Common and less common calibers that no longer have a real reason to exists anymore..

[LoneStarWings]

LMAO

Now you've done it, stirred up the .45 ACP fanbois. Of course they just go to the opposite extreme and call for the baishment of the .40 S&W. I'll keep my 15 round mags, tyvm.

 

[ugaarguy]

Uggh

from that comparison I do nto understand where you get the superior stopping power of the 45....

First, I never said anything about "stopping power", but please define "stopping power" for us since you're so intent on using the term. Second, I never said .45 ACP was superior .40 S&W. I simply posted a link to a credible resource that discredits your baseless assertion that "Momentum alone doesn't mean nothing...big bullets proponents will never ever understand that unfortunately...". In several instances standard Winchester's standard LE loads in .45 ACP beat the .40 S&W in both penetration and expansion. In many instances one caliber beats the the other in penetration or expansion, but not both. In several instances .40 S&W beats .45 ACP in penetration, but not expansion. In all instances the Winchester LE offerings in both calibers meet or exceed FBI minimum requirements for penetration, and all do so with significant expansion. In light of this I think we can all agree that standard Winchester LE loadings in both .45 ACP and .40 S&W are more than adequate for self defence use.

However, that's not the point. You contend that momentum is meaningless. If momentum is meaningless, then how do the .45 ACP loads perform so well at velocities so much lower than the .40 S&W offerings?

We can take this further: Launch the same ballistic comparison tool and compare the 9mm loadings to the .40 S&W loadings. How do those (comparatively) slow, heavy, wide frontal area, .40 S&W loadings meet or beat the lighter, faster, smaller frontal area, 9mm loadings? It wouldn't have anything to do with momentum would it?

If you really think that there are ANY situation where a 40 would not stop an assailant where the 45 would I stop right here and avoid wasting my time...I take few more inches of penetration over 10% of an inch more expansion anytime of the day

Again, you keep bringing up stopping power, and reading things into other folks posts that just aren't there. I never brought up stopping assailants. I simply linked to creditable test results, which use standard ballistic testing procedures and media. Those results show the similarity in performance of premium .40 S&W and .45 ACP defensive loadings. Hence, my comment "Do it with momentum, or do it with velocity. I don't care what works for you. Just don't tell me my choice is meaningless."

The 40 was never designed to push 230 gr. bullet....it does push 200 gr. nicely, basically at the same speed, or just a hair less, of your 45....or you do not believe reloading manuals either???

Finally, WHY THE HECK are you referencing loading manuals in a thread you started about cartridges that should be obsolete? As long as a handloader can get brass and bullets (or a parent case to form from, and a proper bullet mold even) no cartridge is obsolete. That's why I've been referencing commonly available commercial loadings; most of which are offered in similar specs by multiple manufacturers. With 10mm I consider CorBon to be commonly available, because they're available to most dealers through major distributors (not true of DT & BB), and they're one of the few such companies that supports 10mm with multiple loadings.

I'll be waiting on that definition.

 

[ugaarguy]

Now you've done it, stirred up the .45 ACP fanbois. Of course they just go to the opposite extreme and call for the baishment of the .40 S&W. I'll keep my 15 round mags, tyvm.

Who's called for banishment of the .40 S&W? Most folks have simply corrected Saturno's false assertions comparing the two cartridges. There's a difference between attacking something, and correcting false assumptions. I've not done the former, but I have done the latter in this thread.

 

[saturno_v]

Ugaarguy

Momentum has a meaning when we use it in conjunction to SD and comparing the same bullet construction....a 220 gr. 30 cal will oupenetrate a 400 gr. .45 cal bullet striking the target with the same energy assuming the same bullet construction (let's say solid to make things simple)...easy to understand not disputable..period...case closed.

And no, I did not notice in the ballistic tool many instances where the 45 was able to outpenetrate the 40..quite the contrary....the 40 was able to go deeper better than the fortyfive almost always save few exceptions....yes, on average the terminal 45 slug was a 10% wider than the 40....


I mentioned stopping power between quotes because someone mentioned before the supposed superiority of the 45 when it comes to stopping power..I agree with you 100%..we have to define stoppign power first...

My light hearted (that was the intention at the beginning...) was to discuss cartridges that did become "obsolete", in my personal opinion, compared to others that globally do the wor,k in the package intended for them, better overall and easier to find with more loading variety.

If you reload you can make your own .577 Martini-Henry loads I do not really care... I mentioned the reloading manuals only to discuss some numbers that's all

 

[saturno_v]

Most folks have simply corrected Saturno's false assertions comparing the two cartridges

What are my false assertions??

The 40 is on average more powerful than the 45 ACP..not a different power class but still a bit more energy...fact, not disputable....take it the way you want it.

My original stamement in my post:

45 ACP

Reason: the 40 S&W is as powerful and then some in a smaller package and with significantly higher magazine capacity in similarly sized pistols...

Tell me what is false in that statement....

 

[earlthegoat2]

While your analysis at at the very least, entertaining, and at the very most heavily biased towards 357 and 10mm, (and oddly, at least somewhat biased toward the 40, quite unusual I do think, the 10mm can do everything the 40 can and better right) I do think that this is a valid point to be brought up in this day and age.

Any 22 rimfire other than 22 LR

I tend to agree here. Anything that cannot be taken with a 22LR should just be taken with a small centerfire like a 223.

Various 32 Centerfire

Agreed here too. The 327 Federal really doesnt do it for me either.

38 Special

Of couse I have to vehemently disagree as this is a favorite of mine. Though I dont like lightweight revolvers I do like using the cheap 38s in my 357s and ammo cost seems to be a major concern of yours. This one should be thought through a little more by you I think.

41 Magnum

Uh, yeah.

45 LC

I dont use this but with Cowboy Action the way it is I think it must stay. Maybe boot out the 454 Casull or 460 S&W though. One or the other, not both.

25 ACP and 32 ACP

380 Pocket guns have made them obsolete, so agreed.

380 Auto (limited usefulness)

Answer: Useful only if extreme concealability is required (thanks for answering yourself)

357 SIG

Agreed. With the existence of the 40 this is only marginally different IMO. And as you said, just use a 357. Yeah, yeah, blah, blah, you can use it in an auto pistol and get more capacity I have heard it already. Your right, but so am I.

38 Super

Agreed: However the 357 Sig should never be around also because of this round.

45 ACP

Im no 45 fan boy but this has to stay my friend. The existence of this really should have made the the 40, 357 Sig, 10mm, and 45 GAP not exist. Probably a few others too.

45 GAP

I loathe this cartridge.

I know that there are other considerations in play here too. Namely, a particular cartridges overall case length. I know that 45 ACP length cases tend to have larger grip frames and that is a reason the 40 was devised as a service cartridge as opposed to the 10mm and 38 super.

I do also appreciate your liking of the 10mm but this one really should fit on your list as well with all the remarks made about ammo cost and availability. In the same boat as the 10mm I will include the 40 as this cartridge should not exist really either with the 45 having been developed 3/4 of a century before. I understand that these cartridges are different ballistically and all but is there really a need for all of them. The 40 was just a LE/political/compromise cartridge with the 9mm.

As well I understand the inherent ballistic capabilies of the 10mm. It is powerful when loaded hot. Probably too powerful for defense against other humans. Good hunting round though.

Long story short they wouldnt make it if there wasnt a demand for it and there will always be a demand for it unless we play dictator and round up all the guns that are firing those rounds that we have ethnically cleansed from our ammo shelves. Also I blame modern firearm and ammo manufacturers and their incessant need to reinvent the wheel with "new" and "improved" cartridges. Ruger, Marlin, and Hornady are the primary culprits. Undoubtedly their research has done more good than harm though. At the same time though this has to be done to bring about progress in what has become a traditionally stubborn to change industry. There was a big step with the 40 which you already know my thoughts on it but it is a relative newcomer to the industry and it has had sweeping success with LE.

Fun topic to bring up. I like reading about everyones takes on everyone elses opinions.

 

[ugaarguy]

I need get some sleep, but just answer me this: You're hung up on pistol size, pistol capacity, bullet energy, and bullet sectional density. Why aren't you a .357 SIG fan? Afterall, it offers identical size & capacity to .40 S&W pistols, equal energy, and better sectional density. Yes, .357 Magnum does it better, but .357 Mag sacrifices both size & capacity.

Ohh, and you still haven't defined "stopping power".

 

[saturno_v]

Earlthegoat2


Thanks man!! This is exactly the spirit that I intended this thread to have...discussion, agreeing and disagreeing without flaming!!!

Only one observation:

Im no 45 fan boy but this has to stay my friend. The existence of this really should have made the the 40, 357 Sig, and 10mm not exist.

Sorry but the 45 ACP and the 10 mm are not even in the same power class....as I said in another post, it's like comparing a 30-30 to a 30-06 (proportionally)

I would get in bruin territory (if not too large) with the right 10 mm loads....if you do with a 45 ACP (or a 40 for that matter....) you better file off the front sight....

 

[saturno_v]

I need get some sleep, but just answer me this: You're hung up on pistol size, pistol capacity, bullet energy, and bullet sectional density. Why aren't you a .357 SIG fan? Afterall, it offers identical size & capacity to .40 S&W pistols, equal energy, and better sectional density. Yes, .357 Magnum does it better, but .357 Mag sacrifices both size & capacity.

Simple (and in part you answered yourself)

357 SIG Vs. 40 S&W: Identical capacit, poor sectional density (in 125 gr.), necked cartridge (especially for reloaders), less bullet weight range of choice, no energy advantage....why bother??

No clear definitioon for stopping power..I'm not the one that used that term first in this thread...

 

[ir3e971]

Never Mind.

Not taking the bait.

 

[easyg]

Any 22 rimfire other than 22 LR

I agree. Who's still shooting .22 shorts?

Various 32 Centerfire

I agree. Just get a .38 Special and be done with it.

38 Special

The much more powerful and effective 357 Magnum in various loading (from soft to hard) is available in any 38 Special revolver size, included snubnose...why bother??

I disagree.

1) The actual energy delivered from a .357 Magnum, out of a snub-nose, is really not that much more than that of a .38+P out of a snub-nose.
2) The .357 Magnum from a light-weight snub-nose is downright painful and quick accurate follow-up shots suffer.
3) A .38 snub-nose has a shorter cylinder and so the overall dimentions of the gun are smaller....thus more concealable and lighter in weight.

41 Magnum

I agree.

45 LC

I agree.

25 ACP and 32 ACP

I agree.

380 Auto (limited usefulness)

There's still a need for a light-weight tiny pocket-pistol, and in such a gun the 9mm can be a handful for many shooters.

357 SIG

An interesting caliber, but really no better than some of the hot 9mm+P.
And also no better than the .40S&W.

38 Super

I don't think that I've ever actually met anyone who shoots this caliber.

45 ACP

I disagree.
Not everyone is so concerned with high magazine capacity, so in a single stack handgun, you get a rather slim pistol that spits out a bigger and heavier slug than the .40S&W.
And when all other things are equal, a bigger hole in the bad guy is better than a smaller hole.

45 GAP

As much as I like Glocks, this one really is kinda pointless.

 

[Gryffydd]

.so not much difference with different bullet style

Do you really not get it? Powder manufacturers don't put the max the gun can stand across the board for a given bullet weight, they put the max that they feel performs the best with any given bullet style. When you look at a source with plenty of variety, you'll find wildly different top speeds across a single bullet weight in a single cartridge. Obviously somebody like Double Tap can tailor the lead hardness etc. to match a certain velocity and load it up regardless of bullet weight.

he told me to tell you to try to do that with a 45

Uh, OK. I guess I'll just get some of that Double Tap stuff for the .45 instead.
.40 Ballistics : 200gr. @ 1106fps Glock 22 (4.5"bbl)
.45 Ballistics : 200gr. @ 1125fps 5" 1911
At worst that's a tie. So I don't think I would mind trying that in my .45

the vast majority of 40 loads are more powerful than the 45 ACP...there are only few exceptions where some +P loads can equal and maybe, maybe, best the 40 by few ft/lb

Wow...you *really* need to get out more.
The Speer Gold Dot 200gr +p is faster than their .40 180gr load...
Remington loads their 185gr to 1140 in the .45 and 1015 in the .40
Buffalo bore loads their .45 185s to 1150fps, and their .40 S&W 180s to 1111 (5" barrel on both, +P on both).
Federal makes the slowest .45acp 185gr I've ever seen, so there the .40 S&W is faster.
I've already posted that Double Tap quotes higher speeds for the .45 than the .40 in the 180 range (with a .5" difference in barrel length).
Corbon Loads their .45acp 165gr to 1250fps, and their .40 165gr to 1150. You might get 100 fps out of 1" of barrel, and I wouldn't bee too surprised if the .40 could actually push a 165 faster than the .45 because it's really getting to be too light for the .45 to push well.
Hornady loads their .45 200gr load to 100fps faster than their 180gr .40 load... (1" difference in barrel length--but 200vs 180 too)

So yeah, you can find loads out there in the .40 that are faster, but to make a sweeping statement about your average .40 load being faster than your average .45 load is a stretch. At worst they're a tie.

In my comparison between the Hodgdon 155 gr. and 180 gr. for both the 45 ACP and the 40 S&W that is the bullet style available on the site, it's not my fault

Yes, it is your fault for only looking at ONE source (a poor one at that) when you have many available to you and when comparing data that shouldn't be compared.

The 40 is on average more powerful than the 45 ACP..not a different power class but still a bit more energy...fact, not disputable....

I think it's pretty darn disputable... So where's your factual backup? All I've heard so far is "This one guy I know shoots these like this"

 

[Gryffydd]

150 fps, in my book is still a very considerable difference...and we are talking a +P 9 mm and an extremely weak 357 in a non optimal bullet weight (125 gr.) for that cartridge.

...but as I said...compared to the 450fps (or more) difference between handloaded .357 and the 9mm +P, it is a small difference. Yes, that's an extremely weak 357, that was my point. Whether 125 is non optimal is a whole different discussion.

Never Mind.

Not taking the bait.

You're a wise man.

 

[Don357]

"Careful boys, he might be a Liberal!" Even suggesting that certain calibers be discontinued because of their un-usefullness,(not correct English I know), gives the anti-gun crowd more ammo(sic) to use by saying " if they don't want these, they won't miss the other ones either." Considering the fact that ALL of the rounds YOU mentioned are the most popular handgun rounds available, leads me to wonder about your motivation. If we give up a few, they'll take the rest!!

 

[saturno_v]

Gryffydd

Powder manufacturers don't put the max the gun can stand across the board for a given bullet weight, they put the max that they feel performs the best with any given bullet style.

Not really at handgun velocity..I personally fired the same reload recipe with different bullet style (same weight) and the difference was negligible, well within the statistical spread.

If you check Buffalo Bore or Grizzly Cartridges or other manufacturers is the same thing...same weight different bullet style, basically same velocity...and they use standard bullet commercially available.

Rifle velocities are different...we are not talking 30-06 here

And the bearing surfaces difference in handgun style bullets for any given weight is minimal.

The Hodgon technician, when my buddy started to reload told him that you can safely interchange freely bullet style for a given bullet weight reload recipe...that bullet in the load table just happen to be the one they tested.

Wow...you *really* need to get out more.

Ok as I said before in another post I concede that the 2 rounds are equally powerful and equaly effective...yes when you take, for example, 50 commerical loads with the same bullet weight you may find 10 fortyfive loads or so that will slightly get ahead in terms of energy (with still a slight barrel length advantage, let's not forget that...)

However when you take the same bullet weight the 40 has a sizeable SD advantage so assuming the same bullet construction, it will penetrate more as a general rule....

Again at best, like you said, it is a tie....but if you compound the very significant round count advantage I'll personally take a 40 any time of the day...and I do not have problems with the snappier recoil.

By the way Hodgdon is the most extensive reloading resource on line using the powders (Du Point) of one of the largest powder manufacturers in the world, I would not call them limited....

Don357

Your post doesn't even deserve to be commented much less responded...

 

[Gryffydd]

Not really at handgun velocity..I personally fired the same reload recipe with different bullet style (same weight) and the difference was negligible, well within the statistical spread.

Yeah...that's kind of a duh statement. For that matter you can generally push lead faster than you can jacketed due to lubricity, but that's not what I was talking about. What I was talking about was that while a loading manual may list one top velocity for a given bullet weight/style, it might list a drastically different top velocity for another bullet the same weight but of a different type. I'm not talking capabilities of the cartridge I'm talking what the loading manuals choose to print, which can be two very different things.

yes when you take, for example, 50 commerical loads with the same bullet weight you may find 10 fortyfive loads or so that will slightly get ahead in terms of energy

Why don't you go ahead and post those other 40 loads I didn't list then?

(with still a slight barrel length advantage, let's not forget that...)

The .45 and the .40 both gain/lose roughly 50fps on average between 4" and 5". Even if you bump up the .40 barrel length or drop down the .45 barrel length you still end up with a likely advantage to the .45 as most of those loads are 100fps faster or more in the .45.

By the way Hodgdon is the most extensive reloading resource on line using the powders (Du Point) of one of the largest powder manufacturers in the world, I would not call them limited....

I never said they were limited on powders. I said they're limited on bullet styles. They only have 7 for the 45, in only 5 different bullet weights.

I would also be curious why Hodgdon would mix +P load data in with the standard pressure loads with NO indication of what they might be, and no separate page like ALL the other +P cartridges.

 

[Gryffydd]

Oh, and I just got off the phone with Mike at Hodgdon and he said they do not post ANY +P .45 ACP data at all.

 

[saturno_v]

I would also be curious why Hodgdon would mix +P load data in with the standard pressure loads with NO indication of what they might be, and no separate page like ALL the other +P cartridges.

Accordingly with them, the 45 ACP, being a low pressure ammo, any 45 handgun can take a +P spec pressure so they combined the 2.

With the 9 mm is different, some older pistol cannot safely digest +P rounds.

Again, this is what they said at the time

Why don't you go ahead and post those other 40 loads I didn't list then?

I think I did and I listed the reloading numbers that showed an advantage of the 40, except on the 200 gr.

 

[saturno_v]

Oh, and I just got off the phone with Mike at Hodgdon and he said they do not post ANY +P .45 ACP data at all.

They said something different to me and my buddy...go figure

They post any possible cartridge on this planet except for +P 45 ACP??!!!!!

 

[Gryffydd]

They said something different to me and my buddy...go figure

Maybe that was in 1962?

I think I did and I listed the reloading numbers that showed an advantage of the 40, except on the 200 gr

Funny, I can't seem to find that post.

 

[saturno_v]

Gryffydd


I'm really getting tired of this..

Maybe that was in 1962?

No maybe was last year....

Here you go, few examples...

Winchester

Various 185 gr. 45 ACP loads 910 fps

Various 180 gr. 40 Load between 990 and 1010 fps

With Remington the 180 gr. 40 and 185 gr. 45 are within 5 fps from each other except for a Golden Saber 45 load which is faster

Various 185 gr. Federal 45 load get 950 fps while the 180 gr. 40 S&W get 1000, the 165 gr. Hydra Shock 45 ACP is significantly faster than the 40 165 gr. HS

Check for yourself.

All of these are out of a 4" barrel for the 40 and 5" barrel for the 45...call their tech service and ask.


However, finally (I hope) the 40 and 45 do not compete ideally in the same bullet weight (where the 40 has an obvious SD advantage anyway)...the 40, powerwise, shines at 165 gr. or less where it shows the highest energy levels while the 45 get out the most over 180 gr and below 230.


At 180 gr. and over the 40 start to run out of steam as the 45 does at 230.

The two cartridges at their optimum are to be compared in different bullet weights.

I hope we are done with this...the 2 rounds are equal..happy with that??

I still take the 40....13-15 in the magazine rounds beat 7

 

[Dex Sinister]

Injecting a bit of economics (NOT politics) into the discussion...

While it's a lovely and rational discussion, lovely and rational discussions about what "should be" available in the market are for socialists. If "central planning" worked, the world would be a socialist/communist paradise by now. It was a very rational-seeming economic model - it just so happens that chaos theory (capitalism) works better.

Capitalism suggests that millions of individual decision-makers comprise a vastly-larger-and-better-informed knowledge base, which will arrive at a better and more well-informed decisions, even though none of the actual actors possesses as much knowledge as the system as a whole.

What people who argue for more efficiency in place of greater variety always forget, is that this option is always already available to any given producer, especially the most efficient one. However, since there can always be only one "most efficient" producer, it benefits the less efficient producers to stick to fringe markets, where their relative inefficiency is less of a handicap.

Dex

[Sorry - sometimes the "way-too-much-education" part wanders to the surface. Carry on.]

 

[LeverGunJunkie]

As a .45 guy I love to pile on, but it appears there are enough folks here to hold down the fort.

saturno v: I understand you started the thread in the spirit of friendly debate, but c'mon, you had to know a sh%t storm would break out when you advocate the elimination of stalwart calibers/rounds like the 45. Hell, even the smaller (relatively) population of .357 Sig owners (of which I hope to be someday) will defend the name of their favorite like a momma bear defends the cubs. While your intention is good, you stepped in it. With all the ballistics research you've been spouting off, almost seems like you were trollin' for a fight...

 

[Gryffydd]

I still take the 40....15 in the magazine rounds beat 7

7!? I use 8 round mags in my 1911 And who said .45s were limited to 7? I'll take a 13rd XD, thanks. Congratulations on your 2 extra rounds.

I'm really getting tired of this..

I know...going out and getting those cold hard numbers is a real chore.
I already posted the Federal and Remington Numbers above.
Remington's .45 200gr GS is 100fps faster than their 180gr .40. And Federal's 185 gr loads are laughable in .45.
I never got around to Winchester, but that means you now have 2 manufacturers with a faster .40 and I've posted about 8 with a faster .45, and I've already addressed the barrel length thing....but whatever. Oh, and the top loads throughout the Lee manual give a significant advantage to the .45...I'll take a look at my Lyman manual later...Alliant's data gives a clear advantage to the .45., as does the AA manual and the VV manual.

 

[saturno_v]

Dex

Nobody really disputed that some rounds should go out of market for good...obviously was not the point of my post....heck I'm going to buy a 380 pistol myself and a mouse gun in 32 ACP just for fun....

My post was not serious.....never advocated that the 45 or 38 special should be removed from the shelves!!!!


Now, on the serious side.

Mode Econopolitics: ON

Do you ever believed for a minute that we live in a capitalist free market society...do you???

I have great news for you....our economy is as centrally planned as it could be....the mere existence of a central bank that "decide" what is the "right" amount of money to inject in the system and try to pick the "right" interest rate for us mere mortal is the very essence of a centrally planned economy with a veneer of free market for the little people.

This is without even getting into the yada yada about special interests, cronysm and so on...

This country has almost alwyas been free market and capitalist for the common man and socialist for the rich...remember that...


America is as capitalist and free market as China is communist....


Mode Econopolitics: OFF