Couples tactics for older folk

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Librarian

Librarian

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Please take this in the spirit of 'we have to work with what we have'; the old joke is 'If I had known I was going to live this long, I would have taken better care of myself!'

My wife and I are both 62. Neither of us has ever been an athlete; we're computer and math nerds. We wear glasses, we're starting to get joint pains, we take a fair amount pf prescribed medications. In short, we're getting old and we don't have a lot of material to work with.

(An aside: yes, we both have had martial arts training; for a very brief span, either of us might be a nasty surprise to an attacker, but youth and conditioning are powerful advantages in hand-to-hand.)

But we would like to get older. And we don't choose to be hermits.

We also have a significant drawback - we live in California, in a county that essentially does not issue CCW. That may change in a year or two; I'm part of the Calguns Foundation project that is working toward that goal. But for a year or more, legally carrying a firearm for self-defense, the part of the solution that tends to even out old and young(er) people, is out of our reach.

We do own suitable CCW guns, we do practice, we have already the proper mindset - we're just unable to use the tools legally due to the issuing policy in our county (and all the nearby counties are just as bad or worse).

No, we cannot move, for personal, job and family reasons, and because I want to stay here and get the verdammt laws changed.

So, if we intend to go places together, our overall strategy has to be something other than engaging, other than combat.

"Don't go to bad places" is obviously the first thing; that one we have under control, though there are some 'choke points'.

For example, we go to Giants games, day and night, in San Francisco. With around 40,000 people coming in and going out, and lots of police presence, right around the park is fairly safe.

The vulnerable spot is probably BART, our commuter train/subway system; while it's moving, there is simply no exit, except to another car on the train. Other than staying alert to see things coming, I don't see a lot we can do there - but perhaps you do.

Similarly, sometimes we go to a symphony concert or a play in the city; in those cases there is a several-block walk between BART and the event. How can we walk safely, observe carefully and anticipate problems so we can avoid them?

I'm already a big fan of Marc MacYoung's No Nonsense Self Defense; my major concern is robbery, and the possible complications of robbery. (I used to lament the lack of professionalism among modern robbers: sheep are for shearing, so they can be released to be sheared again.)

What else should we know? What should we practice?

ETA: How can we reinforce and complement each other in awareness and defensive/evasive movement?
 
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If you're studying MacYoung, you already have a pretty good handle on some important things. I'd suggest looking at Rory Miller's stuff too, his blog at http://chirontraining.blogspot.com/ and his books, especially Facing Violence (http://www.amazon.com/Facing-Violence-Unexpected-Rory-Miller/dp/1594392137).

I like this 'old guy' :D : http://defendyourself101.ca/ .

The best stuff I know of for evaluating strangers and situations on the street comes from the Managing Unknown Contacts (aka MUC) portion of a class called ECQC, Extreme Close Quarter Concepts. See http://shivworks.com/?page_id=881 for more, and search around on the web for some videos, class evaluations etc.

hth!
 
Librarian,

I am in sympathy with you for numerous reasons - not the least of which is because we are exactly the same age.

I'm not sure I properly understood what you're asking for. But I think you're seeking suggestions on strategies for non-lethal self defense.

Any man (or woman) who has reached the point at which he is willing to shed his own blood for the opportunity to spill someone else's, is a dangerous (wo)man.

What I mean to say by this is that, in my opinion, the first indispensable requirement for mounting a violent defense against a violent assault, is the ability to unleash the inner savage. Every now and again we hear stories of enraged, irate grandmothers who flail assailants into flight with their purses. That's the stuff I'm talking about. If you're unable to channel your inner savage you're best off handing over your wallet.

But if you are willing, the second indispensable requirement is to have a plan.

The third most important element, most likely to maximize the success of the plan, ot to make maximum creative use of the element of surprise. A young cocky assailant (or assailants) do not expect you to defend yourselves. After all, that's why they've chosen you for their next meal.

It would be irresponsible for me to suggest that you resort to real or improvised weapons as I'm not aware of the pertinent laws in your neck of the woods as to the use of force and deadly force.

However, certain items that do not look like weapons, and, in themselves, are not weapons, can be used as weapons. One of my favorites are those wicked long flashlights like police officers use. Such a flashlight is not only potentially effective, but potentially lethal. It can be swung like a club or punched or jabbed into the assailant's solar plexus. Since you say you have martial arts training I'm sure you don't need me to give you ideas.

In the past, whenever I'd have to travel and could not carry a "real" weapon I've often carried such a flashlight. With some creativity it can be hidden away in a backpack or computer case. There have been a couple of times that I was very glad I had it. Most of the time though it was simply cumbersome dead weight.

As a practical matter, it may do you little or no good. That is largely a matter of how important it is to you to wipe the smirk off the assailant's face. For me personally, that ability is of incalculable value, and is a huge victory in itself. Hiding inside every aggressive bully is a coward. Hiding inside every meek person is an inner savage.

Best to you both.

Vernon
 
I'm just a few years older than you are. I've had some recent experience moving about in dangerous urban environments (Athens, Greece, for example) both by myself and accompanied by my wife, and I have to say that I feel much safer and more in control when I'm by myself. Having to coordinate two people actually detracts from the defensive posture; you're watching each other instead of playing closer attention to your surroundings. BTW, when I was attacked, it was done in such a way that if I had had a gun, it wouldn't have done me a bit of good. Never underestimate your potential opponents; some of these guys are professionals.
 
Canes and some training gave us ( me 63 and her ??) much confidence. Im martial by nature and was a LEO but a disability limits me. Since you cant ccw, a cane trained couple with situational awareness will give you both a "do you really want to try me skippy? attitude.

Plus canes can go anywhere.
 
Librarian you should listen to Fred, he and his wife may have valuable advice for applying martial skills that you could also benefit from. I'd urge him to elaborate on his own practices and views :)

MacYoung is fine but I think he serves more as a reference point to keep people out of trouble and from having a stupid unrealistic attitude about SD. So once you buy into his stuff... well, ok... there is still a lot left to actually learn physically. It's not "hard skills" in other words.

There is a guy named Claude Werner that has a class called "Working With Others." He has done the best job of anyone I've seen as far as attempting to tailor material to women, older people, and others who often aren't considered in the usual run of the mill, LE/mil-trickle-down type tactical classes.

I don't think he travels to CA but he has a web presence on Totalprotectioninteractive.com and maybe other places. His company is called Firearms Safety Training LLC. He may know about appropriate training opportunities in your area, too. Yes I know you said you can't carry a gun but I'd ask him anyway.
 
If I had known you were interested, I would have called you for the Michael Janich Martial Blade Concepts 2 day seminar a couple of weeks ago in Mountain View...possibly the best $200 I've spent in a long time (it is based on: Stop the Attack, Escape to Safety). CA is pretty loose about the size of legally carried folding knives, with The City being the strictest with a limit of a 3" blade...more than enough for defense

I can also recommend the writings of Rory Miller...I'm reading Meditations on Violence and confirm that it rings true to the situations I've been in with my work.

If you aren't into carrying a cane, there is always the Combat Umbrella...I don't have one, but hso showed me his when he was in the area and I was very impressed
 
The above-mentioned reading is worthwhile, and I'll add a few things off the top of my head not relating to knives, sticks, or spray, or automobile SA, since that'll be well-discussed.

It may generate some controversy, as some of the 'answers' do not speak to fighting instinct, training, or those other things very relevant to a situation where there's nothing but violence to be had. There is a large 'discussion-space', a broad continuum, however, between deciding not to leave your home, ever again, and finding yourself ultimately in a situation in public, in which violence is inevitable. You have many more choices available before deciding whether or not, in the midst of an assault, a small lockingblade can reach the vital target of one among a number of physically formidable aggressors.

Organize your belongings. Purse-organization - high visibility/priority item. A touchy subject that your wife will address mostly on her own, but having an 'object of acquisition' (held by the physically weaker of a pair) is an extra vulnerability. Prioritize what's in there, be prepared for loss (or maybe a separated shoulder and a spill on the concrete in trying to prevent a 'snatch').

Know what's in your pockets, all the time. Keep hands free. Know beforehand, if you plan on buying memoribilia. Keep cash separate for distraction, or for an 'offering' (obviously under circumstances of significant numerical/physical disparity, lack of passersby, impracticable response, no avenue of exit).

Be conscious of the timing (ending late?) of the events. Protests? Party night?

GPS to supplement, rather than supplant, the use of a map, for roadways, for the immediate locality, for the BART train system. Memorize the stops, know your way around the train stop.

Know your routes. They don't have to be the same, every time. You may have to take a detour. Know how to get back. Know how to use alternative routes.

Know your coverage/reception limitations. know the phone so you can dial quickly and deliberately, and/or surreptitiously, if required. It is a significant tool in the toolbox.

Redundancy - You and your wife have equal responsibilities for awareness, alerting others, general communication, and response. Your wife may have a greater responsibility for the alert/communication aspects, if you feel you will be the primary in responding to immediate physical threats.

Friends/relatives in the loop as to your event itinerary, whenever you are out of your immediate local area. Always. Have them on speed-dial.

Nearest local dispatch number for your destination(s). Always. On speed-dial.

Don't be shy about (but, obviously, use discretion when) asking couples or groups of honest young men if you can 'tag along' to/from the destination. They may even go out of their way to escort you to your stop/location, or to your car. Get on trains, as the crowd gets on. Crowds, sometimes, have upsides. Feel hinky? There's always another train, always an opportunity to get off on a safer stop, or even remaining on the train beyond your stop, if necessary.

high-lumen-output compact flashlight makes you visible, helps your visibility, may buy you a small amount of time to run, to make calls, to sound alarms.

On noise ....

9v lanyard-pull electronic alarm box .... very loud. Have it in the purse (with lanyard easily accessible for a quick pull).

compact airhorn (boating/rv) .... very loud.

car alarms .... very loud, but limited to the parking area.

Good luck, stay safe.
 
9mmepiphany said:
If I had known you were interested, I would have called you for the Michael Janich Martial Blade Concepts 2 day seminar a couple of weeks ago in Mountain View...possibly the best $200 I've spent in a long time (it is based on: Stop the Attack, Escape to Safety). CA is pretty loose about the size of legally carried folding knives, with The City being the strictest with a limit of a 3" blade...more than enough for defense

I can also recommend the writings of Rory Miller...I'm reading Meditations on Violence and confirm that it rings true to the situations I've been in with my work.

If you aren't into carrying a cane, there is always the Combat Umbrella...I don't have one, but hso showed me his when he was in the area and I was very impressed
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A blade (or two) was my first thought also. :)
 
Here is my presentation from the 2011 Rangemaster Tactical Conference about Working With Others/Protecting Your Family.
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Thank, you, Claude! That's very close to what I was trying to do. Our emphasis is Avoid/Evade, and I guess we're at the 'decide what' stage. Great article at PDN, too.
If you aren't into carrying a cane, there is always the Combat Umbrella...I don't have one, but hso showed me his when he was in the area and I was very impressed
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Canes are OK, although I don't have a mobility problem for which a cane is useful; better yet! I do like the http://defendyourself101.ca/ guy; I have a couple of canes, and I actually do have one of those unbreakable umbrellas (now, if only it would, you know, rain around here, or even threaten. For those who might not know, large parts of California are very dry indeed, and snowmelt, accumulated into reservoirs, is an annual concern.) I'll look into a cane video - this one, (interestingly, from Michael Janich) is aimed directly at my age group. Funny how these people keep intersecting ...

Other items: I do carry a Benchmade and a Spyderco Rescue, but they're just utility things - not trained in knife combat (would not mind doing that) and really don't want to get into that kind of interaction; getting my choice in the matter may be difficult ...

EDC light is an Olight M20; each of us has a Photon on our keys.

BART has been around since the late 60's; besides the 'special occasion' trips, I was a BART commuter for many years; I've been on the system end to end and have gotten off and at least looked around at almost all the stations. Good suggestion.

Redundancy - You and your wife have equal responsibilities for awareness, alerting others, general communication, and response. Your wife may have a greater responsibility for the alert/communication aspects, if you feel you will be the primary in responding to immediate physical threats.
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Very likely the case, and with the info from Claude might be able to work out some details.

Thanks, folks; always lots to learn and this is a good place to ask questions.
 
Canes are OK, although I don't have a mobility problem for which a cane is useful
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That is the perfect time to have one. When you need one for mobility, you won't be able to use it...because you'll likely fall when you use it. :D

If you're up this way and have some extra time, 30 mins, give me a call and I show you some basic stuff you might find useful...you buy the coffee
 
If you're up this way and have some extra time, 30 mins, give me a call and I show you some basic stuff you might find useful...you buy the coffee
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Oh,I can just see that - we're in the Starbucks parking lot and someone calls in 'two old guys beating each other with canes!'
 
That might be highly amusing.

But I meant I'd show you some knife stuff...as a stop for the first cut.

Although "two old guys going at each other with blades", might not go over much better :D

I guess you'll have to come over to the house
 
I think it's important in this discussion to "start thinking past our guns" to quote Pike Bishop. While weapons are an important part of our defenses, they aren't the most important part.

Developing teamwork, communication, and SOPs is where I would place my emphasis. By the time weapons come out, the battle is already won or lost, depending on what you have or have not developed jointly ahead of time.
 
Thanks for the thread, Librarian. I applaud your mutual efforts concernig your personal safety. It's an arduous process with my wife but I'm making headway slow and sure. It has finally become second nature for her to keep the doors locked with an occasional reminder. That's progress around here!
 
Are Tazers legal where you live? I recently bought a Tazer C2 for my wife as she is a nurse going to work from a hospital parking lot in the dark. As long as there is no pepper spray or chemicals involved, the hospital is OK with Tazers. We are both older than you and thankfully live in a more understanding state. Even if the shooting type tazers are not legal where you live, the hand-held wand type might be easily concealed. I'm not saying break the law but do what you have to do to be safe.

The cane option might work as well. There are several types that would make a suitable deterrent. At least you wouldn't look like an easy mark. Sad to say but the bad guy would most likely wait for someone more vulnerable. Also a think about a three part Asp.

You said you couldn't move but if it were me I'd be outta there.

Self defense courses are better than nothing but as a former instructor, the bad guys/girls are most likely going to have surprise and strength on their side. Don't assume you will have much of a chance just because you have been through a self-defense course cause you won't. You will be lucky to even see the perpetrator as their favorite move is from behind their victim.
 
I'd personally recommend Pepper Spray as it serves a dual purpose against dog attacks. An Asp baton isn't an option where he lives....it's a felony
 
Pepper spray. Yes, good idea - is Foxlabs still the preferred brand? Don't have any; have to fix that.

We have long had an 'alert topic' for conversation on the street; did some review of that yesterday. If we're peacefully walking along and one or the other of us start talking, completely out of the blue, about Gilbert and Sullivan operas, that's the signal to move to the next higher level of alertness. (Gilbert and Sullivan - I told you we were nerds.)

Off to Jack London Square in Oakland tonight; the dinner date with friends is what got me actively thinking on this topic. Nice dinner, walk to and from the car was without incident, and that was aided by weather (windy, cool, about to rain) and a fair amount of foot traffic.

As we were making the less-than-a-block walk back to where I had parked on the street, I was speculating aloud on the habits of Youthful Independent Businessmen (hereafter YIB), and how we might interact with certain Business Opportunities.

It seems to me that 1 YIB against 2 pedestrians is unlikely; more probably there might be at least 2.

Tactically, that seems to break down into front-confrontation, real attack from the rear, or sneak-attack from the rear, reinforcement from the front. Friends wandering in from the sides, out of cars, out of doorways (I hope we would see that many and Not Be There...)

Continue to assume no guns; assume alert status is high and pepper spray containers are in-hand but not yet out.

What do you think of these responses?

Front stop: a YIB steps into the walkway to block it; there may be more than one; there may be overt aggression and/or weapons displayed.

Divide responsibilities: I focus on the front threat; wife steps back, behind me and faces back the way we have just come from. I figure I can actually see a 120-150 degree segment in front of me; she needs to cover the other 240 degrees, (because she is free to look around more; if I do, I lose contact with the front) and talk to me about approaching people. If incoming seem to match the YIB at the front, they are hostiles.

a) No hostiles from the rear: the front guys move on command or get sprayed. We book it. (Flee)
b) Hostiles at the rear announced - no time for commands, spray the front YIBs, turn to help engage the incoming, book it if we can before they arrive, hose down the population if we can't disengage, then flee.

There are refinements depending on time and threat level, but we absolutely need the distraction/capacity diminishment of the YIBs, because running is not in our capability.

===
Rear attack: somehow we miss a signal and a YIB steps out from behind and grabs Wife. (More likely - I'm bigger.)

Wife screams.

How she is grabbed determines next action, but for the next 10 or 15 seconds she's on her own, because I expect a co-ordinated attack from the front.

a1) grab 'weak' arm, spray YIB with canister in 'strong' hand. OR
a2) grab waist or around the neck, go to the ground - Wife is not a small girl, supporting her mass suddenly will not be easy. Recover orientation on the ground, spray up at YIB. OR
a3) other - haven't speculated further

b) No time for commands - spray the front YIBs.

c1) Turn, spray back YIB(s), including Wife if can't miss her (need some of the neutralizer - does that stuff work?).

c2) No front YIB? unexpected. Turn and slug turkey holding Wife.

d) Get up, disengage, flee.

You see what things trouble my dreams ...
 
There are no hard and fast rules about the interactions with YIB...however.

1. It is reasonable to expect that they will outnumber you
2. Always expect there to be one more than you'll see
3. Turning your back on one just because they haven't attacked yet is an invitation to disaster.
4. The last place you want to be is on the ground unless it is coordinated response to an attack.
5. There are more options available when you are both standing...ankles are tender, easy to access and very distracting
 
BART
always enjoyed riding it as a kid (yes oblivious tourist) rather busy, light and airy

That said, you can use canes or a walking stick, nothing sticks out, esp in the bay area, you can walk around all day with a heavy walking stick and light pack and NOBODY will give a second look. China town sells some nifty knife canes... but those are just for 'novelty'. I'd say peperspray and canes, Tazer's if legal (think they are) But realize Tazers are a one shot pony, if you both carried one, but the cane gives you something for contact range.

Lastly, a GOOD gym, nothing says you have to stay unfit.
 
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