Contemplating a rifle comparison.... Input desired!

[Poper]

I've been contemplating a rifle comparison of a group of sporting rifles for fit, function and accuracy and I am wondering if there is any interest on THR for such an amateur effort.
That group would be five "entry level" rifles that would be compared to three different more "advanced level" rifles.

First the definitions:
1) Entry level rifle: A sporting rifle designed, constructed and marketed to the first time rifle owner/hunter at an entry level price point,

2) Advanced Level rifle: A sporting rifle designed, constructed and marketed to a more experienced and more discriminating buyer than the entry level hunter/shooter/sportsman.

The entry level rifles in mind are:
1) Ruger American
2) Savage Axis
3) Remington 783
4) Marlin XL7
5) Mossberg XTR
The reason for these rifles selected is because of sheer curiosity and they also interest me.

The Advanced Level rifles would be:
1) Weatherby Vanguard
2) Tikka T3 Hunter
3) Browning 1885
Why these are selected is because I currently own them.

Now for a brief explanation about my thoughts and why this is interesting to me in particular.
Several weeks ago I was working up a 150 grain load for my 30-06 Weatherby Vanguard I had put in a Boyd's walnut Prairie Hunter stock. I chose an "extremely accurate" load from Ken Waters' "Pet Loads" and started with a 1 grain less powder charge and in .5 grain increments worked up to one grain heavier than Ken's load. Bingo! Ken's load was indeed very accurate and more accurate than any of the ladder loads. Cool.
Then I did the same thing with my Tikka T3 Hunter. Surprise! Same results only just a smidgen tighter.
Then I worked up a load, again using Ken Water's "Pet Loads" data as before, for a 165 grain load. Dang! Almost identical results! Now my curiosity was thoroughly aroused!

In a casual conversation with the "Sunday Usual Bunch" at the range it came out that several of the guys had experienced similar results and a couple of them swore by their Ruger Americans and Savage Axis rifles. Note that these guys are experienced shooters and hand loaders and were expressing their surprise at just how well these entry level rifles could shoot. One fellow commented on the groups that were printed by my Tikka and I showed him the targets from the week before shot by the Vanguard. They were so similar it was scary.

I recently bought a Remington 783 in 30-06 for a measly sum just because I thought it was too cheap. (Just what I needed: Another 30-06!) Now I'm thinking of an extended test of the rifles noted above of the proven loads in my Vanguard and Tikka plus a wrinkle: Add a commercial loading as a "control" load.
Proposed evaluation factors:
1) Price - I'll buy 'em as ridiculously cheap as possible.
2) Accuracy.
3) Fit and finnish.
4) Trigger
5) Ease with which the barrel comes clean.

Proposed methodology:
All of the commercial cartridges will be of the same loading (example: Remington 150 grain Core-Lokt) and same lot number. All handloads will be of the same recipe - I.E. brass, primer, powder, bullet - and components will all be of the same lot number.
Commercial rounds will be fired in 5 consecutive 3-round groups at 100 yards after scope zero. Handloads will also be fired in 5 consecutive 3-round groups at 100 yards after scope zero. All rifles will use the same scope. (It will be transferred from rifle to rifle for the test.) The test firing will take at least eight weeks as I have to work and can only shoot one day per week - weather, work and spouse permitting, of course. Also, I do not currently have the funds set asside to acquire all of the guns simultaneously.

At the conclusion of the test - if I actually do it - I will have to liquidate at least five of the rifles and maybe more to try to recoup some of the cost. At the minimum I would expect to have invested $1200 in guns I don't/won't need, another $300 - $400 in bases and rings plus another $200 (min.) for factory ammo and maybe another $100 or so for reloading components. I'm guessing the final number for this project will be somewhere in the $2500 range if I actually go through with it.

Anyway, anybody interested? Comments? Critique? Suggestions?


Poper

 

[P.B.Walsh]

Honestly? I think your throwing away your money on average to sub-par rifles. It would be interesting to note, but only if at least the rifles were free. That $2500 you spend will be forever lost on lower quality rifles that you can never resale at the same price point.

Cool idea, but an individual waste of money in my humbele opinion.

 

[OldBrownDog]

Honestly? I think your throwing away your money on average to sub-par rifles. It would be interesting to note, but only if at least the rifles were free. That $2500 you spend will be forever lost on lower quality rifles that you can never resale at the same price point.

Cool idea, but an individual waste of money in my humbele opinion.

+1. It's a great idea. But go buy yourself something really nice for $2500, then tell me how that shoots. You'll be better off with it, and I'll get to read about something I'll probably never shoot.

 

[jmr40]

All of the budget rifles you are considering are what I refer to as "disposable" rifles. As a rule they shoot very well. No need to buy all of them and conduct experiments. That has already been done and numerous write-ups have been posted online and published in various hunting and shooting magazines.

I have no issues with hunter on a tight budget buying any of these rifles as long as they understand what they are buying. For the guy who is not a serious shooting enthusiasts they will probably last a lifetime of hunting and provide accuracy and reliability that is darn close to, maybe better than some higher end rifles.

But it is long term performance and value that suffer. Most of them sell for a fraction of their initial cost on he used market and many are extremely hard to sell at any price. Serious shooters shoot enough to wear out parts on any gun. These guns are not worth the effort to repair when parts break or wear out. It is easier and cheaper to just buy another. It is often possible to buy a higher end gun used for about the same price and have a much better long term investment.

That said, I'm seriously considering one of the Ruger's in 223. For me it wouldn't be a high use rifle nor one that would get used in serious situations where it would be a major disappointment if it were to fail.

 

[CarJunkieLS1]

OP this seems like a great idea and I for one would be very interested in it. My suggestion is to try band borrow the rifles from local people. Then run your test and return the rifle. That way the expense won't be so big.

 

[Poper]

It's a great idea. But go buy yourself something really nice for $2500, then tell me how that shoots.

Hmmmm... Sort of like buying a Colt Python instead of a Taurus Tracker?

I don't have any $2500 rifles, but I do have a couple of custom rifles in wildcat calibers that are in the $1800 to $2000 range. They don't do anything an off-the-rack rifle will do much less expensively.

All of the budget rifles you are considering are what I refer to as "disposable" rifles. As a rule they shoot very well.

Interesting.
The Remington 788 was also a "budget rifle that shoots very well" and today they are often desired for the action as a platform on which to build a competition rifle because the proven inherent accuracy in the action due to stiffness of the action and the extremely fast lock time. Is it possible history could repeat itself? Just curious....

Thanks for the input, guys.
I will give the idea considerable thought before I jump in with both feet.

Poper

 

[greyling22]

I like the idea a lot, my only concern would be the cost involved for you. I would be almost as interested in your (or anybody's) opinion on the fit and finish of those 5 rifles side by side at a small gunshop that would let you really look them over and take photos.

As far as accuracy goes they are probably all going to do more or less the same and that aspect has been written and published all over the place, and as far as dependability, well it's a bolt action rifle.

 

[Vol46]

It sound like what you really need are some front end commitments from folks at THR or some of your shooting/hunting buds to purchase some of these rifles & bases for about what you have in them, after your test is over. They would be getting a proven gun with bases installed & a load or two that works ( assuming they don't all shoot 4" "patterns") & you would be reasonably sure you won't have to sink your shooting budget for the next year or two into the project.
I am not looking for a budget 30-06 at this time, but I am sure there are folks who are.

 

[Poper]

Vol46,

My thought upon completion of the comparison test would be to place the test rifles on Gunbroker with a starting bid of $1 and sell them for whatever someone was willing to pay for them. I'd get some of my investment back, anyway. I hadn't thought of offering them to THR members first, though. That may be a way a beginner could afford a very slightly used gun or someone could buy their kid his/her first hunting rifle, too.
Thank you for the ideas!

Poper

 

[d2wing]

I think it is a great idea. I am very interested in a comparison of those rifles head to head.
Knowledge is priceless.

 

[peacebutready]

THR over commercial mags and sites

No need to buy all of them and conduct experiments. That has already been done and numerous write-ups have been posted online and published in various hunting and shooting magazines.

But it is long term performance and value that suffer. Most of them sell for a fraction of their initial cost on he used market and many are extremely hard to sell at any price. Serious shooters shoot enough to wear out parts on any gun. These guns are not worth the effort to repair when parts break or wear out.

An experiment by a THR member would be more trustworthy than a magazine or a commercial website. I've seen some junk get good reviews.

 

[sappyg]

Sounds like a fun project but, keep in mind most here already have a good understanding of fit, finish and accuracy these budget rifles are capable of.

I like most all of the budget rifles available. However, I doubt a head to head comparison between them would change my indidual opinion about specific models tested. Plus, you're only testing a sample of one each. This reduces any comparison down to the most general terms largely based on subjective preference to a large degree.

 

[peacebutready]

mistake

 

[Mike1234567]

My Axis is disposable junk?

 

[NWcityguy2]

It's an interesting idea but I wouldn't spend my money on it. I honestly think you'll discover what is already known, that most companies produce good bolt actions with a few exceptional ones and a few bad ones in the mix.

 

[pippin53]

Sounds nice. But can I make a suggestion? A lot of "entry level" hunting rifles are usually old sporters found at pawnshops, or handed down in the family.

Example 1917 Enfield Sporter, 30-06, good condition(light bore frosting), $300(http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_info.php?products_id=29393)

Example Remington 740 Woodsmaster, $275(http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_info.php?products_id=30727)

Example Mauser 96 Sporter, 30-06(http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_info.php?products_id=10894), $295.

Example Husqvarna 1640, 30-06, excellent condition, $295(http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_info.php?products_id=30362) <--My pick as the gem.

Really, I bet the Husqvarna would outperform most of of those entry level rifles. I'd love to see a head to head of a Savage Axis or Remington 770/783 versus a good old rifle like a Husqvarna 1640, Parker-Hale, Interarms X, etc.

 

[peacebutready]

I'd love to see a head to head of a Savage Axis or Remington 770/783 versus a good old rifle like a Husqvarna 1640, Parker-Hale, Interarms X, etc.

Gun Tests magazine did just this last month comparing a Ruger American to a used Weatherby Vanguard. The Vanguard won.

 

[Poper]

Gun Tests magazine did just this last month comparing a Ruger American to a used Weatherby Vanguard. The Vanguard won.

Very interesting. My Vanguard came in a plastic stock and shot very well in it. I paid right at $400 for it new and later put it in a Boyd's Prairie Hunter walnut stock - a surprisingly nice piece of wood.

Last week I lucked into a Remington 783 in .30-06 (new) for $225, so the first leg of the "entry level" rifles to be acquired has materialized. It comes with a scope mounted so I have saved the money that would have been spent for bases, too.

If somebody has hard, objective points of evaluation, in addition to on-target accuracy measurements and measured trigger pull, I would be interested in hearing them.

I realize Chuck Hawks and others have written about most, if not all, of these rifles, but I am not sure there have been side-by-side , step-by-step, photo-by-photo comparisons. I guess I am more curious that anything to see them for myself. I have been hunting and shooting for going on 50 years and I can't recall any other time so many different new rifles aimed at the beginning shooter/hunter came on the market at nearly the same time. Seems like this could be a fun learning experience....
Maybe?

Poper

 

[Uncle Mike]

I've been contemplating a rifle comparison of a group of sporting rifles for fit, function and accuracy

We have been doing this for years at the shop, setting up 'package' deals for customers which generally includes mounting optics and shooting-in the firearm for the customer.

Short answer... Most lesser or inexpensive units will preform as well or, in most cases better than the majority of the more expensive (production) rifles will.This, I have experienced first hand, time and time again.

 

[peacebutready]

Last week I lucked into a Remington 783 in .30-06 (new) for $225, so the first leg of the "entry level" rifles to be acquired has materialized. It comes with a scope mounted so I have saved the money that would have been spent for bases, too.

Where can I snag a 783 for $225, even if without a scope?

 

[peacebutready]

But it is long term performance and value that suffer. Most of them sell for a fraction of their initial cost on he used market and many are extremely hard to sell at any price. Serious shooters shoot enough to wear out parts on any gun. These guns are not worth the effort to repair when parts break or wear out. It is easier and cheaper to just buy another. It is often possible to buy a higher end gun used for about the same price and have a much better long term investment.

I read about one fellow's Savage Axis that fired 17,000 rounds and is still going. I don't know if ever had to repair anything, though.

I just looked on Gunbroker at used Axis'. It seems like they're holding their value OK.

Which parts tend to break/wear out on these kinds of models? Can a regular person replace these parts? At what point does this typically happen to folks target shooting a good amount?

 

[Inebriated]

I have no issues with hunter on a tight budget buying any of these rifles as long as they understand what they are buying. For the guy who is not a serious shooting enthusiasts they will probably last a lifetime of hunting and provide accuracy and reliability that is darn close to, maybe better than some higher end rifles.

But it is long term performance and value that suffer. Most of them sell for a fraction of their initial cost on he used market and many are extremely hard to sell at any price. Serious shooters shoot enough to wear out parts on any gun. These guns are not worth the effort to repair when parts break or wear out. It is easier and cheaper to just buy another. It is often possible to buy a higher end gun used for about the same price and have a much better long term investment.

I agree with you about all the rifles, but one... The Axis is hardly disposable. It's a sub-MOA rifle that uses Savage standard barrels, barrel nuts, bases, magazines, and triggers. Stocks are now coming to market, as well. The rifles definitely have good longevity potential.

 

[peacebutready]

I agree with you about all the rifles, but one... The Axis is hardly disposable. It's a sub-MOA rifle that uses Savage standard barrels, barrel nuts, bases, magazines, and triggers. Stocks are now coming to market, as well. The rifles definitely have good longevity potential.

I didn't know it used Savage standard barrel nuts and magazines. Savage rifles beyond the lower priced ones use the accutrigger. I don't think the Axis does. I read the Axis trigger isn't pleasant, though that's changeable if you want to spend the money.

 

[Inebriated]

I didn't know it used Savage standard barrel nuts and magazines. Savage rifles beyond the lower priced ones use the accutrigger. I don't think the Axis does. I read the Axis trigger isn't pleasant, though that's changeable if you want to spend the money.

The Axis trigger is plenty serviceable. It's heavy, and a bit creepy, but it is fine for hunting, and can still be used to make accurate shots on the range. You can use Rifle Basix and Timney Axis triggers, but also standard Savage triggers, oem or otherwise. I changed my AccuTrigger into my Axis for a while, and I had to use a pen spring, as the spring on the AccuTrigger was too long, and I didn't want to cut it. But even if I left it as it was, it worked fine. It was just heavier than I wanted. Other than that, it just dropped in.

 

[Poper]

Where can I snag a 783 for $225, even if without a scope?

Found this one on Gunbroker. Cost $45 shipping and a $25 transfer but still ended up less than $300 when all done.

Poper