Combat Shotguns: Dying?

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Yes, the shotgun was banned. One should learn History before commenting on it. It was restricted to the guarding of prisoners and was not used in the European Theater during WWII. The Marines used it in the Pacific Theater because Japan never signed any accords. It was used in Viet Nam because that was an Insurrection by the Viet Gong and the North Vietnamese who gave them assistance also never signed the accords. It is also being used by the US Military Special Forces units and their Armorers sit in the same classes at the factory I attend every three years.

Shotguns are prohibited for use in Law Enforcement in most all European countries. However, they are making a come back there on some Counter Terrorism Teams. They are still considered to destructive to use by most European Law Enforcement.

Also, I am not a Viet Nam Vet and have never claimed to be as I never left CONUS during my time in the Corps.

I state from experience and of course fact that a 12ga shotgun has more initial firepower then a SMG or an AR-15. So, as I always say. "If you're going to a gun fight, take a shotgun". If you can't take a shotgun, don't go.
Yeah I've heard shotguns were well liked in Vietnam by the pointman since the firepower was high and hit probability was high. When they ran dry they would fall back to reload and the rest of the squad would open up.

But I admit, I am no expert. But I am learning more every day...
 
AI&P - citation please

Please provide a citation to support your claims: "A weapon that was so deadly and destructive when deployed in the trenches of WW I that it was banned for use in future wars" and "Yes, the shotgun was banned. One should learn History before commenting on it."

The consistent and on-going use by the U.S. military indicates otherwise. Are you really going to argue that it was legal to shoot POWs in the European Theater with a shotgun but not active combatant soldiers? I can find nothing under the Hague conventions that calls for a banning of shotguns.

Every source I see on the net confirms that "The combat shotgun and its lead-and-antimony buckshot (or shot) ammunition are consistent with the law of war obligations of the United States."
 
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"I see a number of benefits to my little semi automatic 20. For one the very real possibility that said intruder will question the wisdom of being in the stairway when he finds himself peppered with shot."

Geez, how high are your stairs? I figure the slant range on mine to be about five yards. The old rule of thumb was an inch of spread per yard of range. A saucer size pattern is about as easy to miss with as a bullet. And unless about no 12 shot, a hit will be a lot harder than VP Cheney "peppering" the other hunter.

I have a home defense shotgun and it is fine for that but it would not be my first choice in the open.
I also consider the Ayoob Technique. If you find your shotgun empty or jammed, put it down and draw your pistol. If an opponent should then pick up your shotgun, he is not well armed.
 
Indeed it did sir, while you make strong points on the carbine... I am seeing myself in the uncomfortable position of being at the top of the stairs with an unwanted intruder on the ground floor. Now I am quite capable of using my carbine, when cool and detached, effectively and accurately. In the situation I am imagining I am anything but. In that vision I see a number of benefits to my little semi automatic 20. For one the very real possibility that said intruder will question the wisdom of being in the stairway when he finds himself peppered with shot. I can also imagine the louder report of the shotgun strengthening that doubt. Add to what I see the advantage the closer the intruder gets to the firing line the more effective the shot will be due to patterning and velocity.

If I were chasing someone down the lane my carbine would be my first choice. However, I have the attitude once they are out of the house there is time to wait for the sheriff's office to get there so I have no reason to chase them anywhere but out of the stairway.

I'll try to address some:

Now I am quite capable of using my carbine, when cool and detached, effectively and accurately. In the situation I am imagining I am anything but.

Depending on choke, shot size, and the length of your stairs, your pattern might not actually open up much at all. I've patterned OO loads (Flight Control Wads) for instance that still required some cool and detached aiming at household distances. This kind of falls in line with the whole "don't have to aim a shotgun" thing, which with a little patterning is proved false. Also I get to see guys miss targets in matches all the time with shotguns at well within HD distances under the pressure of a just a timer and an audience.....

I can also imagine the louder report of the shotgun strengthening that doubt.

Seriously doubt you'll find a 20GA louder than a 16" barreled .223/5.56. IF anything they're within a few decibels of each other. Buuuuuut I wouldn't based my HD selection on this criteria, or any other type of sound (racking for instance) in having any effect on an adversary. Psychological stops often happen, but they often don't.

For your questions, what if the fight does move outdoors and at a greater distance? Slugs might well be the answer, but that requires another addition to training. Now you've got to practice slug transitions....and under stress????

What if greater precision is required in doors? I've been to a shotgun class where we practiced "scalloping" a target with the edge of the pattern:

1. Although I got pretty good at it, it to requires practice.

2. Worked well on a cardboard silhouette, but not something I'd want to try for real with a family member being held.

3. The pellets that were consciously held of the target went somewhere else....

One other aspect in favor of the carbine is that in the Non-NFA versions: shotgun at 18.5" barrel VS .223 at 16" barrel; the carbine is slightly more maneuverable. Go with a pinned flashhider and you can lose another 1.5" or so in OAL.

Bottom line for me, everyone envisions what their fight "should" be, based on plans and preps, but as we say at work, "the enemy gets a vote". I try not to select a weapon based on my version of an ideal scenario.

The 2 big pluses I see for the shotgun in an HD scenario when compared to a carbine are:
1. Expense
2. Greater effect on target (withing range limits)

Everything else IMHO tilts towards the carbine. Since the carbine in most commercial loadings is "effective enough", then #2 is somewhat muted or the "greater effect" does not cancel out the other drawbacks .

YMMV,

Chuck
 
"Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth."
--Mike Tyson

Nine .32s, or a 437gr .75 caliber slug at 1400fps, or a bunch of .22s, one at a time...................
decisions, decisions :rolleyes:
 
I went to the gun closet and safe yesterday to get some .22 ammo and just for giggles pulled my Mossberg 500 GR out.

It was gasping for breath and staggering about so I gave it CPR and put it on oxygen for a bit and it is no longer dying.

Sorry could not resist.

Fords, Chevys, Hondas, whatever.

Different folks will want different things at different times.

If the powers that control police purchases and operations decide tomorrow to go back to the "combat shotgun" they will be more popular again.

If the folks in DC or the state house flat outlaw "black rifles", Combat Shotguns will be more popular.

Out where I live a shot gun gives me more options. What was that bump in the night and why are the horses screaming? Load of #6 pretty much ends the threat of a rabid 'coon or fox ( without endangering the neighbors) , load of #1 Buck or larger pretty much takes care of bad people threating my family the entire length of my house, a slug stops the escaped tiger or lion from up the road at a more comfortable distance if need be. (not joking about that last)

On the other hand there is something comfortable about having a shortened lightened version of my old service rifle when needed.

My guess is that more Combat Shotguns are bought that way from the factory in a year now than in any decade before 1970, so are "Combat Shotguns dying?"

NO!

-kBob
 
For your questions, what if the fight does move outdoors and at a greater distance?

While it's always nice to "what if", I'd like to know how, in the context of Officers Wife's scenario (which is mine too) the fight is going to move out doors and at greater distance.

Are you proposing they we'd jump off the upstairs balcony with long gun in hand like a Die Hard action hero and continue shooting as we hop fences to get away (or shoot at BG while he's hoping fences trying to get away).

Or that we're going to shoot our way past the BG down the stairs, out the front door, and into the streets in A-Team like fodder/fashion?

While the Hollywood shootout is is often in the back of people minds when thinking of scenarios, it's about as likely to happen to Joe/Jane citizen as being struck by lightning while fighting a grizzly bear while holding the $500 million winning lottery ticket.

While I am adding a bit of humor to this, I seriously can't think of any realistic scenario that has a remotely reasonable chance of happening, that the fight is going outside and at greater distance in this context.

As far as aiming goes, no one said you don't have to aim a shotgun. Even if the pattern only opens up 6", that's still about 5.75" more accuracy forgiveness than any carbine.

(ETA: From that angle, (downward angle from upstairs) any stray shot that might go through wall(s) to the outside will go into the grass in my yard.)


I'm not advocating a shotgun. It's just that these particular rationalized discounting of the shotgun, in her/mine scenario, just don't seem to hold up, imo.

Of course, I could be wrong and just not able to envision the scenario that you do... which is why I asked how is the fight going from indoors upstairs to outdoors at longer distance?
 
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I like shotguns because I'm more comfortable with them.

But a rifle is a better weapon from 0-600 yards. I don't really see how you can argue a shotgun is better for a defensive weapon. 00 buck is not like 9 9mm bullets. It's like 9 36 cal cap and ball pistol balls, pure lead. If shotguns are better why did police move away from them?


HB
 
I think it is important to stress that much of the recoil of the shotgun is a direct result of the power of the shotshell being used.

I don't like shooting 00 Buck. Never have. It is uncomfortable for me.

However #4's are more comfortable to shoot. Many police agencies use #4 instead of 00. Lighter recoil and more shot downrange improves hits probability.

Then we can move to #6's. Bird hunters can attest to the damage a solid hit of #6's on a pheasant. It can ruin a lot of meat.

For home defense lighter recoiling loads such as #6 accomplish the same task as 00. The distances in most homes are close probably not more than 30' (10 yards).

The best choice is the 12 gauge. There are a vast selection of shotshells and specialty shells that cover about every situation imaginable.
 
danez71,

IF you can't envision the possibility of having to use your HD gun outdoors or at a greater distance, then in your circumstances the shotgun is the right tool. Maybe the word "move" is the wrong term, what if (I know another "what if") the fight starts out doors and you had to retrieve a weapon?

How many of us have a ready rack to chose a gun based on that particular scenario? But that's why everyone does there own risk assessment.

As for the aiming, this was the statement I was replying to:
I am seeing myself in the uncomfortable position of being at the top of the stairs with an unwanted intruder on the ground floor. Now I am quite capable of using my carbine, when cool and detached, effectively and accurately. In the situation I am imagining I am anything but.

The implication is I guess "not having to aim was well"??? Which you sort of supported with the term "accuracy forgiveness". Now I could just as easily say that the carbine solution to the "accuracy forgiveness" problem is faster follow-up shots due to reduced recoil which is enabled by an increased magazine capacity.

But then someone will probably come back with the usual "carbines are suitable for the spray and pray crowd".

For instance, that same 6" pattern that allows for "accuracy forgiveness" also creates a precision liability, or do you consider a 6" "grouping" suitable for head shots? I know, I know, in your scenario the requirement for head-shots doesn't exist or is such a remote possibility that it shouldn't be considered.

Just another "what if".

No weapon/tool does everything well, they all have trade-offs.

A better way to do this would be to layout the arguments purely objectively based on evaluation criteria, then weight what you feel is more important.

For this, you might consider the criteria of "accuracy forgiveness" to be higher on the scale, whereas I prefer precision. I want increased range capability, you don't feel it's important or don't envision the need based on your circumstances.

BTW, I didn't rationalize or discount the shotgun, the question was I trying to answer was:

Gentlemen, could we move on to the comparative strengths and weaknesses of the shotgun in the circumstances mentioned please?

If you (meaning anyone) believe the shotgun to be the end all for HD, then use it and "be well". I just laid out some of my reasoning on why I switched.

Chuck
 
Even though I live in a moderate sized metro area now, I lived most of my life rural, so the shotgun will always be my go to. I love the versatility even though I no longer need it so regularly.

Depending on what ammo I run, I can take small game and have something left after to eat, take large game within range limitations, or defend against home invasion.

A carbine isn't as versatile, but some people don't want or need that versatility. In my case, however, a pump action shotgun has been my primary weapon since I was 11, so running one is second nature to me. It makes sense to stick with that. Additionally, here in CA, I'd rather have a reliable pump gun I can top off into a tube mag than an AR I have to basically disassemble to reload (new laws taking effect soon).

At the end of the day, it seems to me that successful home defense is more about getting the drop on your invader than it is about platform. If a bad guy takes a load of buckshot to the chest at 7 yards, dead bad guy. If a bad guy takes a .223 round or two to the chest at 7 yards, dead bad guy. If the you first learn that there's a bad guy in your house when you awaken to find him standing over your bed, your weapon of choice is irrelevant.

I'll never fully understand the inclination of many gun folk (and also musicians, gear heads, film fans, gamers, etc.) to attempt to prove that their personal preference is the be all and end all of whatever.
 
"If the you first learn that there's a bad guy in your house when you awaken to find him standing over your bed, your weapon of choice is irrelevant."

Might be nice to follow the old custom of a pillow sword.
 
Chuck

Thanks for the reply. It really was an honest question with some attempted added humor.


Personally, I feel more comfortable with a rifle carbine than a shot gun for a lot of the reasons you, and others, said.

I may never be as proficient with a shot gun as a rifle just because of huge huge huge disparity of experience I have with them. If I never shot another rifle, I very well may never catch up the experience with a shotgun.

And that stinks for me because, in my situation, trade off for trade off I think a shot gun would be about as equally as good of a choice as a carbine if I was as proficient with it. In my situation, the biggest negative is the lack of precision for a head shot in a scenario of someone taking my wife as hostage before I was able to shoot the sob with anything
 
However #4's are more comfortable to shoot. Many police agencies use #4 instead of 00. Lighter recoil and more shot downrange improves hits probability.

My loading's for HS-6 (00 #4)buck, bird, slug are all within grains of each other.

9 pellet 00 buck is close to 1-1/8oz (depending on the pellet composition), load of 27 pellet #4 buck is about 1-1/4oz. Unless they are under loading #4 buck I'm not sure how a heavier payload can recoil less.
 
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Jumping off balconies and hostage rescue not withstanding, we must grant extra special credence to the carbine, lest we lack the requisite androgynous PC-ness. :scrutiny:
 
Unless I'm facing a dedicated hit squad, the truth is, almost any firearm will be enough for me to successfully defend my home...

This is truth. Man and mindset over equipment any day.
 
The shotgun is a terrific weapon for close-in defense. It's proven itself in a variety of circumstances for a long time, so people know they can trust it. Objections are in the nature of quibbles, generally referencing unlikely scenarios or slight problems. It kicks, it's not good for much range, it's dicey for a hostage rescue shot, potentially dangerous to bystanders, and it's not armor-piercing. Okay, and it works because usually none of those is a factor.

If we are to explain why the shotgun is losing popularity to the modern sporting rifle, we are not on solid ground if we suppose that the shotgun somehow failed to do its job. Mostly, it's worked splendidly and continues to do so. The explanation must lie somewhere else. I am not sure where.
 
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I sold my two AR-15's and replaced them with two Remington 870 Police and a Wingmaster. And no, 9 pellets do not equate to a cap and ball .36 caliber. The 9 00 pellets are moving at 1450 to 1600 ft/sec at the muzzle! A cap and ball revolver (one pellet) is more like 800 fps.

I feel well protected by my 870's and they shoot just fine. At my age, I don't see myself running thru the woods for distance shots.
 
Thanks all. I am reading a book called "U.S. Combat Shotguns" and in it there are several accounts of Navy SEALs and others using shotguns to great effect.

It seems that even then, when there were AKs and M16s and submachine guns just like today, some really thought highly of the shotgun for jungle combat.

Since we don't do any of that anymore, maybe that has something to do with the drop in popularity?
 
If shotguns are better why did police move away from them?

Actually they haven't really. I work for a large metro agency , and every car has a shotgun, and every cadet gets trained on them. Rifles require a 40 hour school, and probably less then half of patrol officers have them (even with personally purchased rifles authorized). I will agree that they aren't pulled on calls as often as rifles, but I think there are a few reasons that have nothing to do with effectiveness. Most police cadets have little practical experience with firearms in general, and little actual knowledge of how far buck can be effective and accurate. We give an extensive lecture and demonstration on shot patterning and ballistic effect, to teach our cadets how well a shotgun can work. Since we started doing that, we've had them pulled out on calls a lot more often, and used on calls a lot more often. I don't think we've had a patrol officer shoot someone with a rifle in at least 2-3 years (we've had a shotgun used at least once a year).

However #4's are more comfortable to shoot. Many police agencies use #4 instead of 00. Lighter recoil and more shot downrange improves hits probability.

I'll certainly not claim to know what all US LE agencies use for loads, but of the agencies I've spoken with (I'm a full time firearms instructor) none use anything smaller then 0 buck. I've personally wanted to do some testing on #1, which will hopefully happen this year. From all the reading and testing I've seen online #4 is very marginal in terms of penetration, which is a key factor to producing effective fight stopping hits. #1 appears to be the smallest size shot that has the requisite mass to ensure adequate penetration. As far as recoil go, proper technique can allow you to shoot slugs or buck just as quickly and easily as #7.5 birdshot.

For home defense lighter recoiling loads such as #6 accomplish the same task as 00. The distances in most homes are close probably not more than 30' (10 yards).

Again my major concern about smaller lighter rounds is the lack weight and momentum leading to low penetration.

As far as shotgun accuracy goes, at conventional HD distances certain loadings can give (and require) just as much precision as a rifle. See: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=768385 for some patterning we did at work. In particular check out the Hornady Reduced Recoil and Federal Tru Flight patterns at 5 yards. 15' is going to be a good sized room in most houses, and it will easily allow you to pick an eye socket to engage into. These two loads can stretch a half head (or less) hostage shot to 10 or even 15 yards depending on how exactly it patterns in your particular barrel. Even the two worst patterning (Remington 9 pellet and S&B 9 pellet) can easily take a half head hostage shot at 5 yards.

The only way to effect a stop is through tissue destruction. An 8 pellet loading of 00 buckshot has a frontal area of approximately .688" inches. Premium defensive rounds for 5.56 platform will usually expand in the area of .5" inches. Fragmentation can dramatically increase that amount, but basically the same way buck works so well. Multiple divergent wound tracks that are more likely to strike something vital. Buckshot has an advantage in depth and width of these tracks, fragmentation gets the advantage in shear number of tracks. Slugs are an entirely different beast, and simply flatten into a 1.5" lead washer that travels about 16" in bare gel. Over penetration concerns for slugs are vastly over stated. As slugs expected have excellent terminal effect in the real world as well. Winchester produces a segmented slug that basically breaks into 3 165 gr projectiles on impact (each projectile is the weight of a .40 S&W slug), and it's moving about about 500 fps faster then a .40 S&W round is at the muzzle. Needless to say it has pretty solid terminal effect as well.

The shotgun looses out to the carbine without question in a few areas: the need for extreme precision, the need for extended engagements if slugs aren't available, the need to engage multiple targets without the opportunity to reload (though the AR realistically has the same problem), and the need to engage through soft body armor. All of these are areas your average HD scenario wont involve, nor will your average police shooting require. Forethought regarding ammunition selection can rectify pretty much everything except magazine capacity (which you can fix if you're willing to deal with the weight penalty), and the need to penetrate soft armor.

I did not grow up shooting at all, and only started shooting shortly before I got into LE. I have FAR more time on the AR platform, and probably an order of magnitude more rounds through one then a shotgun. I don't find bead sights naturally accurate, and hate cross bolt safetys (I wish we used Mossbergs). With all that said, it's not difficult to learn to run a pump shotgun just as effectively as an AR. Either one will work just fine for HD work, if you train and stay proficient.

-Jenrick
 
Jenrick,

Some real world hunting experience will change your opinion about the effectiveness of #4(and maybe #6) high power shells used for big bird hunting. When you see a pheasant explode into a bunch of feathers and the ruined meat on it's backside when hit by #4's you will be very impressed.

#4's are commonly used with the departments in my area.

#4's also do a very good job of blowing out tires and radiators.
 
(Image might not reproduce to the right scale on your computer.)

Just so we're all talking about the same thing:

shot_sizes.jpg

4 Buck is a much different thing than 4 Bird, and their effects are different.

Size four buckshot is bigger and heavier than size four birdshot. So discussions become confusing. Which is under discussion here?

I think we should adopt a different nomenclature so it is always apparent which one someone means--such as using letter codes for buckshot instead of numbers, as the Brits do already.
 
Please provide a citation to support your claims: "A weapon that was so deadly and destructive when deployed in the trenches of WW I that it was banned for use in future wars" and "Yes, the shotgun was banned. One should learn History before commenting on it."

The consistent and on-going use by the U.S. military indicates otherwise. Are you really going to argue that it was legal to shoot POWs in the European Theater with a shotgun but not active combatant soldiers? I can find nothing under the Hague conventions that calls for a banning of shotguns.

Every source I see on the net confirms that "The combat shotgun and its lead-and-antimony buckshot (or shot) ammunition are consistent with the law of war obligations of the United States."
While I don't think the use of shotguns in warfare was ever "banned" I think he is remembering the Germans reaction to the "trench broom" used by the Americans in WWI. In 1918 the German government issued a diplomatic protest, complaining that the Model 97 Trench Gun was illegal because “it is especially forbidden to employ arms, projections, or materials calculated to cause unnecessary suffering” as defined in the 1907 Hague Convention respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land. When the Americans rejected this, the German high command then threatened to execute any soldier caught with a Trench Gun or even just Trench Gun shells. Rather odd that the Germans would have considered a pump shotgun inhumane when they were the first to use poison gas and flamethrowers in combat.
 
Jenrick,

Great info, thanks for taking the time to post. Have you ever compared the Flite Control rounds to the Remington or S&B? I'm curious as to how they'd compare.

I too can attest to the S&B 9-pellet rounds delivering a relatively wide pattern at a surprisingly short distance. Below is a photo of buckshot pattern results with my Auto-5 using a Cylinder bore barrel (I have some photos of testing with Modified and Full screw-in chokes that tighten up the pattern some, but don't have them handy on this computer).

The two patterns on the left side of the gun are #00 S&B buckshot. The tighter pattern was about 4 yards from the muzzle (shooter was standing about 5 yards from the target, hence the muzzle at about 4 yards), and the wider pattern was about 9 yards from the muzzle/10 yards standing position.

The two patterns on the right side are the same distances but with #1 buckshot.

Browning%20A5%2000%20and%2001%20buck%20patterns_zpsow94v4vl.jpg

You can see the #00 buckshot is starting to open up a gap in the middle. Some other testing that I did at slightly longer distances the pattern just kept opening to the point that I knew I wanted some choke. I want a 10 yard target to look about like the 5-yard patterns above. The same gun with screw-in Sporting Clays Full choke provides that type of pattern -- not as tight as the Cylinder bore at half the distance, but some meaningful improvement.

If I were only going to use the gun for HD or very close-range shooting games I'd probably try Flite Control rounds and see if those improved the pattern enough to suit me instead of installing screw-in chokes (I expect they'd probably work based upon the positive reviews I've read of them). But, I like the gun so much that I enjoy shooting targets and hunting with it, and the chokes are definitely needed for some of those activities.

As far as close quarters go, two or three rounds from a gun like this would mess up some vitals and cause extensive leakage.
 
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