Conversion Cylinder Legalistics
- Thread starter rmfnla
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Ratdog68
Member
No... you're not... be happy.
What you're missing is the fact that anyone can legally MANUFACTURE a gun for their own use (they cannot sell, rent or give away the completed gun) without the knowledge or consent of the Federal government in any way. When you install a conversion cylinder in a percussion revolver you are in effect manufacturing that gun. You may not then sell, rent or give away the gun in that configuration. You may, however, sell, rent or give away that same gun with a percussion cylinder, or no cylinder, installed, and then sell, rent or give away the cartridge cylinder separately.
it's legal.
it's legal.
Ratdog68
Member
If you live in WA State... buy "out of state" from a seller who does NOT have a brick/mortar store within WA State's border lines. For example... IF I purchase a BP gun from Cabela's, I MUST deal with an FFL (Cabela's has a store in WA State). IF I buy from Sportsman's Guide... they UPS directly to my door with nothing more than the CC transaction. WA State is cutting their own throat for business owners' own good (but, what's new?).
Kruzr
Member
Just keep in mind those cartridges aren't modern cartridges with smokeless gunpowder. They are "cowboy action" cartridges or loaded with black powder or BP substitute.
madcratebuilder
Member
Not entirely correct their mykeal. With out a proper FFL you can not manufacture a gun with the intent to sell, but you can make a gun and you can later sell said gun with out restriction. This is a gray area as batf&e doesn't give you any time limitations on holding said gun, how many you can do in a life time, etc.
JNewell
Member
Just about every major manufacturer makes "cowboy action"-level loads. Even here in MA, which is not exactly a hotbed of CAS sports, that's often all you can find on a dealer's shelves in .45LC.
DammitBoy
Member
Isn't it safe to shoot non-cowboy loads in the Ruger Old Army?
zimmerstutzen
Member
the law does vary greatly from one state to another.
For instance, in PA, certain laws apply to guns in different ways. If the pistol is an antique meaning wheel lock, flint lock or percussion, or not using fixed ammo available in the normal stream of commerce, one set of rules apply. If the gun uses cartridges available in the normal stream of commerce then other rules apply. For instance restrictions on transporting it. Under our law, no pistol or handgun, whether modern or antique, may be carried concealed without a specified permit. No person who has ever been involuntarily committed or who has been convicted of certain crimes may have ANY firearm, antique or modern, regardless of what federal law may say.
To transport a cartridge pistol in an auto or truck requires a special permit, or some very technical exceptions. However, there are no restrictions on transporting un unloaded antique firearm in a auto. Under the state game law, no person may transport a loaded pistol anywhere in an auto, unless they have a permit to carry.
So, to traport a pistol with a conversion cylinder in PA would require that a person comply with either an exception to the law or the permit requirement. But as a straight cap and ball revolver, the same gun is ok to transport, just not to carry concealed.
To make things even worse there are two different types of permits to carry. One covers only going to, from or while hunting and or fishing, and the other permit applies to any transportation or carrying whether concealed or not.
I understand that places like Jersey and Cal are far worse with the restrictions.
For instance, in PA, certain laws apply to guns in different ways. If the pistol is an antique meaning wheel lock, flint lock or percussion, or not using fixed ammo available in the normal stream of commerce, one set of rules apply. If the gun uses cartridges available in the normal stream of commerce then other rules apply. For instance restrictions on transporting it. Under our law, no pistol or handgun, whether modern or antique, may be carried concealed without a specified permit. No person who has ever been involuntarily committed or who has been convicted of certain crimes may have ANY firearm, antique or modern, regardless of what federal law may say.
To transport a cartridge pistol in an auto or truck requires a special permit, or some very technical exceptions. However, there are no restrictions on transporting un unloaded antique firearm in a auto. Under the state game law, no person may transport a loaded pistol anywhere in an auto, unless they have a permit to carry.
So, to traport a pistol with a conversion cylinder in PA would require that a person comply with either an exception to the law or the permit requirement. But as a straight cap and ball revolver, the same gun is ok to transport, just not to carry concealed.
To make things even worse there are two different types of permits to carry. One covers only going to, from or while hunting and or fishing, and the other permit applies to any transportation or carrying whether concealed or not.
I understand that places like Jersey and Cal are far worse with the restrictions.
rcflint
Member
conversion
The part containing the pressure is the cylinder... Both Kirst and R&D cylinders are made of 4140 and 4150 steel. They are rated for smokeless "Cowboy" loads, which means, NO +P. No "Ruger Only" handloads, true of even a Colt SAA, or Italian clone.
Factory smokeless 45 Colt loads are safe in a conversion as long as they are not Plus P. But lead bullets are required for SASS, and I wouldn't run jacketed bullets through a Cap & ball bore, except in the ROA.
The Kirst or R&D cylinder for a Ruger Old Army is the same steel as the other conversion cylinders they make, and rated for the same "Cowboy" loads.
A Ruger NM Blackhawk or Vaquero cylinder is rated for heavier loads than Cowboy 45 Colt, and can be loaded about equivalent to the SBH 44 Mag. But a ROA conversion cylinder is NOT so rated by Kirst or R&D as far as I know.
The part containing the pressure is the cylinder... Both Kirst and R&D cylinders are made of 4140 and 4150 steel. They are rated for smokeless "Cowboy" loads, which means, NO +P. No "Ruger Only" handloads, true of even a Colt SAA, or Italian clone.
Factory smokeless 45 Colt loads are safe in a conversion as long as they are not Plus P. But lead bullets are required for SASS, and I wouldn't run jacketed bullets through a Cap & ball bore, except in the ROA.
The Kirst or R&D cylinder for a Ruger Old Army is the same steel as the other conversion cylinders they make, and rated for the same "Cowboy" loads.
A Ruger NM Blackhawk or Vaquero cylinder is rated for heavier loads than Cowboy 45 Colt, and can be loaded about equivalent to the SBH 44 Mag. But a ROA conversion cylinder is NOT so rated by Kirst or R&D as far as I know.
DammitBoy
Member
Thanks flint!
robhof
Member
On the ROA, it's tough, but it's not designed to handle hot 45 rounds. I stick to the cowboy loads, they're strong enough to take a deer at 40yds as I've tested. I've loaded it with 40 gr of 3f 777, which is pretty hot, but not in league with my Blackhawk Ruger only loads.
Hoof Hearted
Member
I would like to ad to Madcratebuilders statement and make you aware that "manufacturing" and "Federal Excise tax" come into play here and upon the 50th build tax is required (as well as reporting) of this firearm and the previous 49.
If (and it's doubtful this would happen) there was reason to believe that you were in the manufacturing business they have a case if they can prove you built that many.
These rules and regs are part of the "07" FFL manufacturing license process and there is a once a year tax stamp ($500) for manufacturing other firearms, SBS, AOW, SBR, Silencers, etc.
TheBigAR2003
Member
So what your saying is
I can buy a bp pistol and have it shipped to my house (given).
But i can also in the same transaction online buy a conversion cylinder and have it shipped to my house and never call my FFL buddy?
I can buy a bp pistol and have it shipped to my house (given).
But i can also in the same transaction online buy a conversion cylinder and have it shipped to my house and never call my FFL buddy?
Hoof Hearted
Member
YES
TheBigAR2003
Member
sweet
Hoof Hearted
Member
I can even sell ya one............
Shoot me a PM
Shoot me a PM
Berkley
Member
Legalistics
One point that I haven't seen mentioned yet is the last sentence in this quote from the instructions that come with the Kirst converter:
One point that I haven't seen mentioned yet is the last sentence in this quote from the instructions that come with the Kirst converter:
junkman_01
member
You haven't seen it mentioned because I believe it isn't true.
Hoof Hearted
Member
This bolded sentence is the current interpretation by the BATFE but is often missinterpreted by firearms enthusiasts as meaning that a port cut in the recoil shield constitutes a firearm. You have to have a conversion cylinder also. The port could be there for any number of reasons. Think of it like BATFE's definition of "Constructive Posession" (having a short barrel for a carbine that will easily or readily install in said carbine or a stock that will install on a pistol).
Just remember that it is legal for you to build a firearm (by installing conversion cylinder or converting a non firearm). A BP pistol is FEDERALLY considered a "non firearm", your state may not agree, as long as you do so without the intent of selling it.
Berkley
Member
I can cut the recoil shield, and install a conversion cylinder, and still sell the resulting firearm face-to-face to a 21-year-old Texas resident who is not a drug addict or incompetent.
Can I list the cut-frame revolver on THR's For Sale board, and legally send it, with no cylinder installed, via UPS directly to an otherwise lawful purchaser who does not have a FFL in another state?
Can I list the cut-frame revolver on THR's For Sale board, and legally send it, with no cylinder installed, via UPS directly to an otherwise lawful purchaser who does not have a FFL in another state?
Hoof Hearted
Member
OK, now you are asking me to stick my neck out.
Let me answer you by saying this:
I would do this but will not tell you what to do as "intent" comes into play here.
Also. be aware of the state definition of a firearm. Some states classify BP revolvers as firearms.
Let me answer you by saying this:
I would do this but will not tell you what to do as "intent" comes into play here.
Also. be aware of the state definition of a firearm. Some states classify BP revolvers as firearms.
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