Competition to Supplement Training

[Craig_AR]

Yesterday I experienced my first low-pressure competition in tactical self defense shooting. What a fun event! OK, I’m already hooked, I can see what tremendous value there is in regular competition to supplement formal training. I plan to continue taking part in such events. Now, more of the story.

Last February, after years of only basic target instruction and range shooting, I took my first concealed carry tactical course. Instructor was Ed Monk, Last Resort Firearms Training here in Arkansas, who had been personally recommended by Gila Hayes at ACLDN. Excellent instructor, super qualified, and I learned a lot I really should have known years ago. At the end of the class, Ed told us that now we had the basics we could come to his monthly 1st Saturday fun competition. Life and COVID intervened but I finally got there.

38 shooters took part, three of us brand new; Ed mentioned this was a smaller crowd than usual. Format was six-stage IDPA-style, using IDPA score sheets, but looser rules enforcement (except, of course for safety) than official IDPA matches. On every stage I got solid advice from the more experienced shooters, and began to see where my attention needed focus. I was Tail End Charlie for the day (low rank, high score), but no worries, I will improve. I met several really nice folks, liked that it was truly a family event, and even learned of a local gun club with range and monthly comps I will be checking out.

Many thanks to Ed, his brother Mike, and the many volunteers who run a high quality, low cost, fun event.

Bottom line: If you have only had basic range training, seek out tactical training, then build your proficiency with fun competition.

 

[GEM]

Great post! Supplementing training with competition is the way to go. One has to remember that competition is not 'training' per se, but a great way to keep up skills and function under some stress.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

I agree.

I would say though that if comps are all that's feasible for someone that its certainly better than square range shooting.

 

[somethingbenign]

I regularly listen to the civilian carry radio podcast where they interview trainers and notable shooters. At the end of every episode they ask a series of questions that are meant to be answered in a few words. One question always asked is "is competition a good agument for formal training?" and so far I remember only one person answering no to that question.

 

[jmorris]

Competition does offer benefits. Pretty early one learns that a gun that runs is a #1 priority after general safe handling. Dexterity, knowledge and proficiency of operation are others.

From a problem solving standpoint it’s much less useful. I have shot many stages where in “real life” the best solution would be to go in the other direction or at the very least hold position and engage targets as they present themselves. That would be a much less fun game though.

 

[Craig_AR]

From a problem solving standpoint it’s much less useful. I have shot many stages where in “real life” the best solution would be to go in the other direction or at the very least hold position and engage targets as they present themselves. That would be a much less fun game though.

I admit extreme ignorance about both IDPA and USPSA, but recalling reading years ago an opinion that while each started off as a way to improve SD skills, but have become fun games to be enjoyed in their own right. The implication was yes, you can improve speed and skills with them, but you need actual tactical training to prepare for real life engagements.

 

[Jeff White]

When you train to compete you have to be careful that you don’t develop habits on the range that you take on the street with you.

If you have 10,000 reps clearing and holstering after a stage in a match there is a good chance you will do the same in a fight. It’s simply the muscle memory you’ve developed.

My friend, the late Pat Rogers told me he drove ROs crazy when he shot in competition because he always replaced his magazine with a fresh one, placed the safety on and holstered at the completion of a stage then he put his mind into admin mode and unloaded and cleared his weapon. He always taught never holster an unloaded weapon.

 

[GEM]

Whether competition will get you KILLED ON DA STREET is a classic Internet argument. It's hard to find a real example of that happening. Most folks who train and compete seem pretty competent in the real world.

Givens, Ayoob, Rehn and a slew of others compete and are highly rated. I've shot with them in some matches. Awesome to watch.

If you shoot competitions as compared to the square range, besides the draw - there is the added benefit of practicing reloads under stress (NO ONE DOES THAT - 5 is enough, blah, blah) and malfunction drills (MY GUN IS 100% RELIABLE) and if you reload seeing if they are good (MY RELOADS NEVER CAUSE JAMS AND NEVER KEYHOLE FROM MY AR OR BLOW UP).

And you can go drink Shiner or Modelo Negra, eat enchiladas, quesidllas, tacos, chile rellenos with a bunch of guys and talk about guns and how to fix the world. We had a great group, old, young, multiethnic, all kinds of law (local, Fed, SWAT), Armed forces, medical, pilots, insurance guys, vets (doggie kind), etc.

 

[jmorris]

I don’t know that I need tactical training to know not to enter a location with so many targets I need three mag changes with zero end goal other than shooting what’s there.

I can’t say that in years of racing cars or driving tractors for that matter, that I have confused them with my daily driver.

Now I will admit to have shot hundreds of thousands more rounds in competition than I have shot in real life defense situations but God forbid I ever do, I am pretty certain I won’t unload and show clear to an RO that’s not there. For the same reason I don’t when I am shooting outside of competitions.

Ayoob, Rehn and a slew of others compete and are highly rated. I've shot with them in some matches. Awesome to watch.

Mass is a really nice guy but he’s no Miculek, only MA class shooter that finishes with the SS’s.

 

[GEM]

It is an old joke that if you are mugged, someone has to yell: BEEP - for you to defend yourself.

 

[Jeff White]

Whether competition will get you KILLED ON DA STREET is a classic Internet argument. It's hard to find a real example of that happening. Most folks who train and compete seem pretty competent in the real world.

Pat gave an example of an NYPD officer who holstered an empty gun after a fight he thought was over...wasn’t over.

I’ve seen enough people, soldiers and cops both do admin range procedures in force on force training to know it’s a concern.

I have personal experience defaulting to previous training to know it’s real.

Years ago in Louis Awerbuck’s Shotgun class we ran a FoF exercise with airsoft guns. The scenario was that you were entering a structure to find your missing daughter. When you found her, she was being held by an armed bad actor. The mission was to secure her release.

When it became my turn to run the scenario I defaulted to my LE training and tried to take the armed bad actor into custody after I had secured the girls release and I ended up shooting the role player. The correct solution to the problem was to secure the release of the “hostage” and back out of there. But there I was standing behind a door jamb holding an airsoft shotgun on the role player trying to get him to put his weapon down so I could “arrest” him.

You will default to your training and experience.

 

[jmorris]

It is an old joke that if you are mugged, someone has to yell: BEEP - for you to defend yourself.

Funny story, after a match a bunch of us went out to eat, a number of Grandmaster and master shooters as well as other more “tactical” folks. One of the GM shooters happened to be seated with his back to the door, when one of the guys positioned so he could see everyone that entered, asked him what he would do if someone came in and yelled “everybody get down!”. Without missing a beat, he stuck his fingers in both ears and put his head down on the table.

 

[jmorris]

Sometimes a little muscle memory wouldn’t be a bad thing.

 

[FL-NC]

Competition is an excellent form of training, but remember that most types of competition are a "game". Shooting challenging courses someone else set up under pressure is never a bad thing.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

Upon thinking about it more I'm wondering how much is actually different from what folks refer to as "training" versus competition.

I'd love to do a Gunsight course but unless I hit the lottery it ain't going to happen.

That being said I've watched a bunch of GS videos online and it seems no different than comp. You're told what to do and how many rounds to fire and wait for the go.

I realize there are more "tactical" oriented courses that are out there but I wonder how relevant they really are to civilian situations.

I shoot 5 IDPA matches a month along with live fire practice for those matches every weekend. Not to mention the 2-3 sessions of dry fire I do each week.

I'm not an expert by any means but I'm putting the work in. I realize its "just a game" but I feel theres a lot there that's extremely beneficial in "training".

I do what I do because its convenient for me and I believe it to be much more than the average CCW puts in.

Really all of it is a "game" no two ways about it. Sims are probably the closest to the real thing you can get and I'd love to do some of that if the opportunity ever presented itself.

 

[Kleanbore]

Upon thinsking about it more I'm wondering how much is actually different from what folks refer to as "training" versus competition.

Hint: Competition involves going after targets.

Self defense does not.

 

[Zerodefect]

Every time a fool says that competition has no bearing on real world skills, you can pretty much put them on ignore permanently.

It's the best weapon manipulation training out there. Sure, it's not tactics. But a tactics class doesn't have jack squat for weapons manipulation either. I don't know anyone who didn't become a completely better shooter, from competition.

Not to mention, that it's nearly impossible to train monthly if you don't have your own range. Can't draw, run, or do Spetsnaz backflips on your average pay range. But you can at your monthly USPSA shoot.

 

[Jeff White]

But a tactics class doesn't have jack squat for weapons manipulation either.

Never been in a tactics class have you?

There is no one activity that will give you everything you need to prepare for an armed encounter. You must start in the classroom with training on the legal use of deadly force.

Then you go to the square range and learn the basics of marksmanship and weapons manipulation.

Then you move to tactics and more advanced shooting skills.

Then you go to force on force training.

Then, you start the process over again.

Competition is a great way to hone some skills but it’s not learning to fight. If you know what you can gain from competition and what you can’t it’s great.

I haven’t done a lot of competition shooting but I’ve spent my entire adult life training to fight and training others to fight. The training process must be progressive and continuous and since all of the skills are perishable you have to periodically go back to the basics.

And one of the hardest things is being honest with yourself and training on your weaknesses instead of things you do well.

 

[Zerodefect]

Actually, I have.

 

[mcb]

I have taken a few classes for self defense and a few for competition. I have to say that competition both the classes and more importantly all the matches and practice session you shoot teaches you weapon manipulation far better than what I have gotten in self defense classes. I have had to shoot, reload and clear malfunctions in far more difficult awkward and usually ways in competition far more often than anything a self defense class has asked me to do. That said that seems to be were the real world applicability of competition shooting ends. There is so much more to self defense than weapon manipulation and in the overwhelming number of real world cases those other aspect are far more important since they usually involve skills to recognize and avoid the situation in the first place or to get out of a situation without resorting to lethal force.

 

[Craig_AR]

I just found that John Correia had an ASP Extra video two years ago on the very topic of competition versus real life.
Check out the YouTube
“Competition Will Get You Killed on the Streets” (Dumb Gun Sayings)
HIs position: "a gunfight IS a competition."

 

[GEM]

In some competitions, we've put a dummy round in the shooter's magazine at an unknown position. These are club matches and it is challenging for some.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I'm wondering how much is actually different from what folks refer to as "training" versus competition.

The difference is that in competition The goal is the finish the fastest with the best hits. You're not worried about taking "hits" as long as you're abiding by that game's rules. In defensive training the goal is to survive without taking any hits and there is no time limit to consider how you reach your goal.

I've also taken a lot of classes and both choices start with the same weapon manipulation goal; placing hits on target rapidly...those are the fundamental skills you need to move on. Folks who don't have a fairly high weapon manipulation skill are really doing themselves a disservice when attending more advanced courses...because they spend more time thinking about shooting fundamentals than learning the skill being taught

 

[Old Dog]

Sometimes a little muscle memory wouldn’t be a bad thing.

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Whoa -- serious chicken wing in effect there.

Every time a fool says that competition has no bearing on real world skills, you can pretty much put them on ignore permanently.

Eh, I knew plenty of guys in the military, and more'n a few in law enforcement, that never competed in any gun games, but were fairly successful in real life lethal force encounters.

But all you USPSA and IDPA guys go on convincing yourselves that you know what it's gonna be like to when you get in your first gunfight.

On topic, I've enjoyed watching some gun game guys the first time they've ever engaged in force on force training with Simunitions. Timers and opponents are great for getting the adrenaline flowing and learning a bit about placing hits with some pressure on, but it's a little different when you're worried about a two-way affair.

 

[jmorris]

Whoa -- serious chicken wing in effect there.

Thats not it, the magazine is inserted backwards into the rifle. In other words, it is completely useless except for making the officer a primary target with zero means to provide a defense, much less an offense.

I’ve never done that in a match...that said, if I were an LEO that did nothing except qualify when I had to, I wouldn’t expect to be knowledgeable much less be proficient around firearms, either.