Colt PPS timing issues

[PotatoJudge]

First off, sorry about the long, detailed description.

I have a Colt Police Positive in 38 special that has a couple of minor timing issues. The bolt falls in the cylinder ramps in the last 1/3 instead of the middle and the cylinder doesn't rotate enough for it to fall in place until the trigger is pulled. I've looked at all the threads I could find here and on TFL (thanks Dfariswheel) and there is nothing about how to fix these problems. I'd be okay with the timing issues if:

1. They won't accelerate the wear of parts, that is, if shooting it like this won't just make it worse fast.

2. If the cylinder locks in place before the primer is hit. I've looked and really can't tell which happens first- the hand pushes the cylinder in place as the hammer falls, both of which are dependent on the same trigger pull.

3. If the reliability issues it has are not caused by the timing. It might just be picky about ammo, but shooting some stuff fouls the face of the cylinder binding the gun up and blows residue back into the cylinder making it very hard to unload and reload. It seems like #2 could cause this if the round ignites before the cylinder rotates fully.

I've never had any problems with throw-by, so the bolt falling late doesn't bother me so much (though it does return to the up position in two distinct stages, one where it comes just above flush with the frame and the other where it comes fully up to the cylinder). As to the other problem, it seems like the hand is just a touch too short, but it also doesn't have burrs on the edges or any other signs of hard wear.
I paid $125 for the gun, which locks up tight, has about no finish remaining (though it is smooth and has crisp markings), has a very smooth DA trigger, and has a good bore. Its really not worth the money to ship it anywhere. If anyone here in Houston is going to work on it, it'd be me. Somebody mentioned "stretching" the hand, which I don't know anything about and don't know that I'm up for. I would be willing to buy another hand and fit it to the exact dimensions of the old one except for the notch, which would be left longer. If I were to order a hand from Numerich (they show that they can still be had in the d-frame tune up kit) would it be a new part never fit to a gun? The bolt falling is probably too complicated for me to mess with, as it appears to involve the rebound lever and bolt with some geometry I shouldn't tackle.
A few added bits of info, the ratchet is in good shape and the innards are clean (that is, I cleaned them, paying particular attention to the gun's problem areas and without altering any parts). The gap between the barrel and cylinder is extremely small, but the gap is even and the cylinder rotates smoothly when clean.
I'd really like to keep the gun, but I'm leaning toward getting rid of it. Any advice on how to fix it or if I should keep it would be greatly appreciated.

 

[dfariswheel]

Step one is to buy a copy of Jerry Kuhnhausen's book "The Colt Double Action Revolvers: A Shop Manual, Volume ONE".

Price is about $30.00.

This is a true gunsmiths book on the Colt's and I consider it necessary equipment for all Colt owners, whether you intend to repair it or not.

Just being able to tell whether your Colt is working right or not it's money well spent.

The hand on the Colt's can be stretched, AS LONG as it hasn't been stretched before, AND is within stretching range.
If it is stretchable, this is MUCH preferred to fitting a new hand.
There's a LOT more to that than it looks like.

The hand is NOT stretched where you'd think.
It's stretched in the thin section the rebound lever rests in.

Stretching is done with a modified 1/2" cold chisel.
The chisel is rounded off slightly and polished.
The stretching is done on a good "no-bounce" anvil.
I used a section of railroad rail made into an anvil.

The Kuhnhausen book shows and describes this in detail, AND shows exactly how to correct the late timing of the bolt drop.
Correcting late bolt drop is surprisingly easy, it's just time consuming.

With a little care, some close reading and looking at the action, and you can probably do your own repair in this case.

 

[PotatoJudge]

I have a big cast iron jointer that I hate to use as an anvil, but this is a good cause. I'll get the book and give it a try. Thanks for the help and the good news.

 

[Old Fuff]

You didn't mention the serial number of your gun, and this could make a difference.

It is often easy to get these old Colt's back into time, but the problem is relatively few people know how these days. There are a couple of points you should check:

1. Be sure the cylinder is unloaded, and the close and latch it. After that look at the front of the frame (from the front) under the barrel. See if you can wiggle the crane out away from the frame when you push the cylinder side to side. If you can the crane is sprung, and that could be a big part of your trouble. It can be fixed by an experienced Colt 'smith in under 90 seconds with nothing but a hammer...

Well O.K. - one with a plastic or rubber head...

2. The pin on which the hand revolves must be at right angles to the hand itself. Swing out the cylinder and look at the hand in its window. Be sure that it isn't running outward.

3. You can sometimes retime the cylinder bolt by lifting its tail end and bending it toward you with a small, flat screwdriver blade. But this must be done very carefully, as it is easy to break the bolt too. Of course the "old timer's" knew how to do this, but most are long gone.

4. Jim is absolutely right about Jerry's book, but it is more useful for working on some of the newer Colt's rather then the pre-war models and earlier. That's why I am interested in your serial number - stamped on the frame behind the crane. Swing out the cylinder to see it.

 

[PotatoJudge]

Old Fluff,
When I push on the cylinder it will move out just under 1/64 in. The hand looks like it rides against the sideplate and has a (mostly) even gap on the other side. It might be running slightly out toward the plate, but its not really obvious. The tail end of the bolt is suprisingly thin, so I can see how I'd have to be very careful bending it. The SN is 1789XX on the frame, crane, and sideplate. So you're saying I can fix it with a hammer...

 

[Old Fuff]

So you're saying I can fix it with a hammer...

I did that once to an army officer's Python. He was standing just behind me, but I didn't notice. I just wacked the cylinder a good one and then heard this gasp !!!! He was a bit upset until I explained and showed him his revolver was tighter - but I've been more careful since...

Actually Colt 'smiths used to use a special set of hammers and blocks, and could largely retime a revolver with them.

I think it would help if your crane was straightened a bit, but I don't know anyone in your area that would know how...

However Jerry's book will show the modern way to do it, and a hammer isn't involved.

Your revolver, # 1789xx was made in 1919, so it has a right to be a bit out of order.

 

[GrantCunningham]

Yes, the timing issue is important to both reliability and longevity. Continuing to shoot an out-of-time Colt will result in increased wear to the bolt, cylinder latch pin, and (in severe cases) the rebound lever. Get it fixed - properly.

The gap between the yoke and frame can be caused by any one - or a combination - of problems:

1) Worn latch pin.
2) Worn ratchet - specifically, the recess into which the latch pin fits.
3) Cylinder runout (front bearing surface of the cylinder has worn oversize, allowing the cylinder to "wobble" on the crane.)
4) A bent crane.

It's not unusual to find a Colt that is out of time and exhibits problem #2, particularly with the vintage you have. In my experience, this is the most common of those listed.

Note that only one possible cause is a bent crane; however, bending a crane that is actually in good condition can mask the REAL cause, and often leads to problem #3. This is a case for a careful checkout with the proper tools.

 

[1911Tuner]

Revolversmith

Grant...Good to have ya aboard.

Ladies and laddies...Mr. Grant Cunningham, wheelgun specialist.
Between you, the Old Fuff, and Jim Keenan...we oughta be able to figger out
how to fix about any revolver issue that pops up.

 

[Jim K]

I sort of backed off on this one, but will add a couple of thoughts. First, fire a cylinder SA and then one DA. (Don't touch the cylinder or assist it in any way.)

Look at the firing pin dents in the primers. If they are centered, don't sweat it. Almost any older Colt is "out of time" by the strict guidelines posted here and elsewhere. But as long as the cylinder locks up before the hammer hits, there really is no problem.

The big problem in fixing those guns is not only the lack of gunsmiths but the lack of parts. Colt simply is not making any more parts and the supply of parts like hands, bolts and ratchets is drying up.

Jim

 

[Old Fuff]

Jim obviously has more sense then I do...

The big problem in fixing those guns is not only the lack of gunsmiths but the lack of parts. Colt simply is not making any more parts and the supply of parts like hands, bolts and ratchets is drying up.

There is more to the problem then just this. Original Colt parts were blanks that had to be individually fitted to each revolver. Sometimes over the years these "blanks" were changed dimensionally so one size doesn't necessarily fit all.

To compound the issue, many of the parts offered by companies such as Numrich/The Gunparts Corp. (www.e-gunparts.com) are salvage - removed from otherwise scrapped guns. This means that thay were previously fitted, and are no longer "blanks," and therefore may be worthless in fixing a second revolver.

To say that fixing these guns is a challange is a vast understatement, but some do it anyway.

 

[PotatoJudge]

Thanks to everyone for the help. I got Jerry Kuhnhausen's book yesterday and have been going through it. I'm going to make sure to know what I'm doing (as much as possiible) before deciding if I'm going to try to fix anything. About half the primer dents are off center, and of those none are closer at their edges than 1/32 from the edge of the primer. I don't know of those which are SA and which are DA, but I'll shoot it this weekend and keep records.
So far I've just gone through and checked some parts. The ejector rod is bent a bit, and removing it takes a special tool that I might be able to fashion out of some small brass pipe.
From what I've seen, I think I'll be able to fix the bolt return. If I do that and it goes well then I'll get to the hand. I still have lots to go through over the next few days.

 

[Jim K]

If the firing pin marks are off center, a new hand might be all that is needed. All I got to say is lotsa luck!

Jim

 

[PotatoJudge]

I shot the gun this weekend and the dents on the primers were shifted to the left. It seems like a short hand would cause a right shift. I think a bent crane could cause the left shift, but I can't tell if it is bent. The latch pin and ratchet have enough play that they look like they could cause the crane/frame gap. I didn't ask before, but when pushing the cylinder out should the gun be in lockup? It wasn't when I checked, and there is no gap in lockup and no play. Also, the gap between the ratchet and frame + the barrel/cylinder gap is still very small. That and the fact that the gun shoots to the left (not me, seriously) makes me think the barrel might have been screwed in and not cut back enough. The bolt falling late was an easy fix, but making it return in one movement might not be possible with the condition of the parts. I think that increasing the barrel/cylinder gap would take care of the reliability even with the other problems, but I still need to fix the crane or hand to align the barrel correctly if I can.