Colt rumor?

[Gtscotty]

Actually, that's exactly how it works. There is a DOD contractor who has the full time job of ensuring compliance. In regards to competency your examples are apples and oranges. Not to mention that i trust an independent inspector far more than the claims of a for-profit company given how many ARs we've all seen marketed as mil-spec which were far from it.

Correct, usually the DCMA inspector is civil service and/or retired military. On especially large or important contracts, the DOD usually places a full time DCMA inspector on-site, in the contractor's facility to ensure QC and compliance standards are met. While smaller contractors may only fall under the jurisdiction of a regional DCMA office, I am sure somebody has been placed at the Colt facility to ensure compliance.

You're correct about a DOD inspector being a mandatory requirement for large contracts like this, some contractors can be trusted to maintain their integrity and keep the warfighter in mind when going about their operations, but many can not. It's safer just to inspect them all.

And even if it did why would someone place blind trust in the competency of feds? How fast can you say GSA? How fast can you say Secret Service?

Neither of those agencies are involved in DOD contract QC and compliance managment. But to answer your question, why would you place blind trust in the assumption that a company will give you exactly what you need (and paid for) without occasionally checking their processes and making sure they are on track? There has to be (and always is) some sort of Government oversight on defense contracts in order to try and ensure that our warfighters are reliably getting what we are all paying for.

 

[Slimbo]

No one ever said they would be selling select fire receivers to the public nor do I believe a govt QC is inspecting civilian parts. My place of employment builds govt hardware, they are here inspecting govt hardware only, they don't have time to look at every part we build.

 

[JustinJ]

No one ever said they would be selling select fire receivers to the public nor do I believe a govt QC is inspecting civilian parts. My place of employment builds govt hardware, they are here inspecting govt hardware only, they don't have time to look at every part we build.

I'm certain there is not inspector for the sporting ARs from Colt which is why i went with the LE marked. LE are produced from the same division, Colt Defense LLC, that makes the military ARs. Commercial guns are from Colt Mfg. Co.

 

[moxie]

A QC inspector doesn't inspect each and every part, or each and every process. There is a sampling process. Quality starts long before inspectors get involved, in the attitudes and ethics of the people involved in the whole build process. Quality goods never got that way because of quality control. Quality control on a good day provides a feedback loop to management that the process is on track or off by so much. It can help point to where more emphasis is needed. And, although the particular inspector mentioned in the American Rifleman article may very well be a great guy, he, again, doesn't see everything. And not all government contractors, or feds, are great or even competent; hence my comments on GSA and Secret Service. This from 23 years military (2 years managing the USAF M-16 procurement program), 8 years contractor and 7 years fed service. Having said that, I'm confident Colt and FN are building quality AR-pattern weapons. My point is, that this isn't happening because of fed oversight/QC. That can help.

 

[Gtscotty]

No one ever said they would be selling select fire receivers to the public nor do I believe a govt QC is inspecting civilian parts.

No, of course the DOD is not inspecting Colt's commercial offerings, but If Colt has established good manufacturing and QC processes in order to meet the requirements of their Government contract, you would hope they would apply the same processes to the civilian side of the house. No guarantees though.

A QC inspector doesn't inspect each and every part, or each and every process. There is a sampling process. Quality starts long before inspectors get involved, in the attitudes and ethics of the people involved in the whole build process. Quality goods never got that way because of quality control. Quality control on a good day provides a feedback loop to management that the process is on track or off by so much. It can help point to where more emphasis is needed. And, although the particular inspector mentioned in the American Rifleman article may very well be a great guy, he, again, doesn't see everything. And not all government contractors, or feds, are great or even competent; hence my comments on GSA and Secret Service. This from 23 years military (2 years managing the USAF M-16 procurement program), 8 years contractor and 7 years fed service. Having said that, I'm confident Colt and FN are building quality AR-pattern weapons. My point is, that this isn't happening because of fed oversight/QC. That can help.

Agreed, and well put. Thank you for your service.

 

[Tirod]

You think this means that the military finally decided on a replacement for the M4?

You won't here about it here first. Check with feeds like Soldier Systems, BOLO, The Firearm Blog, or arfcom. Those guys are in the loop and report same day.

Since the current competition has narrowed things down to Colt, FN, and General Dynamics, what gun could be selected other than a Stoner based gun already in current production? The Army parameters pretty much eliminated others.

As for gun store rumors - there's plenty of threads on those. Consider the source. What you may be seeing is your local gun stores buying into the rumor that the next election might spark another panic buying spree. It's been discussed enough on a dozen forums.

Case in point, my business had a major run on generators one winter when an ice storm hit. People needed power to maintain their water heaters, furnace, etc. Then, we had an EF5 hit - truckloads of generators were on site within 24 hours BUT NOT ONE SOLD.

Different circumstances in May when there is NO home to power up, gas runs $50-$75 a day, and you can live out of an ice chest. Plenty of restaurants, motels, and free ice.

I think some people are loading themselves up for a panic buying binge - and you have to ask, What For? At worst, nothing changes, at best, it gets better. Where's the incentive to suddenly need to buy?

How many of you plan to buy a new Colt for $1,500 during December? Or a Stag for $1,100? Or a S&W for $900? Those guys learned their lesson last time, paying double for something they didn't need still stings, and the pallets of ammo they have in storage are likely still there waiting for The Apocolypse!

You're seeing Marketing Managers playing the gun stores, and they are going to be the winners after all. Joe Bob's Bait and Brownings is going to have some nice discounts next January, wait until then.

 

[DPris]

Justin,
Read post 23.
Colt's Manufacturing does not build ARs, they buy them from Colt Defense.
I have been told directly by Colt that ARs offered by both sides of the company are built in the same plant using parts from the same bins & vendors where applicable.
The ONLY differences to speak of have been in configurations (semi-auto vs full auto, flash hiders, etc.), and markings.
Now, even the configurations are blurring with Colt putting flash hiders & so on back on the "civilian" guns.

You are wrong in your apparent thought that the commercial guns are made by Colt's Manufacturing.
Sold by, yes. Made by, no.

And no difference in quality.
Denis

 

[treeprof]

Thanks, Denis.

Post 34 here speaks to this perception that there are 2 separate manufacturing processes or quality levels:

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=89807&page=2

 

[DPris]

I first noticed the return to "full ring" carriers in a CIVILIAN HBar I borrowed from Colt at least four years ago.
When I asked 'em about it, I was told that Colt had originally bowed to ATF pressure to use the cut bolts & other measures to avoid home tinkerers converting to full auto.
Colt's rep said that in recent years the company noticed other AR makers using M16-type full ring carriers without ATF penalties & decided to revert to one carrier for both civilian and military/LE to reduce inventory management costs, among other things.
If the government didn't care...

Further, for the same reasons, since everything was coming out of the same plant anyway, all parts common to both mil & civ ARs were coming out of the same bins.

No difference in quality, no "lesser" grade civilian parts or civilian guns.

The military contract was lost a while back, that's not news, and since it was Colt is simply now expanding the civilian lineup greatly & trying to make up some of the difference in civilian sales.

This is actually a good thing for non-LE buyers, even though it's not been all that hard to obtain an "LE" AR Colt with the features many prefer anyway.
It's taken a while for Colt to change their policies on what they'd allow the civilian guns to have in terms of features, but the Colt ARs have ALWAYS been made in one plant since the divisions (Colt's Mfg & Colt Defense) were first created.

May sound silly for Colt to be buying them from Colt to re-sell, but that's exactly what they're doing.
Denis

 

[Slimbo]

No, of course the DOD is not inspecting Colt's commercial offerings, but If Colt has established good manufacturing and QC processes in order to meet the requirements of their Government contract, you would hope they would apply the same processes to the civilian side of the house. No guarantees though.

You would hope. I build military and commercial hardware and I don't take the commercial any less serious. If I screw up a lot of people could die.

 

[Bobson]

The local gunshop has more Colt AR's then I've seen in a long time. They told me Colt lost the military contract so they will be flooding the market. Anyone know if this is true?

The way they're selling it's probably good news to anyone looking for an AR.

I've been asking about Colt LE6920s at a few different local gun stores here lately, because nobody has em. They all gave me the same answer - they stock em, but it's hard to keep them in because they're always hot sellers. Haven't heard anything about them flooding the market soon.

 

[JustinJ]

I couldn't say for sure wether or not Colt Manf and Defense ARs are truly to the same specs but there is far more to building identical rifles than using the same machines. For example, is the barrel steel in both certified to the same standard? Is QC identical? I've never seen anything to say they are the same besides internet posts of people claiming to be in the know. Also, in regards to tooling machines differently did they not do this in the past on pivot pin and trigger pin sizes?

 

[SpeedAKL]

Is the DoD still purchasing M4s from Colt? Just because Colt lost the sole-supplier contract does not mean that the DoD will no longer purchase the item from them.

 

[conhntr]

I wish colt would sell an a4 clone (not hbar)

 

[DPris]

Justin,
You can keep on arguing against the idea that Colt is telling the truth on this, but it's not getting you anywhere.

Did you not see the info on parts coming out of the same bins for all of their ARs? That very definitely includes barrels.
Colt doesn't spec out two different barrel qualities from their vendor.

Besides hearing it direct from Colt (I'm not "claiming" to be in the know, I converse with Colt periodically & have no reason to believe they'd lie to me about this), consider the logistics.

Colt is not a large company. Colt outsources much of their parts to vendors. Colt has to order in batches & Colt has costs associated with both buying & inventorying those parts.

Even if they were so inclined, it'd raise inventory management costs to maintain two separate parts lines, one for the "good" guns & one for the "rest".
Colt doesn't have money to spare & they've re-organised work flow & other aspects of manufacturing to reduce costs in recent years.

It'd make no sense from a business point of view to construct two different AR lines, one for "real" & one for "play".

Yes- barrel steel is identical. So is QC.
Also yes, they did do different pin sizes. Colt isn't as concerned now with illegal modifications as they were.

If it makes you feel better buying a gun with certain markings over a gun with other markings, by all means go on doing so.
It's not getting you a superior AR, but it's your money.
Denis

 

[elrowe]

They advertise the Colts as being made to the same standards as the military models. To me that says they are not the same thing, nor are they probably made in the same place.

You might be confusing "Mil-Spec" or "STANAG", these describe the quality and performance ranges for military hardware, and several manufacturers can provide the "same" products under military acquisitions policies.

 

[JustinJ]

Justin,
You can keep on arguing against the idea that Colt is telling the truth on this, but it's not getting you anywhere.
...
If it makes you feel better buying a gun with certain markings over a gun with other markings, by all means go on doing so.
It's not getting you a superior AR, but it's your money.
Denis

Well, Denis, i got my Colt LE6720 new for $950 less than a year ago so i'm already where i want to be. I haven't read or seen Colt claim anything. Only you and some others. If you can reference something actually from Colt, i'm more than happy to read it.

The only thing i'm arguing is that it seems perfectly plausible that the ARs could be built to different standards and i've yet to see anything that proves they are or aren't. Maybe you accept claims from strangers over the internet as proof but i require a little more before i accept something as fact.

Colt is not a large company. Colt outsources much of their parts to vendors. Colt has to order in batches & Colt has costs associated with both buying & inventorying those parts.

Even if they were so inclined, it'd raise inventory management costs to maintain two separate parts lines, one for the "good" guns & one for the "rest".
Colt doesn't have money to spare & they've re-organised work flow & other aspects of manufacturing to reduce costs in recent years.

So now you're also "in the know" on Colt's finances? Removing steps, such as in quality control, or purchasing cheaper parts or materials, could easily offset additional inventory management costs which would probably not likely be all that high to begin with.

 

[Owen]

Assuming this is true, which i doubt, i would be concerned about what it would mean for Colt's quality. I prefer Colt because there is a government inspector at their facility ensuring all guns are made to specifications unlike all other AR makers for which we must simply take their word for the most part

What do you think happens to the parts that the Government Inspector rejects?

 

[JustinJ]

What do you think happens to the parts that the Government Inspector rejects?

I'm not sure if that is a rhetorical question but it is a good one. Might they find their way into Colt Manf guns, sold to other AR "manufacturers" or tossed in the scrap pile heap?

Either way the published and internet articles i've read indicate Colt Defense guns made for the military and government are all held to the same standard so that is the way i went.

 

[CZguy]

What do you think happens to the parts that the Government Inspector rejects?

I have never thought about that. It would be interesting to know.

 

[DPris]

Justin,
As I said, I deal with Colt professionally.
I've given you what I've gotten direct from Colt.
I don't have printed material, but even if I did it seems to please you sufficiently to believe there's a conspiracy by Colt to mislead their customers that I doubt you'd believe it anyway.

If you're determined to cling so tenaciously to your erroneous belief, have at it.
You know more about it, obviously, than Colt or I do.

Denis

 

[JustinJ]

I don't have printed material, but even if I did it seems to please you sufficiently to believe there's a conspiracy by Colt to mislead their customers that I doubt you'd believe it anyway.

Not taking the word of random strangers on the internet as gospel does not equate to believing a Colt conspiracy.

If you're determined to cling so tenaciously to your erroneous belief, have at it.
You know more about it, obviously, than Colt or I do

What belief is it that you think i'm clinging to? Again, i've seen no evidence to indicate ARs from Colt Manf are or aren't the same level as those from Colt Defense so i went with the latter. That's not a belief. Thats just not pretending to know something i don't and making the best decision based on the available information. Given i've never seen a non-LE Colt for the price i got my LE for it was a no brainer but to be honest i would have paid a little more for a Colt Defense had i needed to.

Maybe you do know something i don't but you're the one making the claim so the only burden of proof lies with you. If you can't or won't provide it that's fine but it makes no sense to act so offended that I don't take your word given you are a random stranger on a message board.

 

[treeprof]

Not that he needs any help from me, but if you don't know who Denis Prisbrey is, you should spend a few minutes figuring it. Calling him a random guy on the internet and questioning his credentials only serves to make you look even more uninformed.

There is a long history of confusing roll marks on Colt's AR15s, and it's even worse of late. There are plenty of threads on AR-oriented forums about the recent (and historical) mishmash of Colt roll marks that have shown up on the same model gun, including 6920's of late. And about the short-lived disappearance of the LE prefix, and then it's return. And the 6720's w/ and w/out the LEO-only rollmark. Or, better yet, go to Colt's law enforcement page and see the SP model listed as the Law Enforcement Carbine, along with the ones with all of the restricted goodies:

http://www.colt.com/ColtLawEnforcement/Products/ColtLawEnforcementCarbine.aspx

The LE6920 isn't even listed, although it's the 6920 model currently being sold, even through the non-LEO distributors like G and R Tactical (owned by the Grant who published the excerpt of the Colt letter).

See, it's listed here on the "civilian" site:

http://www.coltsmfg.com/Catalog/ColtRifles/ColtCarbinesI.aspx

This isn't that hard to figure out: same gun, same QA, lots of different markings.

 

[ErikO]

Colt, like most American manufacturers, dose not produce finished goods before the contract is set to run and be paid. I bet that their lowers - machined in house or else contracted out in the case of large orders - manufacture semi-auto lowers and then will drill the autosear holes if the lower is needed to fill that contract.

I believe that LCMS might have the new M4 contract; they did get the .308 battle rifle contract with the UK.

 

[Jeff F]

All the holes are drilled during the CNC operation on the lower while its being machined. It would not be cost effective to machine a semi-auto lowers the have run them back through the CNC or jig it up to drill the hole for the auto sear.