that requires parts they don't have, they get a lot of customer complaints about money spent shipping it in for nothing.

For repairs to these older guns I can recommend:

Pittsburgh Handgun Headquarters
1330 Center Ave.
Pittsburgh, PA 15229
(412) 766-6100

Cylinder & Slide, Inc.
245 E. 4th Street
Fremont, NE 68026
(402) 721-4277
http://www.cylinder-slide.com/

Although he normally doesn't do standard repairs, Grant Cunningham has a good rep as a Colt pistolsmith.

http://www.grantcunningham.com/index.html

 

[Jim K]

Thanks, Dfariswheel, I guess I did know that about Colt - memory is not so good anymore (but then it never was). I have made some parts for old guns, and guess that a cylinder bolt could be made, but I am not sure I want to be the one to tackle it. The hand would be pretty easy.

Jim

 

[AJAX22]

Thanks for the information.

The revolver is in pretty good shape overall, it doesn't seem to have much if any wear to the normal areas (cylinder hand, cylinder bolt, etc.)

I'll try cleaning it out before anything else, but the action feels prety smooth in single action and its hard for me to imagin any gunk inside it.

I'll contact the shops that you have recomended about what it will take to repair this gun.

A big motivating factor is the fact that in CA these guns are not on the 'safe' list so the suply of them is very limited and we need to keep as many of them functional as possible.

Any idea how much of my paycheck I should sock away for the repair? I'll probably get the book just to have the informaiton, but I like to budget in advance (I'm a college student so while I do get to spend money on guns, I have to be prudent about it)

 

[dfariswheel]

I'm not up on current pricing, but if it's a simple matter of stretching the hand, I wouldn't think it could cost that much.

If it needs a new hand, it should be well under $100.00.

 

[Old Fuff]

Is this particular revolver a Police Positive .32 or .38? Or is it a Police Positive Special chambered in .32-20 or .38 Special?

If it it's a Police Positive (not Special) chambered in .38 Colt New Police (same as .38 S&W), Numrich has new cylinder assemblies. (www.e-gunparts.com)

 

[PotatoJudge]

Any chance the rachet off the .38 New Police cylinder is the same as the early .38 Special D frames?

Numrich also carries reproduction hands for the D frames.

Lots of smiths have a minimum charge, maybe $40-50, for any work.

AJAX, I had forgotten the Police Positive was no longer on the CA list (as of this or last year, don't remember). It just makes no sense, but we all know this.

 

[Old Fuff]

The ratchet on these revolvers is a seperate piece, that is threaded on to the ejector rod. But they have to be reamed with the chamber(s) to get a perfect fit. Keep in mind that the .38 S&W cartridge case is larger in diameter then the .38 Special, but .38 Special ratchets are still available I believe. In any case I'd try replacing the ratchet before the cylinder assembly, if the cylinder itself was in good shape.

I suggested the cylinder assembly (which includes the fitted ratchet and rod) in this particular instance because I was (or am) under the impression that there was a problem with a damaged bolt notch on the cylinder in addition to possible problems with the ratchet.

However my proposed solution will only work if we are dealing with a .38 Police Positive (not Special) revolver.

 

[AJAX22]

This is a police positive special chambered in 38 special.

I think that the bolt notch on the cylinder is fixable with a little fill and file, but nowadays peoples time is more valuable than the parts to just swap thing sout. Even If I spend another 100-150 fixing this gun up, it'll be a good lil 38 spl shooter for the same price as a beat up taurus around here.

I think I'm going to have to stare at the gun a while longer and think about how it works and what'll be involved in tearing it down and fixing it.

Is there much interchangeability between the older colt pistols?

 

[Old Fuff]

Is there much interchangeability between the older colt pistols?

Not a whole lot. They were made during a time when highly skilled workers were relatively inexpensive. The internal parts were made slightly oversized at critical fit points, and experienced final assemblers would literally hand fit each part. They were VERY good revolvers, but times have changed.

Believe it or not, your problem could proably be solved with a hammer... But the trick is to know where to hit it, and how.

As for fixing it yourself. Looking is for free, but moving (or removing) any metal can get you into trouble fast, and depending on when your particular revolver was made, getting replacement parts is often difficult. Don't do anything foolish...

 

[Bwana John]

The .22 WRF Colt Police Positive I took apart when I was 14 had the same problem after I put it back together