Court tosses California video game ban

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SleazyRider

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Does anybody else here see the irony in yesterday's U.S. Supreme Court's 7-2 ruling that struck down a California law banning the sale of violent video games to minors? "Video games qualify for First Amendment protection," was the opinion written by Justice Antonin Scalia, and I suppose I agree; but why has the Court consistently permitted California to infringe upon the Second Amendment rights of its citizens but not the First?

My question may not be as rhetorical as it seems, if one considers that it's violent people that compromise public safety, not firearms. Even more perplexing is that many studies demonstrate a clear correlation between minors who play the games and later violent activities, many of which, I suspect, involve the use of firearms. I am unaware of the existence of any studies that suggest a link between early firearms education and later violent crime, as do the video games. Firearms canned be banned, but not "ultraviolent or sexually violent" videogames. I don't get it.
 
Though I agree with you, The Supreme Court does not just automatically strike down a law it finds unconstitutional. A case must be brought to it first. So an unconstitutional law can stand until a case is brought forth. And as far as gun laws are concerned, it has only been recently that the Supreme Court heard anything involving the 2n Amendment. Its gonna take time, and cases to overturn some of those laws. Even then, No one has any idea how far the courts will go to overturning state laws.
 
For a while the ussc just hid from any 2nd case. Now they aren't, but to date they haven't been brought a good case from ca. Same for my home state of nj.

The question is if anyone is working to do that.

As for violent video games, there is zero good research correlating them to violent actions. The closest to that are studies that measure an increase in "aggressive" behavior immediately after playing. What they consider aggressive is pretty mild, and the pattern of behavior they describe holds true shortly after doing any stimulating activity, including watching sports, playing non violent competitive games, handling firearms, looking at pictures of attractive people, etc.
 
Even more perplexing is that many studies demonstrate a clear correlation between minors who play the games and later violent activities,

Those are cherry picked studies by people with an agenda. The same type of studies can be dug up to cast firearms ownership in a negative light too. They're just as invalid.

You can also find other studies that show a NEGATIVE correlation which suggest that people who are able to vent frustrations in a simulated environment like a video game are less likely to vent such frustrations in real life. Not sure I'd believe that either, but understand that anyone with an agenda can find SOME study to support it.

Realistically, this ruling was a victory for the 1st amendment. Hopefully some of the 2nd amendment stuff will make it up to the supreme court too, but we shouldn't be faulting one victory for our freedoms just because we haven't won a different battle.
 
Same for my home state of nj. ... The question is if anyone is working to do that.

I was hoping that feller who was kidnaped last year from his Newton, NJ, pet-food store would do just that, but I see he was recently granted a permit to carry a concealed weapon by a county judge. (I'm thinking his permit has a lot of conditions attached, however.)
 
David Kopel, over at The Volokh Conspiracy, shows how this ruling might very well affect future gun rights cases, where the opposition is almost always espousing the "weapons effect" in making and upholding their laws.

This case is very related to guns rights and litigation.
 
Perhaps I am in error, CoRoMo, as assumed they did. On a similar note, if the Supreme Court refuses to hear a case, could that not, for all intents and purposes, become a "ruling" in its own right?
 
SUPREME DEMONSTRATION!
FINISH HIM!

It's impossible to know for certain, but I suspect that the reason for this lopsided decision had a great deal to do with the fact that every single male law clerk behind the scenes--the ones who do the leg work and ghost write a lot of the opinions--grew up playing games such as Mortal Kombat.

The tie in with firearms is pretty clear. The more familiar lawmakers and court personnel are with the technical side of things from first hand experience, the less likely they are to buy into the nonsense. Again, knowledge is the path to victory. An AR-15 is easy to ban if you've never held one, never shot one, and know few who have. But when half the people at your range own and shoot them it gets much more difficult to believe that a bayonet lug or flash hider is the gateway to crime. And when Scalia finds out that his best clerks were ripping heads and spines out of beaten foes but turned out just fine, that has to have an impact.

Plus I think he gets online at night to gibb the noobs, old school.
 
Anyone take a glance at Justice Thomas's dissent?

"The historical evidence shows that the founding generation believed parents had absolute authority over their minor children and expected parents to use that authority to direct the proper development of their children. It would be absurd to suggest that such a society understood “the freedom of speech” to include a right to speak to minors (or a corresponding right of minors to access speech) without going through the minors’ parents. The founding generation would not have considered abridgment of “the freedom of speech” to support parental authority by restricting speech that bypasses minors’ parents."

He also references Puritans quite frequently. This "originalists" view, claiming restrained and faithful in their constitutional interpretation, should in theory, bode well for more reaffirmations of our 2nd amendment rights. But as a "young person" who can't always keep up with current technology at times, it quite frankly terrifies me to hear 1700's Puritanical babble being put forth by the SCOUS. I would say get with the times, but it's more like get in the correct century!!!
 
It's impossible to know for certain, but I suspect that the reason for this lopsided decision had a great deal to do with the fact that every single male law clerk behind the scenes--the ones who do the leg work and ghost write a lot of the opinions--grew up playing games such as Mortal Kombat.

That probably does have some bearing. There seems to be a knee-jerk reaction from many older people that boils down to "them thar vidja games is worthless wastes of time!". It's important to understand that "Nintendo Generation" is starting to get up into some age now. Just about anybody under 40 these days had a LOT of exposure to video games growing up. Most STILL do. I'm just about 30 and have no problems admitting that I still play games, as do most other guys I know my age. It's not a kids thing anymore - you have people who have grown up partaking in this as an activity and still enjoy it. Heck some of the most engrossing stories to be experienced have been delivered via video games. I've NEVER found a novel or other work that could compare to the stories presented in Planescape: Torment, the Baldur's Gate series, Neverwinter Nights, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic, Jade Empire, Dragon Age, etc (okay, so I'm a big Bioware fan :)).

Plus, understand that as firearms enthusiasts, attracting younger shooters to the sport is CRITICAL. One of the main things that brings in new shooters these days is VIDEO GAMES. They grow up shooting the on-screen version of these weapons and when they become adults they want to try them out. Sure, it probably is a lot of the "tacticool" crowd (though the bias against them is largely unwarranted to), but in many ways the video games of today are drawing in shooters much like the old hokey westerns of yesterday brought in new guys way back when.

fulltanghalo: That whole opinion is backwards in the first place. The parents should and do have absolute control over what their kids can play. That's what the ratings system is there for. If you don't want you kids to play a violent game, don't buy or let them buy anything with an M rating. This case though, is about the STATE restricting material, not parents. Also at issue is the special treatment of video games. Merchants can VOLUNTARILY restrict sales of mature music or movies to minors, but there is no state law stating that they HAVE TO. Why should video games be singled out versus other media?
 
Firearms [can] be banned, but not "ultraviolent or sexually violent" videogames. I don't get it.

No, according to the supreme court in DC v Heller, firearms cannot be banned.
 
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Anyone take a glance at Justice Thomas's dissent?

"The historical evidence shows that the founding generation believed parents had absolute authority over their minor children and expected parents to use that authority to direct the proper development of their children. It would be absurd to suggest that such a society understood “the freedom of speech” to include a right to speak to minors (or a corresponding right of minors to access speech) without going through the minors’ parents. The founding generation would not have considered abridgment of “the freedom of speech” to support parental authority by restricting speech that bypasses minors’ parents."

He also references Puritans quite frequently. This "originalists" view, claiming restrained and faithful in their constitutional interpretation, should in theory, bode well for more reaffirmations of our 2nd amendment rights. But as a "young person" who can't always keep up with current technology at times, it quite frankly terrifies me to hear 1700's Puritanical babble being put forth by the SCOUS. I would say get with the times, but it's more like get in the correct century!!!

Clarence Thomas really has no business on the supreme court. He is a disgrace.
 
The supreme court, if you actually read their opinion, specifically said that it didn't consider whether violent video games caused kids to be violent, and felt that such determinations were out of its purview. *

The case was decided on purely first-amendment grounds, and the very short opinion has two important parts.

1) video games count as free expression just the same as books, movies, and other media

2) violence is not obscenity, and is not sufficient grounds to restrict the first amendment. For example, many books which it would be unconstitutional for the state to ban contain violence.

*"We have no business passing judgment on the view of the California Legislature that violent video games (or, for that matter, any other forms of speech) corrupt the young or harm their moral development. Our task is only to say whether or not such works constitute a “well-defined and narrowly limited clas of speech, the prevention and punishment of which have never been thought to raise any Constitutional problem,” Chaplinsky, 315 U. S., at 571– 572 (the answer plainly is no); and if not, whether the regulation of such works is justified by that high degree of necessity we have described as a compelling state interest (it is not). Even where the protection of children is the object, the constitutional limits on governmental action apply."
 
Actually Sleazy, the studies linking violence and Video games are generally poorly done, and so far there has been NO real correlation between the two.

Scalia explored this very aspect of flawed "research" rather deeply in his opinion.

Violence predates technology.

I find more killing in the original Conan books, or even "tom swift and the electric rifle" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Swift_and_His_Electric_Rifle)

I was reading these books before I Hit 10, and I'm not out there lopping heads, even with the violent imagery created in my own mind's flights of fancy while engrossed in the pages..
 
There is "zero" collelation between video cartoons depicting guns and the real thing. This decision was purely a 1st Amendment issue and it had NOTHING to do with the 2nd Amendment that gives Americans the right to own guns.
 
Perhaps I am in error, CoRoMo, as assumed they did. On a similar note, if the Supreme Court refuses to hear a case, could that not, for all intents and purposes, become a "ruling" in its own right?

No. All it means is the lower court ruling stands. It has no effect on precedent.
 
For a while the ussc just hid from any 2nd case. Now they aren't, but to date they haven't been brought a good case from ca. Same for my home state of nj.

The question is if anyone is working to do that.

California has the Richards and Peruta cases working their way up the federal appellate court system--one of them or a combined case may eventually make it to the SCOTUS.
 
raz-0 said:
For a while the ussc just hid from any 2nd case. Now they aren't, but to date they haven't been brought a good case from ca. Same for my home state of nj.

The question is if anyone is working to do that.

It takes a long time (4+ years) for a case to work it's way up to SCOTUS.

Since CA does not have a "Second Amendment" in it's state constitution, CA has to wait for SCOTUS to rule that the Second Amendment is an individual right (Heller) and for SCOTUS to incorporate the Second Amendment (McDonald).

There are some good cases in CA that are working it's way through the court systems. But, they won't be making "news" for, at least, another 2-3 years.
 
As for violent video games, there is zero good research correlating them to violent actions. The closest to that are studies that measure an increase in "aggressive" behavior immediately after playing. What they consider aggressive is pretty mild, and the pattern of behavior they describe holds true shortly after doing any stimulating activity, including watching sports, playing non violent competitive games, handling firearms, looking at pictures of attractive people, etc.

I used to work with a bunch of Ex-EA guys who worked on Need for Speed back when I was in the industry. They told a pretty good story about how many speeding tickets their QA testers would get leaving work when working on those titles.

Granted I think there's a huge mental shift to go from speeding to violent action. Still was really interesting to hear about the short term effects on people who played 10-14 hours a day.
 
rajb123 said:
There is "zero" collelation between video cartoons depicting guns and the real thing. This decision was purely a 1st Amendment issue and it had NOTHING to do with the 2nd Amendment that gives Americans the right to own guns.


On the contrary, I am inclined to believe that video games do in fact make a person more comfortable with a course of action they have repeatedly simulated.


The military has studied this before.

One of the primary things they did was create simulations where a person repeatedly makes the decision to fire at what represents a human being.
Video game type training simulations are one way they have done this.
By simulating continually making the decision to shoot a human being ( along with other actions) individuals would become more accustomed to following that course of action, even when presented with the real thing.
Of course today the military no longer needs to focus on that training, most of the current generation of soldiers grew up playing first person shooter games.
The current generation of soldiers will shoot the enemy almost every time, there is less hesitancy than almost any time in history.


It is true that firing real guns and firing pretend weapons in a game does not translate into any form of firearms proficiency. The muscle memory is nothing alike, and there is no real muzzle blast, recoil, and other stimuli in shooting an actual firearm. And most of the games don't even have anywhere near realistic ballistics.
No video games don't make a person a better physical shooter.
What they do is make a person more comfortable with putting a person in their sights and pulling the trigger.
This has been of tremendous benefit to the military.


Now don't get me wrong, video games do not overcome a person's morals. It is still the individual and their values and decisions that determine when they make a choice to shoot another human being. Violent games or simulations do not make a good person a bad person.
What violent simulation does is make the mental steps required a more fluid process, something that has been practiced before.

In times past they used to have to dehumanize the enemy in propaganda to get more people comfortable with killing them. They would think of them as horrible people, often racism was exploited when the two sides were of different general ethnicity. You can find such examples expressed in caricatures of past wars.
But today most of those requirements are absent. You tell a soldier who the bad guy is and they will readily shoot them.





I also think a lot of the popular shooter games children grow up playing a soldier in are good for military recruiters. Kids who grow up playing such games are more likely to join the military.
It may be nothing like reality, but they are already in the military by the time they know that first hand. Banning such games would probably have a long term corresponding drop in military recruitment.
Prior generations had children growing up shooting, boyscouts, and more outdoor activities and things that could lead to a desire for a military career.
Today half the population of children are fat sitting at home in a more urban environment, and video games are important for exposing them to things that may lead to an interest in the military.
Important when you are dependent on a voluntary military force, and the military arm for much of the world.
 
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Doesn't anyone realize you have to be 18 to buy these "ultraviolent" games?

Um, no that was the law that was just struck down. A merchant can voluntarily restrict the sales, but it has been deemed unconstitutional for the state to require that the purchaser be 18.
 
In Brown v EMA, the argument made to justify the bans affecting first amendment issues was that the violent video games caused violent behavior and the state had a compelling interest in controlling violent behavior.

The Supreme Court said that the state must demonstrate the law passes "strict scrutiny" since it involves a right: "it is justified by a compelling government interest and is narrowly drawn to serve that interest."

The majority opinion stated "Psychological studies purporting to show a connection between exposure to violent video games and harmful effects on children do not prove that such exposure causes minors to act aggressively."

So a 1st Amendment ban based on unproven theory does not support a "compelling state interest" and an outright ban is not "narrowly drawn".

Similarly, there is really no compelling research that supports the theory that gun ownership by the average citizen causes violent or criminal behavior.

David Kopel in his post at Volokh Conspiracy (linked by Al Norris in post #6) believes that the "weapons effect" used to justify gun bans is subject to the same criticism as the claim that violent videos cause aggression, and that "strict scrutiny" will be applied in future SCOTUS gun cases.

James D. Wright, Peter Rossi, Kathleen Day, "Under the Gun", Aldine (1983), the commercial publication of the Wright & Rossi study for the US DOJ gun control project "Guns Crime and Violence in America" 1977-1981, dealt with these issues in Chapter 7, "On Crime and Private Weapons": "(1) private weapons as a cause of crime, (2) private weapons as a effect of crime, and (3) private weapons as a deterrent to crime."

"Although there is much speculation, surprisingly little empirical research has been done on firearms as a cause of criminal violence."--Wright, Rossi & Daly 1983. The same conclusion as the NAS NRC "Firearms and Violence" 2004 review of gun policy and research over twenty years later. While "guns cause crime" is strongly believed by many, it has not been proven through empirical research, but many gun control laws are justified by what is basicly just an assumption that guns cause crimimal behavior and restricting guns will restrict criminal behavior.

The main academic assumption behind support for gun control in the 1950s and 1960s that motivated the 1968 Gun Control Act (an assumption that informs the predominant left-liberal position on guns today and the basis of much gun control in the past, eg the Sullivan Act of 1911) was the assumption that guns were a cause of crime and the state had a compelling interest in restricting or banning guns in order to control crime.

Since the Supreme Court has recognized the Second Amendment as an individual right, same as free speech, restriction on that right should meet "strict scrutiny" and should serve a "compelling state interest". Does an unfounded assumption (however longly or strongly held by many) stand up to strict scrutiny?

It would be nice to deal with crime by going back to dealing with overt acts that are malum in se rather than wasting effort on punishing people for owning things that malum only because they are prohibitum.
 
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