Confused

[tws3b2]

New to reloading. My only goal is to reload some 38spl and 9mm. Mild loads. Not interested in +P, magnum or hot rounds. Or, any other calibers. Just to have something to mess with during wet/cold/rainy winter days, to have a backup during ammo shortages and portable.
I have reloaded some 38spl, 158gr, Hornady XTP using w231 powder. I have 38 and 9mm Lee Precision loading kits. I want to keep it easily portable so I need nothing else. I'm going to stick with w231 or hp38 powder for both calibers.
At the lgs I picked up a box/500 round 38spl, 158gr .358, swc bullets made by Alpha Bravo mfg llc in Pa. I looked up the company to see if they provided any loading data. Apparently they are no longer in business. No website and their email does not work. Seems they were in business for 13 years, but no longer. Unlucky 13 I guess.
I use 38spl and 9mm loading manuals + Hodgdon for data. I like using Hodgdon, simple, fast and no clutter. Just works for what I want for me. Just put in caliber, bullet, powder and there you go. Simple.
Now where I get confused.
I compared Hornady, Speer and Hodgdon 38spl, 158gr, .358, SWC, w231 powder data.
Hornady minimum 3.2 gr - max 4.4 gr powder - SWC bullet.
Speer min. 3.8 - max 4.3 - Lswc bullet.
Hodgdon min.3.1 - max 3.7 - Lswc bullet.
Where I'm confused. Minimum 3.1 - 3.8. Max 3.7 - 4.4. ?
Swc - Lswc. In know the L = lead. Is there a difference?
Why the wide range in powder weight? All for 38spl, 158gr, .358 bullet. What makes the difference?
Which load would I use?

 

[243winxb]

I would load 3 rounds at 3.5. Grs of W231 powder, in 38 spec brass, with 158 gr cast bullets. Just for hand guns. A long barrel rifle may need more powder? Go from there.

Check the weight of the bullets, case can be heavier the what mold is listed at.

Generic Reloading Data listed at W-231 From 3.0 grains to 4.9 grains, for 158 gr.

I have no experence with 231.

Wait for more replies.

 

[tws3b2]

I would load 3 rounds at 3.5. Grs of W231 powder, in 38 spec brass, with 158 gr cast bullets. Just for hand guns. A long barrel rifle may need more powder? Go from there.

Check the weight of the bullets, case can be heavier the what mold is listed at.

Generic Reloading Data listed at W-231 From 3.0 grains to 4.9 grains, for 158 gr.

I have no experence with 231.

Wait for more replies.

Thanks. I was thinking the same 3.4 - 3.5.

 

[CQB45ACP]

I would load 3 rounds at 3.5. Grs of W231 powder, in 38 spec brass, with 158 gr cast bullets. Just for hand guns. A long barrel rifle may need more powder? Go from there.

Check the weight of the bullets, case can be heavier the what mold is listed at.

Generic Reloading Data listed at W-231 From 3.0 grains to 4.9 grains, for 158 gr.

I have no experence with 231.

Wait for more replies.

Me too—double check the bullet weight first.

Then to manage the process—use Hogdons data first from light to heavy to find what you like.

Move to others’ data after that as necessary, if necessary.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

This actually gets asked a lot - at least once a month in some form since I started lurking here about ten years ago - and the explanation is almost always at least as confusing as the original question. Bare bones, what it comes down to is testing methods and goals. Is the lab just testing for minimum load to assure a consistent bullet exit from the tightest possible barrel - are their test barrels tend to be made to minimum SAMMI specs or average? - and the maximum pressure safe for most modern firearms? Or, is the lab testing for accuracy at some range determined by common usage in off-the-shelf firearms? Hornady tests their bullets only - and their 158gr LSWC is swaged antimonial lead, not cast - so if you are not using a Hornady bullet their loading tables are still valuable but of limited utility. Lyman’s tests lead bullets made using their molds and a very specific alloy. Again, useful but of limited utility.

The powder manufacturer doesn’t publish loading instructions, the distributors and primary contractors do: Hodgdon doesn’t make powder - not a single grain - they contract with the manufacturer and have specifications that must be met. Similarly, Alliant, Western, Accurate and just about every other powder company buys powder made to their specifications and labels it accordingly. As you can imagine this means there’s a good bit of lot-to-lot variation and that also shows up in the testing results.

The difference between your bullet and what was tested - seating depth, alloy, heel/base profile, lubricant, weight, and whether or not it’s jacketed in some way - all must be measured and accounted for.

Or, just start with the lowest published load and work up in 1/2gr increments until you find a load your guns like best.

Start low and work up. Never exceed the maximum for your bullet or one just like it.

I’m sorry if this all sounds like a lot of work but I’m trying to help you not blow up a gun or stick a bullet in the barrel.

 

[Bazoo]

What you need to do is compare that bullet weight and used case volume (crimp to base measurement) to that of a very similar bullet which has known data.

It appears to be a magma mould, here's the reference, https://www.magmaengineering.com/PDF/BBOct132008b.pdf


Just like this one from RimRock https://rimrockbullets.com/xcart/-38-357-swc-158-gr-per-600.html

That bullet is .370 from top of the crimp groove to the base, but you'll likely seat it lower on the crimp groove so the inside of the case mouth (when crimped) touches the bevel portion of the crimp groove (top of second driving band).

A Lyman 358477 is .360 from base to top of crimp groove, and has data available. I'd use Lyman 358477 data for my bullets and feel confident my ammo was very close to Lymans pressure and velocity.

I suggest getting a loadbooks USA manual for each of your calibers, it’s an invaluable resource, though not all these measurements are in it, it has data for many bullets to help with load development.

I have samples of both the RimRock bullet mentioned and the Lyman 358477 to enter into my website, so I measured them for you.

 

[tws3b2]

Me too—double check the bullet weight first.

Then to manage the process—use Hogdons data first from light to heavy to find what you like.

Move to others’ data after that as necessary, if necessary.

I did check the weight. Most all over 159. Some 159.7 and at least one of what I checked 160.

 

[Bazoo]

Some of the variables that affect pressure include:
dimension of the chamber
thickness of the brass
alloy used
lube used
amount of crimp
powder lot-to-lot variation
rifling twist rate of the barrel, with faster twist normally giving higher pressure
ambient temperature
primer used

But the info you listed doesn't include pressure, only what is suggested as max, and pressure is only 1 thing that can cause a testing facility to suggest a max load. Ballistic inconsistency is the main one. Suppose you have a load string that starts to become erratic as the powder volume is increased, or no additional velocity is gained with an additional increase in the powder. In that case, they will likely consider that the max charge even if it's under the max saami pressure for the cartridge.

Another thing that could be a limiting factor is the appearance of leading with the specific bullet and alloy that was tested.

 

[Anchorite]

Every gun is an enigma unto itself.

Some good ideas have been put out there. I prefer to use the powder manufacturer data first, then cross reference.

A lot of variables in cast, such as alloy and size. Generally cast bullets shot are at are lower pressure than jacketed, so that’s one reason for discrepancies in data, but then again, most data is from shots in test barrels of unknown or long length.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

What you need to do is compare that bullet weight and used case volume (crimp to base measurement) to that of a very similar bullet which has known data.

It appears to be a magma mould, here's the reference, https://www.magmaengineering.com/PDF/BBOct132008b.pdf


Just like this one from RimRock https://rimrockbullets.com/xcart/-38-357-swc-158-gr-per-600.html

That bullet is .370 from top of the crimp groove to the base, but you'll likely seat it lower on the crimp groove so the inside of the case mouth (when crimped) touches the bevel portion of the crimp groove (top of second driving band).

A Lyman 358477 is .360 from base to top of crimp groove, and has data available. I'd use Lyman 358477 data for my bullets and feel confident my ammo was very close to Lymans pressure and velocity.

I suggest getting a loadbooks USA manual for each of your calibers, it’s an invaluable resource, though not all these measurements are in it, it has data for many bullets to help with load development.

I have samples of both the RimRock bullet mentioned and the Lyman 358477 to enter into my website, so I measured them for you.

Great info!

 

[LiveLife]

Why the wide range in powder weight? All for 38spl, 158gr, .358 bullet. What makes the difference?

Difference is pressure testing variables.

Pressure testing done to develop published load data simply measure chamber pressure using various/different barrels with groove-to-groove diameter, twist rate and length (Usually single shot fixture that accommodates different caliber barrels), different bullet diameter, bullets at different seating depth/COL/OAL due to different leade length/crimp groove location, different headstamp brass and primers.

Depending on these variables, powder charge required to reach SAAMI max average pressures can vary. For many years I wondered why Lyman #49 load data for 40S&W was so much higher then I noticed test barrel diameter was larger (.401" compared to more typical .400") - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...lead-bullet-data-needed.874760/#post-11635963

So you have load data from powder manufacturer with same start/max charges for both W231 and HP-38 (BTW, they are same exact powder now) that used 7.7" length barrel (Clicking on "Print Data" shows more details) - https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center

• .38 Special 158 gr Lead SWC W231/HP-38 COL 1.475" Start 3.1 gr (782 fps) - Max 3.7 gr (834 fps)

And here's Speer load data from bullet manufacturer showing different start/max charges for W231 and HP-38 (No barrel length indicated) - https://reloadingdata.speer.com/downloads/speer/reloading-pdfs/handgun/38_Special_158_L.pdf

• .38 Special 158 gr Lead SWC W231 COL 1.440" Start 3.8 gr (783 fps) - Max 4.3 gr (863 fps)
• .38 Special 158 gr Lead SWC HP-38 COL 1.440" Start 3.6 gr (756 fps) - Max 4.1 gr (855 fps)

So when I am conducting "initial" powder work up for a new bullet/powder, I tend to reference more conservative load data for my "initial" powder work up as you can always go higher.

But as other members posted based on their experience, suggested 3.4 gr charge may produce high enough pressures to start accuracy trends.

Likewise, for 9mm and 115 gr FMJ/RN using W231/HP-38, Hodgdon published start/max charges for 115 gr Lead RN is 4.3/4.8 gr loaded to 1.100" COL but when using FMJ/plated RN bullet loaded to more typical 1.130"-1.135" in most pistols, 4.5 gr will start to reliably cycle the slide and 4.6 gr will start to produce accuracy trends with 4.7/4.8 gr producing smaller groups.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

You have been given some very good information here. One thing that has not been mentioned though is barrel length. You have the same powder used with three arguably similar bullets that yield similar velocity with different ranges of powder. The Hornady book lists a 4” test barrel while Speer lists 6” and Hodgdon lists a 7.7” barrel. It takes more powder to achieve approximately 850 fps with a 4” barrel than it does with a nearly 8” barrel. Going with that logic, it makes sense that Hornady would give the highest max charge with Hodgdon the lowest and Speer in between. All of this load data is likely safe pressure-wise, but Hodgdon has been using that data for a long time, and when it was first tested most people were probably loading for longer barrel revolvers. Nowadays, lots of people are loading for shorter barrels, so you’re likely to see higher load values in other publications as they get updated.

 

[tws3b2]

You have been given some very good information here. One thing that has not been mentioned though is barrel length. You have the same powder used with three arguably similar bullets that yield similar velocity with different ranges of powder. The Hornady book lists a 4” test barrel while Speer lists 6” and Hodgdon lists a 7.7” barrel. It takes more powder to achieve approximately 850 fps with a 4” barrel than it does with a nearly 8” barrel. Going with that logic, it makes sense that Hornady would give the highest max charge with Hodgdon the lowest and Speer in between. All of this load data is likely safe pressure-wise, but Hodgdon has been using that data for a long time, and when it was first tested most people were probably loading for longer barrel revolvers. Nowadays, lots of people are loading for shorter barrels, so you’re likely to see higher load values in other publications as they get updated.

That makes sense. I'm using a 1.8" barrel.

 

[reddog81]

FWIW the Hodgdon load at 3.7 grains does list a pressure of 14,600 CUP. Regular .38 Special maxes out at 17,000 CUP. For whatever reason they stopped 15% below 17,000.

 

[mdi]

IIRC; Hodgdon published data for a lead 158 SWC is for their swaged lead bullet. I would not use that data, but get data for a 158 gr cast SWC. Not a catastrophic problem, but swaged data for a cast bullet is not optimal (nuttin' will blow up but correct data will provide better accuracy and cleaner shooting)...

I'd suggest getting a Lyman Reloading Handbook, 51st Edition. If that isn't in your budget check your local library...

 

[Charlie98]

It takes more powder to achieve approximately 850 fps with a 4” barrel than it does with a nearly 8” barrel.

With loading data, the devil is always in the details... that's why it can be tricky to compare the 'same' data between 2 or more different sources.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

FWIW the Hodgdon load at 3.7 grains does list a pressure of 14,600 CUP. Regular .38 Special maxes out at 17,000 CUP. For whatever reason they stopped 15% below 17,000.

Are you sure it’s max pressure is 17kCUP or is it 17kPSI?

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

Are you sure it’s max pressure is 17kCUP or is it 17kPSI?

According to SAAMI, both are 17,000 for standard 38 Special.

https://saami.org/wp-content/upload...rfire-Pistol-Revolver-Approved-12-13-2022.pdf

Page 14.

 

[Bazoo]

You cannot rely 100% on barrel length when figuring expected velocity. There are instances when individual barrels will offer significantly higher or lower velocity than expected.

In a revolver, the barrel cylinder gap is responsible for a loss of velocity, the larger the gap, the greater the loss. If the barrel cylinder gap is different than the vent in the pressure barrel, it will affect the expected velocity.

 

[tws3b2]

To ask another silly question.
To what point should I seat this bullet? To the ring? above it?

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

To ask another silly question.
To what point should I seat this bullet? To the ring? above it? View attachment 1179615

Seat the bullet and crimp in the groove. That’s the way these bullets are designed to work. There may be minor differences in the seating depth between this particular bullet and the ones published in the manuals, but unlike 9mm, the 38 Special is a particularly forgiving round to load with respect to minor differences in seating depth. That said, start on the lower half of the load data and work upward and you should be good.

 

[PapaG]

I have gotten to the stage that I avoid bevel base bullets. The have given me more problems with accuracy and leading than any flat based bullet. I don't load many bullets that I don't cast but sometimes I don't have time to cast my own.
Flat base or gas check for me. I also am leery of powder coated bullets. Yeah, I'm an old f@rt.

 

[N555]

Hot 38spl+p is where its at if you have 357mag guns.
I would load some up at 3.8, 4, 4.2 and 4.4gr and see what shoots the best.
My old speer manual shows 4.3gr as the top std 38spl load and 4.7gr as the top 158gr lead +p load with hp38/231.
For 38spl for a 357mag I would do at least 5gr.

 

[GooseGestapo]

Let me make it simple.
.38spl. 158gr +/- SWC. 3.6gr of Win231. seat to cannelure. Light crimp

9mm. 115gr. 1.10-1.125” OAL. 4.9gr Win231. Light crimp


I’ve shot/tied National records with these loads. They’re very forgiving.
They Work!
A large, well known bullet manufacturer in the past used these loads in their factory loaded MATCH ammunition and developed a reputation for match winning ammunition. (Hint, Precision Delta Ammunition).

 

[Bazoo]

You seat in the groove (crimp groove). With a wide groove like that you'll likely want to seat the bullet on the lower side of the groove, so there is a thumbnails thickness between the case mouth and the front driving band. Crimp should be .008-.010 smaller than the case after the bullet is seated, when measured at the smallest part. You can crimp lighter, but a healthy crimp will keep the bullets from moving better.

If you crimp too much, you will bulge the case just below the mouth. Just back off the crimp a little bit if that happens and it's good to go. If you bulge some, as long as they will chamber (even if you have to push them in with effort) they are safe to fire.