Could someone explain "galling" as pertaining to weapons? What are the signs?

[inSight-NEO]

Yes...I did a search, but found nothing definitive as relating to handguns (particularly semi-autos). I have heard this term thrown around numerous times when speaking of certain handguns, one of which happens to be one I own (a Sig). In addition, burrs and other such "high points" were mentioned. Of course, these seemed more specific to all stainless weapons or stainless/aluminum variants. Im not sure if such an issue is even that prevalent with polymer weapons.

I have noticed that the frame rails on my P230 are "scarred" lengthwise to the point that the aluminum is showing through. Ditto on the stainless slide rails. Is this galling, to a degree? Or is this simply normal wear and tear? Im leaning towards the later as, the way I understand it, galling takes place on a somewhat more microscopic level.

Im sure these questions are indicative of noobdom, but Im still in the learning phase. Ive come a decent way, but have only recently been exposed to terms such as "galling". So....

 

[highorder]

The Wiki is pretty good.

Galling usually happens with stainless steels sliding against each other; the problem has mostly been eliminated with modern stainless alloys.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galling

Think of galling like metal "smearing."

 

[inSight-NEO]

Galling usually happens with stainless steels sliding against each other; the problem has mostly been eliminated with modern stainless alloys.

So, Im guessing that the "scarring" along the frame/slide rails (after roughly 300 rounds) of my P239 are merely the consequence of either tight tolerances or at least, normal use?

Also, if galling takes place at a more micropcopic level, as referenced in the wiki article, then how are some of these gun owners even able to tell that such a thing is occuring on their weapons?

 

[highorder]

In the case of the 239, you're probably seeing anodizing rubbing of the frame.

Not suggesting negligence, but what do you lube your rails with?

 

[inSight-NEO]

Not suggesting negligence, but what do you lube your rails with?

I use Weapon Shield exclusively. I use this on all of my weapons, including the likes of P220, XD45, and various shotguns. Have never experienced this "rubbing" outside of the P239. In addition, I make sure to never fire any weapon "dry" and if over 100 rounds are fired, I re-apply oil to all contact points.

Ive considered grease, but I dont like the stuff. Too messy and Ive actually had weapons jam on the stuff.

I must say, however, that this P239 is very accurate and has yet to experience a failure of any type...for what thats worth. In addition, I have noticed that the P239 is noticeably "tighter" than my other handguns. Im wondering if this may not have something to do with it.

In the case of the 239, you're probably seeing anodizing rubbing of the frame.

Is this considered a defect and more importantly, could this pose any issues down the road? Im personally thinking that any rubbing that has occurred up to this point is probably as bad as its going to get. Dont know though as its the first time Ive seen it.

I guess this is yet one more reason why Im beginning to prefer weapons with polymer frames.

 

[highorder]

Can we see some pics of your issue? I'd hate to speculate.

 

[navyretired 1]

Highorder said it right " think of it like metal smearing", when looked at under magnification you can see the metal has actually smeared instead of scratches cased by dirt. As someone already said we used to have a lot of problems with stainless but not so much now. If a slide is set up too tight it is possible to get galling. A good quality anti-seize grease can help wear tight slide in without galling, but you must keep cleaning sand and dust out of grease or you have lapping compound.

 

[usp9]

Galling, as a term used to describe one metal leaving a residue on another during some forceful or abrasive action, can be seen in pistol chambers when soft metals are used for ammo cases. Some soft aluminum cases can gall in a chamber, building up aluminum deposts to the point of shrinking the chamber enough to cause malfunctions.

 

[inSight-NEO]

Can we see some pics of your issue? I'd hate to speculate.

Here are some pics. Sorry about the cellular quality (or lack thereof). Oh, and the blemishes on the second pic are not nearly as "deep" as they appear in the photo.

 

[highorder]

hmm.

I see nothing in the first photo, and the second photo looks like mechanical damage.

Can you further explain the problem?

 

[inSight-NEO]

hmm.

I see nothing in the first photo, and the second photo looks like mechanical damage.

Can you further explain the problem?

No real problem, functionally speaking. I just saw these markings on the slide and the term "galling" came to mind. However, based on the responses and further research, this is more than likely not the case here. But, again, functionally the gun is just fine (300+ rounds out of the box without a snag) and still seems tight as it has always been. Its just these weird marks....

 

[JohnKSa]

Galling essentially means that two metal surfaces in sliding contact are sticking together in spots and rubbing off on each other. Stainless is prone to doing this.

It is not the same thing as metal fouling in the bore or a situation where metal residue rubs off and builds up on a surface. That's just metal rubbing off on another metal. Galling means that tiny spots of the metal on each surface are actually cold-welding to the other surface and then ripping off their surface or ripping pieces off the other surface. Once it starts it tends to progress and as it progresses the surfaces get more and more rough.

Wikipedia has a decent writeup on galling.

It's not common in quality firearms since it's a known problem with known solutions.

 

[mete]

Galling is , by definition , cold welding !! Metal from one piece is cold welded to the second piece and torn away by the moving parts. The stainless steel gun problem has been taken care of by better choice of alloys. There are lubes specifically designed for this and other high pressure applications.One was RIG +P+ [ no longer made] , there are others.
If you have a problem post a good quality photo so we can better analyse it.

 

[Bovice]

I agree with one of the previous posts. The marking on your slide looks like mechanical damage unrelated to using the gun. The frame looks fine, however. The finish on the rails of the frame will not stay forever. You can slow it down by making sure to lube it properly... other than that, wear is the name of the game. Nothing wrong with that, it shows good honest use. Another thing common to Sig Sauer pistols is the notorious "sig smiley" on top of the barrel, near the muzzle. You'll get that to appear with use as well.

Look at it this way-If all of your guns have absolutely no wear on them, then you're clearly not using it and therefore aren't proficient in it's use. That's what we call "safe queens".

 

[inSight-NEO]

I appreciate all of the responses and the "food for thought". I now have a much better understanding of galling.

In terms of the Sig, I guess Ill keep a closer eye on things and just be sure to keep it well oiled both prior to and during extensive firing sessions. But, for now, the Sig seems functionally adequate so Ill try not to lose too much sleep over it.

Thanks again.

 

[Clark]

I bought my son a Cricket 22 rimfire rifle.
My father, the gun design chief engineer, pointed out that the firing pin was galling in the bolt.
My wife took the rifle back to the store.

 

[Confederate]

Great answers! Galling, as it was experienced by early stainless auto users, also affected friction, causing malfunctions. It often required heavy lubes to keep the guns working. Modern steel alloys have virtually eliminated these problems.

As a matter of fact, I haven't found any miracle lubricants on the market. Back in the 80s, BreakFree was the hot lube to use, and things haven't really improved much since then. BreakFree did a decent job but, like most lubes, attracts dust and gunk. Militec-1 is a good "dry" lubricant and is great for hot, dry climates like Iran, but it would have been inadequate for wet climates like Vietnam.

Malfunctions were common in Vietnam with nearly every firearm except shotguns and, of course, revolvers. I understand that the dust and grit in Iran are causing soldiers to spend a lot of time cleaning their weapons.

 

[9mmepiphany]

the wear on your rails are a product of lack of lube, sig like to run with grease to protect their rails if you're going to do any "heavy shooting" (100 rounds of more)

some wear is normal, parts just wearing in, and will stop at some point and not get worst. if you don't protect your rails with a grease, you'll wear through to the bare aluminum and your frame will be toast.

the marks on your slide look like "dings" in the picture...but you say they that "bad", are they indentions or are they above the surface...they don't look like they have anything to do with the wear on your frame. it looks like something i might send back and have them smooth ot at the factory

 

[BCRider]

A good example to identify motion induced galling is the score mark and end "bead" you get on twist drill shanks where the bit slipped in the chuck. I'm sure any of us that has used hand drills or drill presses has seen examples of this. Granted this is an exteme example but the same pattern of damage occurs at various size points depending on the metals, pressures and circumstances.

It's also the reason why when press fitting metal items together, such as pushing in replacement ball bearings or a tight press fit pin, why it's essential to lubricate the sliding surfaces. In the case of bearings the locking compound may be the lubricant but either way such things should never be pressed together dry.

 

[Bovice]

the wear on your rails are a product of lack of lube, sig like to run with grease to protect their rails if you're going to do any "heavy shooting" (100 rounds of more)

some wear is normal, parts just wearing in, and will stop at some point and not get worst. if you don't protect your rails with a grease, you'll wear through to the bare aluminum and your frame will be toast.

FWIW, the video tutorial on the Sig Sauer website uses oil. I also have used oil on both my SIGs and have put 200 rounds at a time through them on several occasions, sometimes more. When it was all over, there was some oil that had run out (as can be expected... its oil!), but there was still plenty on the rails and outer barrel surfaces.
No rail damage or anything out of the ordinary.

Oil is also much easier to clean off. A little solvent and a quick wipe takes it off.

 

[9mmepiphany]

you can lube your gun however you like

i'm just passing on information to prolong the function of Sigs, under hard use, from the country's foremost Sig pistolsmith.

he sees hundreds of Sigs pass through their shop each year and simply makes the information available as his sense of duty to his fellow man