Cultural shifts relating to firearms

[Riomouse911]

"We" didn't. Just people who generally aren't into guns or have much interested in learning the facts about them built IT-related media empires. Amazon and Alphabet are just the tip of the iceberg and their popularity has magnified the echo chamber to incredible proportions. That's where certain politicians have found common ground and a way to perpetuate their opinions.

I know. I'm a hard-boiled, bona fide geek, with an extensive background in telecommunications. I've just been into guns (as well as mechanics and anything motorized) just as much as I've been into electronics, computers and communications. I've been a COMPLETE anomaly in these circles, with few peers.

Much like you rarely got to read any articles about guns in non-specialized publications of yore and when you did, their point of view and idea of facts were nothing short of ridiculous. That world has just expanded into an Internet realm.

There are lots of special interest sites and online publications about guns, of course. Just don't expect anyone else to have an objective or informed perspective in the subject.

Hmmm, that’s the complete opposite of my offices’ IT group, the men and women there are almost all into firearms and shooting.

Too bad your peers aren’t gun folks .

Stay safe.

 

[DustyGmt]

Seems to be headed that way, but in some respects, it has been since the early 80's or so, and a lot seems to depend on where you are, and who youre talking to.

If you think firearms, in general, are a problem, you should see what it can be like in the NFA community. Aintigunners arent the only ones who seem to have a problem with you, although it was always entertaining when the anti-gunners (read that teachers ) found out when they asked the kids what you did over the weekend, summer, etc, and my kids told them they were shooting machineguns. I wish Id recorded the phone calls I got.

I got a lot of flack from the trap shooters and hunters at a couple of "sportsmans" clubs I belonged too as well, and I dont doubt for a minute if things went south, and they thought that by giving you up would save them from losing their stuff, they'd do it in a heart beat. Ive had a couple tell me exactly that too.

A lot of those same people didnt like things like AR's, or people wanting to shoot things like that, or handguns a little more realistically, that slow fire on a bullseye target.

I actually think what went on the past couple of years was a good thing for the gun community, with so many people buying guns, that in the past probably wouldnt have. In some respects, I think a lot of people learned a lot about exercising "their rights", and are more in tune with that now. Thats not a bad thing.

I haven't heard much anti gun sentiments from my trap group, but almost all of them are in their 60's, 70's and 80's and I know that when somebody is clapping away with their semi auto at the upper rifle/pistol range during a weekend trap shoot they all sort of share the same eye roll, "who the hell needs to shoot off all that ammo" look, but I'm not sure if it's a "nobody needs a gun that can do that" attitude or more of a "the truly skilled don't need more than a couple well aimed shots" kind of deal. I'm guessing it could be a lil bit of both. I've heard some mild grumbling but nothing that raised the heart rate too bad....lol.

It's unfortunate the amount of folks who claim to be solidly pro gun but will completely dismiss any firearm that accepts a detachable box magazine or double stack.

I will ask my daughter to dig out her assignment, I'm honestly hanging my head low for not stashing it in my vault where it should be. I'm going to make it a point to locate that because I was quite proud of it. I don't shove the stuff down her throat but her writings show me that she's been paying attention and more importantly, forming her own opinion about it. She noticed that for most of her 6th grade school year, her teacher made politics and the previous administration's "failings" a regular topic but inexplicably after about January all the political talk and classroom discussions halted. She made several comments to me about her "activist" teacher. Even in her young but very wise mind she was able to identify the hypocrisy and said that her classmates were very short on facts and eager to align themselves with the teachers viewpoints.

 

[GEM]

While doom and gloom is fun on the Internet gun world, there are indications of change. Google the increase in firearms purchasing in demographics outside of the cliched 'pale and male'. Now before you get excited that term is from an industry magazine discussing how to move out of that group to increase your sales. Minorities and women show tremendous sales growth. There are also gun rights supporters growing on the left side of the aisle. Now that annoys the folks who just want the gun club to be their kind of conservative. But that's a bad strategy.

To that point, here's a good read on why the left side needs to rethink the gun issue:
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/11/16/Democrats-gun-owners-522562

 

[hq]

Too bad your peers aren’t gun folks .

Stay safe.

Thanks.

I was talking about ancient history. 1980's and early 90's when I was an avid hobbyist, studied at a tech university, worked at the IT department of a bank and (co-)founded my first companies.

These days things are quite different. As CEO I have a bit of say what kind of people are being employed - pro civil liberty or indifferent is fine, openly anti-anything and the applicant has to have the skillset of Stephen Hawking to get hired. It's not just about guns or any other specific subject, irrationally authoritarian "whiny" eg. "woke" people who expect the workplace and eventually the world to revolve around their demands poison any community.

I also have a habit of mentoring people into activities they've never tried before. It just so happened that one of our investors picked up hunting recently, a planned company event next summer will be skeet shooting themed and so on. I never pressure anyone into anything, of course. Just sow the seeds of ideas and be the first to assist when they grow...

 

[goon]

I was just looking over the "Do you remember when firearms were proudly displayed?" thread and it got me thinking about the cultural shift concerning how firearms are viewed in society now. I know it didn't happen over night and there has been a slow but unrelenting campaign against firearms and by extension firearm owners for decades. I'm just aghast at how bad it is now, considering we are a country with a long history of being a gun and freedom loving country with 70,000,000+ firearms in circulation with the population, more and counting with the recent surge in gun sales.

I just find it odd that in certain scenarios it seems like it's almost in poor taste to even mention firearms. My daughter had a 6th grade school project last year and the students were supposed to pick a political issue and make their case for or against and my daughter (unprompted by me) chose to make a case for the right of the people to own Semi Auto firearms and "high capacity magazines", etc... and all the students were tasked with getting up and reading their piece in front of the class and present their argument, etc and my daughter was the only one who had her viewpoint and position challenged by the teacher. Mind you none of the other students had this pressure component.

I'm proud of her though because she typically shy's away from controversial topics and avoids the heat and I didn't even know she was working on this project until she was almost finished with it and came in to ask me ne question and I looked over her work and was very impressed with what she had put together and helped her a lil toward the finish and she was very articulate and raised very good points. If anybody is interested in seeing what this 12 year old did let me know I'll see if I can dig it out but anyway....

I'm glad to see so many new folks getting into guns and maybe there will be a shift in how people view ownership and might not be so Gung Ho for restrictions and bans, etc. Just the other day I was looking for a recoil pad on Amazon and they had the image of the gun, a bolt action rifle btw, blurred and fuzzed out like it was a dirty image. I thought perhaps it was just to accentuate the recoil pad but I searched for other firearm related items and the images of the actual gun itself was fuzzed out. Smh. How the xxxx did we get there ?

Is it only a matter of time before you can't even view a YouTube video involving firearms or even having the topic banned? Just kind of going in circles on this, not a terribly focused thread. Just saying. Thoughts?

I wrote a paper on the significance of the repeating rifle in my senior year AP English class. The teacher was a bit of an old school lefty and she challenged me plenty, but I still got an A. Truthfully, my paper wasn’t very balanced though - she was correct to criticize that.

Gun rights have actually made some significant advances in my lifetime. During the shooting at Luby’s Cafe, Dr. Susanna Gratia Hupp had a firearm in her car - but she didn’t carry it at the time because it was illegal in Texas. Sadly, it took a mass shooting to spur gun rights back. Now CCW is more legal and accepted. The other thing is that in the 50’s, a person probably didn’t identify as a “gun owner” even if you had a room full of them. It was kind of a normal occurrence. Somewhere it became a little less normal, then it became a political identity. There is a guy who writes about this as a psychological point - he often emphasizes that “guns are normal, and normal people own guns.”

Also, the first open carry protests I’m aware of were done by the Black Panthers in the 60’s. IIRC, then Governor Ronald Reagan pushed to criminalize this. Now we see open carry protests with semi-auto rifles everywhere. I don’t have a problem with semi-auto rifles, but the idea to go protest with them has been reborn in the last decade or so.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

FWIW for what's it worth at the gun shops/ranges I go to I see lots of citizens of "color", recent immigrants, First Generation Americans who are taking up the shooting sports with enthusiasm, embracing the RKBA as part of the American heritage. As noted-as the current furor over CRT and other quackademic ideas shows-schools? As William Bennett put it it, "When Liberals talk about education, what they really mean is 'indoctrination'.

 

[CDW4ME]

Vocal minority, most of media in alignment with D party, schools tend to be in line.

In the 70's - 80's kids didn't get suspended for making a finger gun, or drawing a gun.

"Guns are bad" is more in line with the D party, vocal minority (which gets their way).
OMG you used the wrong pronoun, OMG that kid said their are two genders, suspend him.

But, in the 70's - 80's few states had legal concealed carry compared to now; more people are carrying in public now than then.
In the 70s - 80s armed teachers? Nope. Now, in some places yea.

So despite that guns are more common now and carried by people in public much more, vocal minority with socialist tendencies says GUNS ARE BAD.

 

[FL-NC]

I think the 2 factors that matter most are region and level of indoctrination.

 

[Reloadron]

It's out and out indoctrination, and the college students that were in the 4-H shooting Sports that I led know it, too. They keep their mouths shut and heads down until they can get their sheepskin and get out.

Indoctrination, that's the word I wanted to use. I sat here thinking and could not remember the correct word. Thank you...

Ron

 

[Old Dog]

The other reason is that you don't know what the other person's sensitivities are. For all you know, the person, or a member of their family, may have been a victim of gun misuse.

Okay, I had to circle back to this statement as an example of a cultural shift that's nothing to do with gun. This concept is exactly an example of how and why we got to our present state of "woke" P.C. silliness

For generations, firearms were regarded as tools, objects, that in and of themselves cannot -- or at least, should not -- affect another's "sensitivities." What if I had a family member murdered with a kitchen knife? Does the mere existence of this tool, and the knowledge that someone -- the horror -- owns several of them -- affect my sensitivities?

It's only been in the past couple of decades that all guns and their very existence are suddenly regarded as evil.

We have to stop this idea that inanimate objects are always triggers for past trauma. How many of us -- myself included -- who've lost family AND friends to motor vehicle accidents have stopped driving or avoid automobiles?

OP -- looks as though you've done a fine job of raising your daughter. Respect!

 

[bassjam]

There's a cultural shift on both the pro guns and anti gun side. The pro-gun side has had enough of the pushback over the years, and I believe has been emboldened by pro 2nd A state laws that have passed over the last couple decades as well as a fairly significant win in the Supreme Court. There's a fringe group now that wants to be "in your face" about their rights. They're the ones who will show up at coffee shops with an AR15 strapped to their back, just to prove that they can. Maybe their entire rear window of their truck is covered by gun manufacturer stickers, and every t-shirt they wear in public proudly displays their affection for firearms and the 2nd Amendment. I get it, and there's no reason to be ashamed of our views but this more passive aggressive tactic seems to make the more extreme on the other side froth at the mouth that anyone should dare to do such a thing. So now there's 2 opposing forces with absolute hatred for each other at the extreme ends of the 2nd Amendment argument where it wasn't so long ago it was more "let's not talk about that". The pushback from the other side are the ones who will go so far as to call the police when a kid shapes his pop-tart into the shape of a firearm. Again, those aren't the majority but both sides let their opinion of the other side be dictated by those who tend to be more extreme who grab headlines.

 

[AlexanderA]

For generations, firearms were regarded as tools, objects, that in and of themselves cannot -- or at least, should not -- affect another's "sensitivities." What if I had a family member murdered with a kitchen knife? Does the mere existence of this tool, and the knowledge that someone -- the horror -- owns several of them -- affect my sensitivities?

There's an old Greek saying that "you don't talk about rope in the house of a person who hanged himself." But guns have become iconic symbols, and so go beyond simple tactfulness. By admitting to owning guns, you are making -- rightly or wrongly -- a political statement about yourself. And if, as a gun owner, you don't fit the expected stereotype, then you have to go into a long-winded explanation as to why you don't. Best to avoid all this by being discreet about your guns. This is what we have come to because of polarization.

 

[GEM]

I'd add that the high profile rampages have increased anti firearm attitudes among some. This goes along with the AR political demonstrations. The gun world has not done a good job in promoting why such firearms belong in the hands of the law abiding populace. You might just say it is your right but rights are a social construct (as we can see by the definition of various rights changing over time). Yes, there are theories of natural rights and God Given Rights but the history of slavery, who votes, etc. suggests that social forces define who has rights and how they are instantiated. Thus, the rationale behind gun ownership has to be made repeatedly.

Self-defense does sell. However there is push back on the lethality of ARs and similar guns not being needed for SD. We see it here. The push to call ARs - modern sporting rifles was a pathetic attempt to make them look less dangerous and just 'toys'. It was and is stupid. Try telling a jury that you were carrying a modern sporting rifle - they probably would look at you like you were nuts.

The rationale of defense against tyranny was well stated by liberal Senator Hubert Humphrey:

"The right of citizens to bear arms is just one guarantee against arbitrary government, one more safeguard against the tyranny which now appears remote in America, but which historically has proved to be always possible." -- Senator Hubert H. Humphrey (D-Minnesota)"

However, the defense against tyranny is complex as the threatened tyrannies can vary according to political and cultural world views. The right has one fear of tyranny. The minority increase in gun ownership has quite a different view of possible tyranny. The classic gun organization is the former and ignores the latter due to marketing decisions. For example, the Philando Castile shooting should have been a poster child for gun rights and a cover for the American Rifleman but it wasn't for various reasons, I will read to the dear reader to postulate.

 

[Old Dog]

There's an old Greek saying that "you don't talk about rope in the house of a person who hanged himself." But guns have become iconic symbols, and so go beyond simple tactfulness. By admitting to owning guns, you are making -- rightly or wrongly -- a political statement about yourself. And if, as a gun owner, you don't fit the expected stereotype, then you have to go into a long-winded explanation as to why you don't. Best to avoid all this by being discreet about your guns. This is what we have come to because of polarization.

Can't agree. What's happened with our present state of political correctness and wokeness is that now we are are forced to defend preferences, likes, dislikes, tastes, ideology, religion, gender identity, political leanings and incur ostracization, stereotyping, discrimination, ridicule, and worse from the segments that do not agree with us.

We should NOT be forced to be discreet about our preferences, likes, dislikes, tastes, ideology, religion, gender identity, political leanings -- in a functioning society, we live with each other's differences.

As gun owners, we have been stigmatized to an unbearable degree. We are now labled as white supremacists, rednecks, hicks, uneducated, Trumpists, insurrectionists, potential mass murderers/active shooters, wife-beaters, unintelligent. I don't even care for NASCAR...

 

[GEM]

However, the major gun organizations went all in for Trump. Look at the editorials in the American Rifleman. One of the disposable presidents said her highest priority was to re-elect Trump. Not to protect the RKBA? The guy didn't have much legislative success or even try. Hopefully, the justices will work out.
My state organization hinted at buying into the fake election nonsense and has rather silly pro Trump cartoons.They do good work but it's not the best foot forward.

Wayne had a cover - STOP THE SOCIALIST WAVE.

Now you may or may not have a preferred economic theory but I would prefer - Stop gun banning. Wayne skirted race related dog whistles also, to be blunt.

You get what you pay for. Send him a check.

 

[DustyGmt]

I'd add that the high profile rampages have increased anti firearm attitudes among some. This goes along with the AR political demonstrations. The gun world has not done a good job in promoting why such firearms belong in the hands of the law abiding populace. You might just say it is your right but rights are a social construct (as we can see by the definition of various rights changing over time). Yes, there are theories of natural rights and God Given Rights but the history of slavery, who votes, etc. suggests that social forces define who has rights and how they are instantiated. Thus, the rationale behind gun ownership has to be made repeatedly.

Self-defense does sell. However there is push back on the lethality of ARs and similar guns not being needed for SD. We see it here. The push to call ARs - modern sporting rifles was a pathetic attempt to make them look less dangerous and just 'toys'. It was and is stupid. Try telling a jury that you were carrying a modern sporting rifle - they probably would look at you like you were nuts.

The rationale of defense against tyranny was well stated by liberal Senator Hubert Humphrey:


However, the defense against tyranny is complex as the threatened tyrannies can vary according to political and cultural world views. The right has one fear of tyranny. The minority increase in gun ownership has quite a different view of possible tyranny. The classic gun organization is the former and ignores the latter due to marketing decisions. For example, the Philando Castile shooting should have been a poster child for gun rights and a cover for the American Rifleman but it wasn't for various reasons, I will read to the dear reader to postulate.

And the defense against tyranny argument seems to fall flat because we have a majority of the public, the president, senators and a number of other talking heads saying how ridiculous it is to think you could defend against tyranny with an AR15. "You need jets and nuclear weapons to take us on". Obviously we have forgotten Vietnam and the last 20 years of war in the ME. Guerilla warfare is a potent, enduring force.... people have forgotten.

Nevermind the disgust that a U.S. President would flex his nuclear arsenal against his citizens. Yeah, we don't have to worry about tyranny....

 

[Tirod]

I note in more than one post a certain surprise at discovering schools aren't open minded and might even have instructors who are handling the subject of our Rights negatively.

We discovered this in the 80's - and its why a significant component of our town removed their children from public school, and started homeschooling. All told now there is an Independent Day School, the traditional Catholic schools, and homeschool Academies who meet once a week with parents as instructors.

I "co-taught "a math class conducted by a skilled and degreed Mom who worked a job in her field, it was so good I even learned something. I later paired up with a Fireman tech who was skilled in extraction and we did a course on owner automotives, driving skills, etc. Eye opening for many and since we were both military it worked out very well.

Yes a lot of things have changed culturally, the idea that a public school is a safe place to send your children - at all - is now highly questionable. There are policies being enacted that won't require your permission because its now considered that you imply consent sending your children. It's far more than just pressing those acknowledgement buttons signing up for an app. Too many districts are now requiring instructors to teach certain political subjects as facts and you won't discover it until your child comes home with more than an angsty attitude.

It's not about gun racks in the window of our pickup truck - I mounted mine below the window in my '80. A lot more than that has changed, and there is a movement afoot to get folks to recognize how extensive it is. It is no longer the world I grew up in and certainly not the one I planned to retire in. This needs to change dramatically or we are facing a much more serious problem than how we discuss firearms. It's only one side issue to a larger problem.

 

[GAF]

You would not know there had been a cultural shift with all of the guns that have been sold in the last two years.
Scheel just filled up their hand gun display cabinets with guns ordered over a year ago.

 

[GEM]

And the defense against tyranny argument seems to fall flat because we have a majority of the public, the president, senators and a number of other talking heads saying how ridiculous it is to think you could defend against tyranny with an AR15. "You need jets and nuclear weapons to take us on". Obviously we have forgotten Vietnam and the last 20 years of war in the ME. Guerilla warfare is a potent, enduring force.... people have forgotten.

Nevermind the disgust that a U.S. President would flex his nuclear arsenal against his citizens. Yeah, we don't have to worry about tyranny....

Just say: Afghanistan. However, the can't fight a B-2 with an AR is found in the gun world also. One can also return to the Franco-Prussian war for an example of how an occupying army in our cultural lane had problems with Francs-tireurs .

The use of firearms by Civil Rights activists is well documented as an example of defense against a racist based tyranny in some states but is largely ignored by the standard gun rights organizations in their presentations. I would be putting that in the forefront. I recall on Bill Maher, Robert Reich getting into it with a Black (forget his name) activist on the left. The latter was all in in for gun rights. He said why should he just have a shotgun when the folks who hate him have ARs? Reich was speechless and obviously scared of this guy. One can google Maher and guns to find the clip.

 

[entropy]

These days things are quite different. As CEO I have a bit of say what kind of people are being employed - pro civil liberty or indifferent is fine, openly anti-anything and the applicant has to have the skillset of Stephen Hawking to get hired.

You'd be taken down by someone in your firm with one call to the EEOC (Equal Employment Opportunity Commission) here in the States for even the appearance of doing that.

 

[DustyGmt]

Just say: Afghanistan. However, the can't fight a B-2 with an AR is found in the gun world also. One can also return to the Franco-Prussian war for an example of how an occupying army in our cultural lane had problems with Francs-tireurs .

The use of firearms by Civil Rights activists is well documented as an example of defense against a racist based tyranny in some states but is largely ignored by the standard gun rights organizations in their presentations. I would be putting that in the forefront. I recall on Bill Maher, Robert Reich getting into it with a Black (forget his name) activist on the left. The latter was all in in for gun rights. He said why should he just have a shotgun when the folks who hate him have ARs? Reich was speechless and obviously scared of this guy. One can google Maher and guns to find the clip.

I'll check that out, although Maher is super cringey. I hate the roaring applause pauses that occur ever 3 to 5 seconds on that show. I like to listen to the different arguments but the pause/queue for applause is pretty much intolerable....

 

[TomJ]

I've experienced polar opposites. I was born and raised in the Chicago area, and lived there until the end of last May. While I knew other gun owners, talking about it openly was looked down upon. Doing so meant your kids would be ostracized by other parents and was bad enough that at our church you'd often see gun owners standing in a corner whispering about gun related things. We moved to a rural area of SE Wisconsin where owning guns is considered normal. At the small barber shop I go to gun magazines are on a counter for customers to read while waiting, our church openly embraces the 2A, the people I've met are almost all gun owners and I routinely hear neighbors shooting on their property. What I'm experiencing is not a cultural shift, but the difference between urban vs rural environments.

 

[entropy]

And I was born and raised in St. Paul, MN ('63--'76, when were moved to North St. Paul) and it was just a given that almost every family had at least one gun in the house. Few safes back in the day, also. Had the odd scary moment as a kid. I remember one friend showing me his Dad's pistol (Ruger MkII) by pulling it out of the sock drawer with his finger on the trigger. He handed it to me to look at (pointing it at me in the process) , and fortunately, it was the one type of pistol I'd fired in my life at that point, and knew how to operate. I dropped the mag, opened it and it had a round chambered. After I was done admiring it, I put the mag back in, chambered a round pointing in a safe a direction as I could and, dropped the mag and topped the other round off, and made sure the safety was on. (It had been on when he took it out, but still... ) Dads talked guns and hunting at BBQ's and such. I'm sure several of them were carrying, but they were the 3 cops living on our street besides my Dad. Several of my friends had rifle racks in their rooms, usually with BB guns or .22's in them. Their dads had the ammo elsehwere.

 

[hq]

You'd be taken down by someone in your firm with one call to the EEOC (Equal Employment Opportunity Commission) here in the States for even the appearance of doing that.

I probably would be here in Finland too if I admitted that something like that happens. Officially the recruitment process is based on strictly legal and relevant criteria, all of which are business secrets hence can't be disclosed to applicants or anyone else. It's downright amazing how people with an entitled attitude and even a hint of victim mentality always score the worst in the end, time and time again, without exceptions.

A funny coincidence.

 

[MedWheeler]

AlexanderA writes:

The main reason, I think, that many gun owners are loath to show off their guns is simply security. With crime being the way it is, they don't want their guns to get stolen.

The other reason is that you don't know what the other person's sensitivities are. For all you know, the person, or a member of their family, may have been a victim of gun misuse. So until you know this person better, it might be wise to clam up about owning guns.

A lack of desire to be harassed and vilified plays a huge part in gun owners' keeping a low profile.