junkman_01
member
I would say YES you can ship the frame. You can even re-install the percussion cylinder and ship the whole thing. Imagine that! 
Conversion Cylinder Legalistics
- Thread starter rmfnla
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jtscuba02
Member
Kirst's Catridge Konverter is not a firearm according to provisions of 18 United States Code Chapter 44, Title 27, Code of Federal Regulations, Part 178. Installing a Kirst Cartridge Konverter into a percussion revolver creates a firearm subject to those provisions, however under Federal law; an individual who is not prohibited from possessing a firearm can lawfully install the Cartridge Konverter in a percussion revolver for the personal use of that individual.... Permanent alteration to the frame of a percussion revolver, to accommodate cartridge use, will re-classify that revolver to a firearm and as such must be transacted as a firearm thereafter.
So according to this, the percussion revolver is not considered a firearm? Let's forget about the conversion for a minute. When does the percussion revolver become a firearm? Is it when you load it?
So according to this, the percussion revolver is not considered a firearm? Let's forget about the conversion for a minute. When does the percussion revolver become a firearm? Is it when you load it?
Joe Demko
Member
Are you talking about for commerce purposes or for criminal law?
jtscuba02
Member
Joe, I'm talking about for criminal law. I think I have a good grip on the commerce part.
Hoof Hearted
Member
I have bolded the portion of your post that applies....my interpretation is that it is a firearm with the conversion in place and not a firearm when the conversion is out of the "non firearm" revolver. The act of "porting" the recoil shield in and of itself is not a "Permanent alteration to the frame of a percussion revolver, to accommodate cartridge use". This type of alteration would be attaching a "ring" to the revolver that would preclude the use of the percussion cylinder. Or some other way of modifying it for cartridge use. IMO the port by itself does not "accomodate cartridge use".
Joe Demko
Member
I can't speak for the law of any other state, but PA law doesn't differentiate between a cartridge revolver and a cap n' ball revolver for criminal purposes.
Hoof Hearted
Member
Criminal puposes.......do you mean in the case of using a firearm to commit a crime?
I don't think it would make one iota in any state!
But firearms regulations on the Federal level define the difference between a "firearm" and a "non-firearm" and a Cap and Ball pistol is a "non-firearm".
Some states classify, on the state level, a Cap and Ball pistol as a "Firearm". Some differ greatly from the federal definition. This is why you can ship a BP pistol across state lines in the mail (federal law) but not a pistol defined as a firearm, as long as the state allows it.
I am pretty sure if you go to Cabela's website they have disclaimers saying which state allows what.
I was simply telling the gent that inquired to be careful of the state laws. In his imaginary situation he was within Federal law.
just a little bit of trivia i learned the other day when looking at a Ruger 58
side by side with an uberti 58 at a california gun store.
I could walk out the door with the uberti right then but the ruger i was told
had a 10 day wait because it varied from the original designe even though it
was still cap and ball.
side by side with an uberti 58 at a california gun store.
I could walk out the door with the uberti right then but the ruger i was told
had a 10 day wait because it varied from the original designe even though it
was still cap and ball.
junkman_01
member
This is just wrong on all counts.
A Ruger Old Army is not a '58 anything. It is a modern C&B revolver.
The ignition system dictates what is an antique in this case, not when, where or who made the gun. If the LGS told you that, they don't know what they are talking about. Tell them to READ the law book that the BATFE supplies to them with their FFL!
A Ruger Old Army is not a '58 anything. It is a modern C&B revolver.
The ignition system dictates what is an antique in this case, not when, where or who made the gun. If the LGS told you that, they don't know what they are talking about. Tell them to READ the law book that the BATFE supplies to them with their FFL!
Hoof Hearted
Member
I think you might be too quick here........
The California DOJ defines a firearm as:
The term firearm includes rifles, shotguns, revolvers, pistols, or any other device
designed to be used as a weapon from which a projectile is expelled by the force of any
explosion or other form of combustion. The term firearm includes the frame or receiver
of any such weapon. (Penal Code § 12001.)
With the exceptions being:
The term firearm does not apply to a federally defined “antique” firearm for the purpose
of dealer licensing requirements, sales or loans between private parties, or requirements
to obtain a Handgun Safety Certificate pursuant to Penal Code sections 12070, 12071,
subdivisions (b) (c) or (d) of 12072, or 12073. The term firearm does not apply to
federally defined “curio” or “relic” long guns over 50 years old for the purpose of
transfers between private parties. (Penal Code §§ 12001(e), 12078(t)(2).)
Therefore, they could argue that a copy of a Remington Cap and Ball pistol is an "antique" by Federal law whereas the Ruger OLd Army is not a copy of any Antique, so it is a firearm subjecting it to their background check and 10 day waiting period.
A REALLY GOOD REASON TO MOVE
well forgive me i guess i miss spoke but it is styled on the remington 58
designe even by there own admision i guess thats why i always thought of it as a rugar remake of a remington.
either way he was not going to let me walk out with one without a 10 day
waiting period and probably a pass of a safety and familurlarity test like any other revolver you would buy but he did not mention that part.
oh and i am moving lol
designe even by there own admision i guess thats why i always thought of it as a rugar remake of a remington.
either way he was not going to let me walk out with one without a 10 day
waiting period and probably a pass of a safety and familurlarity test like any other revolver you would buy but he did not mention that part.
oh and i am moving lol
junkman_01
member
Hoof Hearted
As you quoted in the first sentence of the exception: a federally defined antique.
Well here is the Federal definition (from GCA'68) of an antique firearm:
(16) The term "antique firearm"
means—
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion
cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica—
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term "antique firearm" shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.
As you quoted in the first sentence of the exception: a federally defined antique.
Well here is the Federal definition (from GCA'68) of an antique firearm:
(16) The term "antique firearm"
means—
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion
cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica—
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term "antique firearm" shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.
Hoof Hearted
Member
I'm truly sorry if I ruffled anyone's feathers here and the GCA of '68 does indeed set the federal definition of a firearm.
It's just that California has their own more encompassing laws that preclude the Federal laws in their state.
I used to be a "subject" of that state and this is the reason why I no longer live there.
It's just that California has their own more encompassing laws that preclude the Federal laws in their state.
I used to be a "subject" of that state and this is the reason why I no longer live there.
BHP FAN
Member
I still live here, and you can buy a Ruger Old Army with no paperwork, and Cabela's will ship a Remington cap n ball revolver right to your door.
andrewstorm
member
backwoods lawyers
BILL RUGER said he based his old army on the Remington new army 1858 ,no revolver on the market is an exact replica.for instance they are all marked for black powder only! also the dimensions on original revolvers varied from revolver to revolver,they would never use the type Steele originally used,or the techniques,even on itialian clones ,the bores are different style rifling,hammer forged ,not cut,they didn't have cnc computers,most were hand made and fitted,if you konvert a 1858 pietta to say 44 rim fire or some other obscure black powder cartridge no longer made in the us and not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade it is still a antique under federal law,although it can still be considered a firearm in many jurisdictions for criminal prosecution purposes,THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO KEEP And BEAR ARMS SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.void where prohibited ,I guess not everyone qualifies as people,also has anyone noticed that all these laws haven't stopped or even reduced crime,only concealed pistols in the pockets and the hands of law abiding Americans,created a downturn in the crime rate,making criminals think twice about who to victimize,god bless america the only free country on planet earth.also i had a pietta 99.00 cabelas piece of junk that was broken in the first 2 months,the originals were much more reliable ,i custom made a new hammer spring that lasted for years,does that make it a modern design?no! you dont know what the man (bill ruger)was thinking,by the way bill didnt like junk!
BILL RUGER said he based his old army on the Remington new army 1858 ,no revolver on the market is an exact replica.for instance they are all marked for black powder only! also the dimensions on original revolvers varied from revolver to revolver,they would never use the type Steele originally used,or the techniques,even on itialian clones ,the bores are different style rifling,hammer forged ,not cut,they didn't have cnc computers,most were hand made and fitted,if you konvert a 1858 pietta to say 44 rim fire or some other obscure black powder cartridge no longer made in the us and not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade it is still a antique under federal law,although it can still be considered a firearm in many jurisdictions for criminal prosecution purposes,THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO KEEP And BEAR ARMS SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.void where prohibited ,I guess not everyone qualifies as people,also has anyone noticed that all these laws haven't stopped or even reduced crime,only concealed pistols in the pockets and the hands of law abiding Americans,created a downturn in the crime rate,making criminals think twice about who to victimize,god bless america the only free country on planet earth.also i had a pietta 99.00 cabelas piece of junk that was broken in the first 2 months,the originals were much more reliable ,i custom made a new hammer spring that lasted for years,does that make it a modern design?no! you dont know what the man (bill ruger)was thinking,by the way bill didnt like junk!
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junkman_01
member
Bill Ruger may have based his ROA on the '58 Remington, but he did not copy it. Most firearms are based on previous designs. As such, the ROA is not a copy of anything, but a modern C&B revolver made between 1972 and 2008. It's ignition system makes it an antique firearm under federal law and it seems so does California DOJ.
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