Crimp question

[Akula69]

I finally made my foray into loading 30-30 for my trusty Marlin.

I had started with new Winchester brass, and just for grins and giggles I ran them through the sizing die, then started to load them. Upon the first crimp attempt I could push the projectile into the case easily, and began adjusting it until I could not (Hornady FTX 160 grain .308 caliber). The die was not even camming the press over - so I was OK with it.

In checking the crimp that did work however, I find it looks deep, and in some cases it actually has the marks from the crimp die extruded from the brass at the case mouth!


Just to be sure I wasn't insane or blind, I took out two factory rounds to compare the crimps. The first is a Remington Corelok, and in that case of twenty rounds several had the same telltale die extrusions on the crimp. (picture of Remington next to Hornady).


Then, I compared a Federal Fusion round to the Hornady...they had a looser crimp.


Is my crimp too much? and, if this crimp is necessary to ensure no bullet setback (remember - its a tubular magazine on this beast)...what could I be doing wrong?

Thanks in advance!

Edited to change projectile diameter.

 

[eddiememphis]

Have you measured and compared everything? It looks like the cannelure on the Hornady is deeper.

 

[Reloadron]

The crimp in the first image looks more like a roll crimp than a taper crimp normally used on bottle neck cartridges. Not sure how you got that. When seating a bullet it should not require much force and the taper crimps should look like what you see on your factory loads. Looks like you are running the seating die too low.

Ron

 

[Mark_Mark]

I love a heavy CRIMP!!! beautiful!!!

 

[Reloadron]

I love a heavy CRIMP!!! beautiful!!!

Well we sure don't need worry about the bullets moving do we?

Ron

 

[Mark_Mark]

Well we sure don't need worry about the bullets moving do we?

Ron

have you ever tried to pull a over crimp round with a kenetic hammer? So, No, it’s not moving a millimeter

 

[Walkalong]

Probably a little more crimp than needed, but it looks better than the factory offerings pictured.

 

[243winxb]

I had started with new Winchester brass, and just for grins and giggles I ran them through the sizing die, then started to load them. Upon the first crimp attempt I could push the projectile into the case easily,

Neck tension should hold the bullet, so that it doesnt move, before any crimp is applied.

 

[MEHavey]

I had started with new Winchester brass, and just for grins and giggles I ran them through the sizing die,
then started to load them. Upon the first crimp attempt I could push the projectile into the case easily,
and began adjusting it until I could not (Hornady FTX 160 grain .30 caliber).
The die was not even camming the press over

We have a problem here:

- Properly sized/expanded cases should require NO crimp to lock the bullet by neck tension only

- The crimping operation does not "cam-over." If that much mouth/bullet deformation force is involved, you're in trouble somewhere else.


Sugestion:
- Back the die body off totally from any contact with the case.
- Screw the seating stem (only) down to seat the bullet to mid cannelure.

Try and move the bullet. It shouldn't budge.

 

[Jesse Heywood]

Neck tension should hold the bullet, so that it doesnt move, before any crimp is applied.

Agreed. I would chuck the expander in a lathe or drill motor and remove metal the bullet seats snugly. You will then need less crimp.

 

[Hugger-4641]

Agreed. I would chuck the expander in a lathe or drill motor and remove metal the bullet seats snugly. You will then need less crimp.

No, you should not need to adjust the expander mandrel!! Adjusting the seating die is probably all that is needed.

 

[twarr1]

Upon the first crimp attempt I could push the projectile into the case easily

Something is wrong before you get to the crimping stage. Neck tension should hold the bullet enough you can't move it by hand. Like @Reloadron mentioned, it looks more like a roll crimp to me. Have you carefully checked the dies?

 

[Ironicaintit]

Id measure the OD of that expander. You “shouldn’t” have to fiddle with it, but sometimes we do.
Proper neck tension won’t allow the bullet to easily move.

 

[edwardware]

Upon the first crimp attempt I could push the projectile into the case easily. . .

Then you failed to accomplish at least one preceding step correctly, and you will never fix that shortcoming with crimp.

The interference fit of a bullet in the neck is more than sufficient to retain they bullet against moderate force by hand. Your sizing operation is likely badly mistaken.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I don’t use a neck expander for cartridges that are going into a loading gate and tube magazine. I resize, flare the case mouth using a Lee universal case mouth expander die, then seat the bullet and let it expand the neck as needed. I do use a Lee FCD for all of my rifle loads; the FCD does apply a kind of aggressive crimp in .30-30 and .35Rem.
Try not expanding the case necks and just expand the mouth enough to start the bullet through the seating die. Do two or three. See how that works for you.

 

[Akula69]

Have you measured and compared everything? It looks like the cannelure on the Hornady is deeper.

Yes. The COL is 2.535 on all three examples.

We have a problem here:

- Properly sized/expanded cases should require NO crimp to lock the bullet by neck tension only

- The crimping operation does not "cam-over." If that much mouth/bullet deformation force is involved, you're in trouble somewhere else.


Sugestion:
- Back the die body off totally from any contact with the case.
- Screw the seating stem (only) down to seat the bullet to mid cannelure.

Try and move the bullet. It shouldn't budge.

I had removed the neck expansion mandrel entirely from the sizing die. The projectile inserts freely with little to no tension to hold it in place. I checked the neck exterior and interior for dimension (per the Hornady chart) and they are within .005. The projectiles are constant at .302 - .305, I am assuming the next thing you will say is the sizing die is incorrectly set...I will check that tonight (after shift).

Agreed. I would chuck the expander in a lathe or drill motor and remove metal the bullet seats snugly. You will then need less crimp.

Expander mandrel was not used, but it measures dead nuts on at .030.

Then you failed to accomplish at least one preceding step correctly, and you will never fix that shortcoming with crimp.

The interference fit of a bullet in the neck is more than sufficient to retain they bullet against moderate force by hand. Your sizing operation is likely badly mistaken.

Thanks.

I don’t use a neck expander for cartridges that are going into a loading gate and tube magazine. I resize, flare the case mouth using a Lee universal case mouth expander die, then seat the bullet and let it expand the neck as needed. I do use a Lee FCD for all of my rifle loads; the FCD does apply a kind of aggressive crimp in .30-30 and .35Rem.
Try not expanding the case necks and just expand the mouth enough to start the bullet through the seating die. Do two or three. See how that works for you.

As stated before, I didn't use the mandrel in the sizing die. I need to get an ID on the case mouth before I go any further to see if the culprit is the sizing die itself. However, I do have the Lee universal case expander and will use it if I can get the case mouth small enough to hold the projectile by neck tension only.

Edited to change projectile diameter.

 

[Walkalong]

I had removed the neck expansion mandrel entirely from the sizing die. The projectile inserts freely with little to no tension to hold it in place. I checked the neck exterior and interior for dimension (per the Hornady chart) and they are within .005. The projectiles are constant at .032 - .035, I am assuming the next thing you will say is the sizing die is incorrectly set...I will check that tonight (after shift).

Something is very wrong, neck ID should vary very little, but you need to double check that, I like to use pin gauge if it’s questionable or there’s an issue. Projectiles should be consistently .308. Leaving the expander plug out of the sizer you should have oodles on neck tension. Is the sizer touching or nearly touching the shell holder while sizing?

 

[MEHavey]

I had removed the neck expansion mandrel entirely from the sizing die.
The projectile inserts freely with little to no tension to hold it in place

[As Walkalong notes]: Something is very wrong with either the sizing die or the bullet.
Even incompletely screwed down, the sizing die ought to reduce the neck more than
enough to hold the bullet without any further crimping.



postscript: Did you mention who makes the dies?
.

 

[lordpaxman]

As others have stated, you need to get the neck tension correct first. I do use a roll crimp on my .30-30 loads. My RCBS dies say roll crimp, and I’ll keep using them especially when they line up in that mag and slam into the receiver. Good luck.

 

[Akula69]

Projectiles should be consistently .308.

And therein may be the problem. The projectiles are measuring .305 +-.002

postscript: Did you mention who makes the dies?.

Lee. And although I've not ever had a problem with them in the past....there is a first time for everything.

I am going to tear them down and re-size the cases using the mandrel. I have ball calipers (but never thought to use them on new factory cases - hmmm. note for future...). I have some .308 rounds (that are actually .308) that I will test fit to the case to determine what is going on and report back.

To all: Thanks for all the assistance!

 

[243winxb]

The projectiles are constant at .032 - .035

Bullet diameter should be .308" Some very old bullets were .307" many years ago.

 

[Targa]

I am using Lee dies as well, here are two examples of my cast bullets and the crimp. The one on the left is 150 grains (seated a bit shallow but you get an idea of the crimp) and the one on the right is 170 grains. Since they are cast bullets, these are sized to .309 as the barrel on my Winchester slugged at .308.

 

[Charlie98]

And therein may be the problem. The projectiles are measuring .305 +-.002

Absolutely.

Aside from what everyone else has been suggesting, I'll throw my .02 worth in there. Once you find a correctly sized bullet, and get all that sorted out, I would suggest easing back into the crimp. .30-30 brass is thin already, and trying to put too much crimp in will likely buckle the cases... I've probably ruined more .30-30 brass in this manner than any other cartridge. I used to be paranoid about bullets moving under recoil, and would try to put the patented Charlie98 Death Grip Crimp on everything I loaded... the .30-30 called my bluff. Like others have mentioned, neck tension is what holds the bullet, a little crimp keeps it from setting back in a tubular magazine... that's all.

I am still in recovery, however. Although I've gotten to the point where I don't even crimp rifle bullets going into semiauto box magazines, I still find myself looking at my roller crimps wistfully. Usually a meeting or two at OA (Overcrimpers Anonymous) will put me back on the wagon.

 

[Soonerpesek]

The projectiles are constant at .302 - .305

It seems to be that this is the current reason for your issues.
I'm far from being a genius, but I would correct this issue first.......

 

[FROGO207]

So are the ones in the box that small? Or are you sizing them down when you attempted to crimp them?