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Colt SAA and DA Colt Army Special

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Huntolive

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Okay so I am definitely going to get at least one Colt revolver but more likely at least two in addition to the new model 3-in king cobra I have.
Originally I was thinking of a 2020 python, and when prices and availability settle down on those I will get one.
But having done some research based on something one of you guys sent me I now am very interested in more of a classic colt perhaps even a Single Sction Army or similar, a true version that Samuel Colt would approve of.
But I'm also very interested in a double action colt Army Special.

What should I be looking for and what should I be leery of or what weaknesses do these have that I should know if I get into these older models?
I would want to shoot them occasionally.
I guess I'd be looking for either a 45 Colt 38 Special or lastly a 44 special.
How strongly are these built can they take 45 colts plus p? It sure would be a hoot to take a deer with one I'm supposed thinking of the SAArmy for that.
 
The Army Special is about the same as the Official Police, you can shoot it all you want, just no +P.
 
Sam Colt may not have approved of the SAA. IIRC he did not want his revolvers to have top straps above the cylinders. He was already deceased when this model was made.
 
If you must have a Colt stick with your original idea
of getting a Python 2020. I believe in another threat
you lusted for one.

Unless you're really into gun maintenance, the SAA
or something like an Official Police is a bad idea.
 
Sam Colt may not have approved of the SAA. IIRC he did not want his revolvers to have top straps above the cylinders. He was already deceased when this model was made.
If you must have a Colt stick with your original idea
of getting a Python 2020. I believe in another threat
you lusted for one.

Unless you're really into gun maintenance, the SAA
or something like an Official Police is a bad idea.

Okay so not that I necessarily care that much what Sam Colt would have approved of but if not an SAA what would be the prior model that he would have?

Why are colt official Police, Army special and SAA so much work to maintain?

Would it be reasonable to make a shooter out of an SAA for hunting or was it more be strictly if I had a hard-on for a Colt historical piece?

Yeah maybe I should just settle down and get a 6-in 2020 python and a four or five inch pre-model 27 or 27-2 in a rich blue

By the way any ideas on which is more collectible 4.25 in python or the 6-in and what is better in any particular way?
Obviously I realize the 4.25 is practical to carry whereas the six inches not and a 6-in would be better for hunting but I really don't think I'd ever take it out in the woods.
I am going to buy a python 20/20 possibly today but still torn as to whether I want a 4.25 or 6-in. Thoughts and advice on that?
 
Colt New Service

Full size, robust (for a 100 year old Colt), smooth, and a variety of chamberings. Most common is probably the M1917 Army model in 45 ACP. I have one of these and a 1923 mfg in 38-40.

index.php


If you want the ultimate double action Colt, forget the python and find a Shooting Master.
 
Why are colt official Police, Army special and SAA so much work to maintain?
They arent. Keep em clean, lubed, and check them for timing and endshake wear occasionally- thats it. Select a mechanically sound example in the first place and its unlikely you will shoot enough rounds through them to cause issues.

The E and I-frame Colts such as the Official Police and Army Special are perfectly capable of firing +P .38spl. ammunition with no ill effect, save perfectly normal increased wear rates.

The smaller D-frames, such as the Detective Special and Police Positive can as well, but Colt advised to have them checked for frame stretch (!) every couple thousand rounds if subjected to a continuous diet of +P.
 
When I mentioned the older Colts maintenance
I was thinking of parts replacements, the less
than desirable design aspects of some. For
instance the new Python 2020 has less parts
than the older model and even duplicates
the S&W design for the cylinder bolt/stop. The
new hammer/trigger spring is now called a
"U" design rather than the old "V" design.

Over the years I've owned nearly a dozen SAAs.
Used several in Cowboy Action Shooting.
Fun guns but you really have got to know its
peculiarities. Huntolive, just a point of fact
but the SAA is held together with 13 screws
and I'm not counting the two-piece grip's screw.
A few of those screws duplicate but many others
are singularly different sizes.
 
Okay I get it getting parts and so forth is going to be difficult and old design elements may not be as sturdy or efficient so could run into potential nightmares.
 
Oh my goodness.

Entire books have been written just about the Single Acton Army, and you want to know everything there is to know about them in a post on a web forum?

Let's start with the Colt Army Special, less to bite off.

Introduced in 1908 and manufactured until 1927. Originally chambered for 32-20, 38 Colt, 38 Smith and Wesson and 41 Colt. This one shipped in 1921 and it is chambered for 38 Special. This one shipped with hard rubber grips.

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Built on a frame slightly larger than a K frame Smith and Wesson 38 Special. All the revolvers in this photo are chambered for 38 Special. Left to right they are a Colt Police Positive Special, the Colt Army Special, a S&W K-38 and a S&W Model 14-3.

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The truth is I have not put a whole lot of rounds through this Army Special. However it has the same 'V' shaped hammer spring as most other Colt double action revolvers. More difficult to find a smith who is used to working on them than a S&W revolver. Colts like this are often said to go out of time more easily than S&W revolvers, I have no direct experience with that either.

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By 1927 Colt decided to stop pursuing military contracts for this revolver and to concentrate on law enforcement agencies instead. At that time the name of this model was changed to Official Police. It is the same revolver, just a different name. The Official Police was produced up to 1969. Originally chambered for 32-20 as well as 41 Colt, those chamberings were dropped in 1942 and 1930, respectively. Chambered for 38 Special through out the production run, 22 Rimfire was added in 1930. Total production of the Official Police was about 425,000 units.





The Colt Single Action Army is the iconic Cowboy revolver. Although many different revolvers were produced during the period of the Old West, the SAA is the most ubiquitous.

Colt had been producing Percussion (Cap & Ball) revolvers since 1837 with the Paterson Colt. It would take an entire book to document all the C&B revolver models produced by Colt, but off the top of my head a few are the Paterson, the gigantic Walker Colt, the Dragoon series, the 1851 36 caliber Navy and the 1860 44 caliber Army. Probably a few others I am not coming up with right now.

In 1855 Smith and Wesson obtained control of the Rollin White patent. Rollin White was a Colt employee. At a time when all revolvers were C&B, meaning they had to be loaded by pouring loose powder into the chambers, then ramming a ball on top, and finally capping the nipples at the rear of each chamber with a percussion cap, White came up with the novel idea of boring the chambers completely through the cylinder, so a cartridge could be inserted into the rear of the chambers. Metallic cartridge manufacturing was in its infancy at this time, and loading a revolver with cartridges for much quicker reloads was a revolutionary idea. White made up some crude demonstration models of his idea and presented them to Colt, and in what must have been the worst business decision of his life, Colt passed on the idea. So White obtained a government issued patent on the idea himself in 1854. A year later S&W came knocking at White's door. Daniel Wesson and Horace Smith had formed a new company. Wesson had designed a tiny 22 caliber revolver with a bored through cylinder to accept a tiny 22 caliber cartridge we would call the 22 Short today. In his research into the project Smith discovered White had already patented his idea for a bored through chamber. A deal was struck where White gave S&W exclusive rights to manufacture revolvers using his patented idea of a bored through cylinder and S&W paid White a royalty of $.25 for every revolver they manufactured. The story gets more interesting, but suffice it to say that all through the Civil War Colt, Remington and all the other revolver manufacturers were not legally able to produce a cartridge revolver, the Civil War was fought mostly with obsolete C&B revolvers. During this time S&W was producing 22 and 32 Rimfire cartridge revolvers. S&W did not have any government contracts at this time, but many soldiers bought the largest revolver S&W was making at that time, the #2 Old Army. This was a six shot Tip Up style revolver that fired a 32 Rimfire cartridge. Although it was much faster to reload than a C&B revolver, the 32 Caliber Tip Ups were not as powerful as the big 44 C&B revolvers that Colt, Remington, et al were producing at the time. S&W experimented with a 44 caliber Tip Up, but the mechanism was not strong enough, so no Tip Ups were ever manufactured larger than 32 calbier.

This is a S&W #2 Old Army pictured with six rounds of 32 Rimfire ammunition. It left the factory in 1863.

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White's patent did not expire until 1869, four years after the Civil War ended. At that time S&W was sure all the other revolver manufacturers would have cartridge revolvers designed and ready to sell, so they came up with a revolutionary new design known as a Top Break. The selling point of the Top Breaks was not only did they accept metallic cartridges, but the barrel and cylinder rotated down to reload and empty brass was automatically ejected as the barrel swung down. Besides being not very strong, in order to reload a Tip Up one undid a latch at the bottom of the barrel, rotated the barrel up, removed the cylinder and poked the empties out with the rod at the bottom of the barrel.

Like this. The process was reversed to reload.

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This is a S&W New Model Number Three from a little bit later, but it illustrates how the barrel and cylinder rotated down and the empties were automatically ejected on a Top Break. In this photo the barrel and cylninder have been rotated about halfway and the ejector is starting to rise and eject the empties.

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Colt had not been asleep during the time that led up to the White patent expiring in 1869. They came up with several 'Conversion Models' that were able to use the idea of loading a cylinder with cartridges from the year. The first was the Thuer Conversion that used an odd cartridge with a reverse taper in an attempt to get around the White patent. It was not a commercial success. Later they came up with the Richards Conversion, the Richards-Mason Conversion, and finally the Open Top. The first two used parts of from C&B inventory. Some had the cylinders cut down to accept cartridges, some had new cylinders made. The Open Top was actually designed from the ground up as a cartridge revolver, but it is usually lumped in with the Cartridge Conversions.

This is a Richards Conversion pictured with a few of the 44 Colt rounds it was chambered for. As can be seen, the C&B loading lever is gone replaced by an ejection rod screwed to the side of the barrel.

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The rear of the cylinder of the Richards Conversion was cut back, cutting away the area where the nipples had been, and a Breech Plate was fastened to the frame to take up the space. A loading gate was attached to the Breech Plate so cartridges could be loaded and unloaded by rotating them past the loading gate, just like on the later Single Action Army.

This photo shows the Breech Plate with the loading gate open.

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The Richards Conversion also featured a revolutionary concept, a frame mounted firing pin.

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The Richards-Mason Conversion made improvements to the earlier Richards Conversion by making some of the parts less complicated and simpler to manufacture.


Remington had not been asleep at the switch at this time, there were a number of cartridge conversions done to Remington C&B revolvers done at this time. Remington even contracted with S&W for the use of the White patent to convert over 4500 revolvers to use conversion cylinders in 1868. There were other conversion revolvers built at this time too.

By 1872 William Mason, of Richards-Mason fame had been working on a 'top strap' revolver to replace the conversion models. The White patent had expired several years earlier, and in 1873 Colt obtained their first contract with the Government to supply the new Single Action Army revolver. Hence the name. It was chambered for the brand new 45 Colt cartridge, which had about 40 grains of Black Powder inside under a 250 grain lead bullet.

Colt Single Action production is generally recognized to comprise three Generations. The First Generation stretched from 1873 until 1940, when production was halted to gear up for WWII. The 1st Gens were chambered for no less than 30 cartridges. No, I am not going to list them all. After the War ended Colt had no plans to reintroduce the SAA. They felt there would be no interest in such an old fashioned revolver. But thousands of GIs returning home took advantage of the GI Bill to go to college and buy homes. And many of those homes had brand new television sets with cowboys riding through living rooms all over the country. This generated new interest in the old 'cowboy gun'. In 1953 an enterprising young man named Bill Ruger produced a small 22 rimfire single action revolver and they sold like hot cakes. In 1955 he made a bigger one chambered for 357 Magnum. Colt finally saw the writing on the wall and reintroduced the SAA in 1956. This was the 2nd Gen and it was produced until 1975. At that time some design changes were made and the 3rd Gen was introduced and that has been made ever since.

Standard 2nd Gen chamberings were restricted to 45 Colt, 44 Special, 357 Magnum and 38 Special. Currently the Colt website is only listing 45 Colt as a chambering for the 3rd Gen, but I'm pretty sure a few other chamberings were available at one time.


Standard information about all generations of the Single Action Army:

No, they are not compatible with 45 Colt +P ammunition. First off, there is no official SAAMI standard for 45 Colt +P ammunition, it is what ever each manufacturer thinks is appropriate.

45 Colt SAA revolvers should only be fired with SAAMI max 45 Colt ammo that develops no more than 14,000psi. Yes, this is open to debate, but you will not find me shooting any of that more powerful stuff in my Colts.

This is the rear of a 45 Colt 2nd Gen cylinder. Notice how thin the webs of steel are between each chamber. More significant, but not visible in this photo is how thin the metal is between the 'top' of each chamber and the bottom of the bolt stop cuts. Only a few thousandths in most cases. That is why '+P 45 Colt ammunition' should never be fired in a SAA chambered for 45 Colt.

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Yes, 357 Magnum SAA revolvers can be safely fired with standard SAAMI Max 357 Magnum Ammunition. The cylinder is just as large, but the holes are much smaller. The SAA was first chambered for 357 Magnum shortly after S&W developed the cartridge in 1935. They were safe to shoot then and the steel is stronger now so they are still safe to shoot with factory 357 Magnum ammo.

A 44 Special SAA will not chamber a 44 Magnum round. Obviously 44 Special pressures should be kept to standard 44 Special levels.



While I am talking about ammunition, Colt did not factory warranty the SAA for Smokeless ammunition until 1900, part way through 1st Gen production. Up to that time Colt did not feel the steel they were using (actually iron in the very early frames and cylinders) was strong enough for the pressures of Smokeless ammunition. By 1900 they felt confident their metallurgy had progressed enough for the pressure of Smokeless ammunition. A year or two later they began stamping 'VP' inside an upside down triangle on the front left of the trigger guard. This stands for Verified Proof, and it means the firearm has been proofed for Smokeless ammunition. Colt revolvers manufactured before 1900 should not be fired with modern Smokeless ammunition, although this gets argued all the time. This is a Bisley Colt that left the factory in 1909, so it is safe to fire with Smokeless ammunition. I never do, I only fire it with ammunition loaded with Black Powder.

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Let's look inside a SAA for a moment. The part between the hammer and the frame is the hand. Notice the spring attached to it. Notice too the spring with two legs between the frame and the trigger. That is the bolt/trigger spring. It operates the bolt, which is the part just in front of the trigger, and the trigger. (the bolt is the part that pops up out of the frame to lock the cylinder in position for firing)

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For many years, shooters familiar with the Colt SAA have known they are not safe to carry fully loaded with six rounds and the hammer down on an empty chamber.

These are the lock parts of a SAA. The upper arrow is pointing to the so called 'safety cock' notch on the hammer. The lower arrow is pointing to the tip of the trigger called the sear. The sear fits into each of the cocking notches on the hammer when the hammer is cocked back different amounts. Notice how thin the sear is. When the hammer is brought back to the 'safety cock' position the firing pin is pulled back from the primer of a cartridge under the hammer. But if a strong force is applied to the hammer spur, such as dropping the gun on its hammer, there is an excellent chance the tip of the sear will break off, or the overhanging lip of the cocking notch will break off. If that should happen there is an excellent chance the firing pin will strike a cartridge under the hammer with enough force to fire the cartridge. This has been documented many times. So it is only safe to carry a SAA with five rounds in the cylinder, with an empty chamber under the hammer. If you want to safely load six, buy a Ruger. All modern Rugers come with a transfer bar inside that makes them completely safe to carry fully loaded with six rounds.

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This is the way the split bolt/trigger spring sits in the frame. One leg pushes the bolt up, the other leg pushes the trigger back.

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The bolt/trigger spring is the part most subject to failure in a Colt. Over time as it flexes over and over again stress risers can be created and it can fail. Just like this. Don't get me wrong, the spring is not going to break the first time you shoot the gun. I have Colts that are over 100 years old with their original springs. But this spring can break. There are modern springs made of music wire that can easily be substituted for this spring. I forget right now, but I'm pretty sure at least one of my Colts has a wire bolt/trigger spring inside.

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The hand spring is also fairly subject to breaking. Right at the curve where it is peened into the hand. Again, not guaranteed to break, most of my Colts have their original hand springs inside. But they can break. Most modern replicas of the SAA come with a coil spring that operates the hand, very similar to a Ruger. Those springs never break.




Uberti has recently changed the design of their replicas of the SAA to include a retractable firing pin in the hammer. The jury is still out on this, but the idea is to make them safe to carry fully loaded.



I see somebody has already commented on how difficult to maintain the SAA is. It is not. Just keep it clean, check to see the screws are tight, they tend to loosen from firing, and be aware the bolt/trigger spring or the hand spring may fail at some point. Colts are so simple to take apart I can almost do it blind folded. Almost, not quite.

For your viewing pleasure, a few Colts.

This pair of 2nd Gens are my usual Main Match pistols in Cowboy Action shooting. The one at the top left the factory in 1973, the one at the bottom in 1968. Both are chambered for 45 Colt but I only shoot them with ammunition loaded with Black Powder.

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Another pair of 2nd Gens chambered for 45 Colt. Unlike the pair above that I have been shooting for many years, this pair is in almost like new condition. The one at the top of the photo shipped in 1973, the one at the bottom in 1963.

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A 1st Gen Bisley that shipped in 1909. Chambered for 38-40. Almost no blue left from over 100 years. This is the one in the photo above of the VP on the trigger guard. Yes, the ejector rod handle is bent and I am leaving it just like that so I don't break it off trying to straighten it.

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Another 1st Gen 38-40 Bisley that shipped in 1907. The colors of the Case Hardened frame and the blue are still quite strong on this one.

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Okay I get it getting parts and so forth is going to be difficult and old design elements may not be as sturdy or efficient so could run into potential nightmares.
Meh, they made gazillions of Official Police derivitives over the decades, so parts arent that hard to come by- but finding a professional 'smith to agree to work on them can be challenging.

Find a clean example of any old gun, really, shoot a couple hundred rounds of appropriate ammunition a year, clean, lube, and fuggetaboutit.

If you start with a ragged out gun, or shoot thousands of hot rounds through it, things will start to wear out and break- it happens.

Its true, if maximum revolver durability is the goal at the expense of refinement, or stylistic pleasure, a Ruger is the way to go.

But if you want old Colt class, just be realistic about their limitations and enjoy them for the wonderful machines they are.
 
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I got an Army Special around five years ago. It's 38 special, made in the early 20's. It was inexpensive... less than $300 OTD.

I got it because I wanted to own a Colt revolver - I'd never owned one before. I wanted one in a caliber that's easy to obtain ammo for. I only buy firearms I expect to shoot from time to time.

The sights are small, but a little better than my K frame from the same era. The trigger isn't bad. It shoots better than I do.

I put 50 rounds through it every once in awhile and doubt I'll wear it out in my lifetime.

 
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I have both a genuine Colt SAA and two Army Specials.
If I were going to buy one or the other just to have a genuine Colt, i'd pick the Army Special. Here is my reasoning.

The Army Special had consistent quality across the entire production. The SAA did not. Every Army Special is going to be pretty much as good as every other Army Special in terms of build quality. Colt SAA's varied quite a bit in quality depending on the production era, and even between individual examples. Generally, a more expensive Army Special is going to be more expensive because its in a better condition than lower priced examples, so, generally speaking, you are actually getting "more gun" for your money the more money you spend.

The thing about Colt SAA's is they can be top tier quality, or they can be worse quality than an Uberti, but because they have a prancing pony on the side, they will all be expensive. I have one of the latter. My Colt SAA cost me $1600, and has a build quality that is lower than a $500 Uberti. You kind of have to know what you are looking at to get a Colt SAA that has the build quality to justify the price. If you are buying a SAA and insist on a Colt, I would personally make sure you do your research and take an in person, very hard look over of any Colt you are interested in before investing that kind of money.

Here is a fairly detailed thread I posted not too long ago that illustrates my personal experience with Colts quality issues.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/saa-comparison-colt-2nd-gen-vs-usfa.882768/
 
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Colt Army Specials will have that typical pre-war build quality.

SAAs are very easy to take apart for cleaning, easier than a 1911. The average shooter won't wear out either one.
 
Wow that's a lot of good information to absorb but I appreciate it.
Does anybody else just hate the look of the exposed ejector rod?
It seems it could pose issues to the gun when shooting and get bent or caught on something. Are there any advantages to the exposed ejector rod or had they just not thought of putting a shroud over it yet?
I'm talking about on guns like the Army special obviously not the SAA.

So if a world war I era Army special were fully loaded it would not be considered safe to carry correct?
In today's seller's market what should a functionally solid not mint but decent looking Army special cost?

And what about accuracy in the SAA?
If you have a good one can they produce the type of accuracy of a Freedom Arms?
Are they as or more accurate in the right hands than a python in single action?
 
All the revolver makers were dealing with the same problems at about the same time. Making sure a double action revolver was safe to carry fully loaded was one of the issues they faced.

Iver Johnson invented the transfer bar at the turn of the Century. No, Ruger did not invent it, IJ had patented it many years earlier. Ruger just used the same idea.

Around 1905 Colt developed what they called the Positive Lock. As in Colt Police Positive or Colt Police Positive Special.

The Positive Lock was the type of hammer block Colt used.

The hammer block is visible in this photo of my Army Special. The small square shaped piece between the frame and the hammer.

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In this photo, the hammer has been cocked and the hammer block has slid down in a groove, allowing the hammer to fall all the way when the trigger was pulled.

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As I said earlier, this particular Army Special shipped in 1921, but the model first appeared in 1908 and I would be very surprised if Colt did not include the Positive Lock in the first units.


The exposed cylinder rod with Colts is a different story, and it brings up one of the sore points always raised between S&W enthusiasts and Colt enthusiasts.

The cylinder of a Colt double action revolver rotates clockwise when viewed from the rear. The cylinder of a Smith and Wesson double action revolver rotates counter-clockwise when viewed from the rear. They are that way because Smith and Wessons and Colts are kind of made as mirror images of each other. The S&W on the left has the side plate on the right, the Colt on the right has the side plate on the left. The hands have to lay on top of the triggers, so the S&W hand pushes its cylinder counter clockwise and the Colt hand pushes its cylinder clockwise.

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Colt enthusiasts like to say Colt cylinders rotate the 'correct' way because as the cylinder rotates the hand is pushing it towards the frame. They like to say S&Ws rotate the 'wrong' direction because the hand is pushing the cylinder away from the frame. The idea is a cylinder that rotates away from the frame will tend to not lock up as tightly as a cylinder that rotates towards the frame.

I am both a Colt and a Smith & Wesson enthusiast, but I have many more Smiths than Colts, so guess which side I take in this argument.

The first 38 caliber S&W revolver with a swing out cylinder was the Model 1899. It had no lug under the barrel to latch the front of the extractor rod.

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Every S&W revolver built since then has had a spring loaded latch built into the front of the extractor rod, and a spring loaded plunger mounted in a lug under the barrel. This view of a Model 1917 partially disassembled shows the spring loaded plunger mounted in the under barrel lug. The mushroom shaped cap at the front of the extractor rod has a hollow that accepts the plunger. This actually makes the extractor a complicated assembly. There is a spring loaded rod running through the center of the extractor rod. When the thumb piece is pushed forward to open the cylinder, the internal rod is pushed forward to disengage the latch at the front of the extractor rod. Colt extractor rods are much simpler, they don't need all those mechanics because there is no latch at the front of the extractor rod.

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So which is better? I think the theory about cylinders rotating the wrong direction is full of hooey. A cylinder would have to be very gummed up, and resist rotating for the 'wrong direction' idea to really matter. I think the S&W design is better because a S&W cylinder is latched both at the front and at the rear. Colt cylinders are only latched at the rear.

So what does all this have to do with bent cylinder rods? Yup, whack a Colt just right and you can bend the cylinder rod. The locking lug at the front of a S&W rod does provide a little bit of protection.

Take a look at some of the most recent Colt Detective Specials. Some of them have a shroud under the barrel to protect the cylinder rod. No latch up front, but there is a shroud.

The shroud, or what ever it is called on a S&W revolver affords protection, but there is still a spring loaded latch built in too.

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Then there is the Triple Lock, but that is a whole nother story for another day.


Regarding the accuracy of a SAA, they are just as accurate as any other revolver.

Many complain that the old fashioned sights on a SAA are crude and difficult to use. These are the guys who think revolver sights have to huge, and adjustable. But if you know how to shoot a revolver with old fashioned fixed sights, they are just as accurate as any other revolver. By the way, that is a 2nd Gen Colt on the left, an Uberti Cattleman on the right. Notice the Colt has a squared off rear sight while the Uberti has a V groove rear sight. The V groove is the way 1st Gen Colt rear sights were. The rear sight was squared off like this for the 2nd Gen. The Uberti Cattleman rear sight is more in keeping with what 1st Gen Colt rear sights were like.

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This is the tiny rear V rear sight on one of my 1st Gen Bisleys.

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If you want a SAA with adjustable sights, you can try to find a New Frontier.

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Thanks Driftwood you are a legend in your own right. Here are most of my 357's other than a Dan Wesson 15-2 Monson MA. with a two four and six inch barrel.
It would seem Dan Wesson agreed with Colt about the direction of cylinder rotation correct?
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