Curious Sort with Too Much Time

[GW Staar]

So now we have several progressive presses with more than 5 stations. That means I shouldn't even be interested in trying to feed and seat in one station.....But Jmorris just keeps on bringing that little sore spot up .....and I do still have a Pro 2000 five hole progressive.....and a 3D printer....and some experience with Autocad.....and as stated....too much time. Sooo.....been playing .....

rose colored piece plunges up through the bottom of the main piece stoke actuated to push up on the feeder die to release a bullet. The bullet slides down the ramp into the window of a windowed seater.

The windowed seater is not shown, but could be an RCBS Gold Medal die or some other brand. Which is threaded into the hole on the right side.

This is only preliminary.....now I just have to figure out how the base holding the shell plate of a loader can push that rose colored piece (it was supposed to come out reddish) up into the center and push the feeder release insert up to where the ball bearings release the next bullet. I'm thinking I will need to design vertical adjustment in the final, for various calibers. It's already designed for any of the calibers TylerR designed....probably be easy to make it fit DAA's or Lee's new one.

Looking at the larger picture above you can see the inside rose piece peeking into the center where it can push the bullet release shaft upward.

The idea is to mount that portion of the tool out from press center, where that piece is free to move up and down with the ram. The shell plate interface with, and final design of that piece is of course critical. I'll figure it out......or just have fun trying.


Of course even the 6 pack pro could use one more station....and there is a plate sticking out in about the right spot with holes for bolts, no less, to mount such an interface. Here's a picture of the windowed seater this is designed for.....

 

[FROGO207]

Without the curious sort of individual we would probably still be running around with rocks and spears as weapons. You guys always are searching for a better solution. Not my thing but always interested in seeing what you guys come up with. Keep it up.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Two ideas come to mind: a solenoid activated by the plate motions or a switch/lever actuated by the operator. A manual lever might have certain advantages in terms of timing.

 

[lordpaxman]

“Feed and seat in one operation”. Just blueskying, but I’d think the feed would be on the up or off stroke and the seat on the down stroke. At least for the presses I have, like the LNL, there’s a push of the handle to seat the primer - same step releases a bullet and aligns/feeds the seater die. Then the downstroke, or power stroke will seat.
Very cool, but, for me I really want to see there’s powder in the case before seating. Somewhere after powder drop and before bullet seat, I need to visually inspect, or if there’s only one station for this you can trust a lock out or dillon powder check.

 

[jmorris]

You’re going to beat me to the finish.

I bought the FA universal seating die to do the same thing.



Figured I would kick the bullet out of a tube and into the die similar to the way I did the deprime machine. So bullet feed would be at the opposite end of the stroke as where work is done, one per cycle of the machine.



A Lee style chain would probably be easiest, maybe a Dillon “fail safe” type rod. Would be nice if it were somewhat press independent though as far as usefulness to others.

I haven’t even been able to test the die itself to see if it’s worth the work yet. Too many irons in the fire I guess.

Looking forward to your progress.

 

[Akula69]

Interesting. However, the first thing that struck me looking at the CAD drawing is: What keeps the projectile from striking the ramp and then flipping tip down? Generally, you would think the base being heavier it would tend to go first, but after a period of operation, any deposits (dirt or otherwise) could hold it up just long enough to tip.
Perhaps a few degrees of angle on the feeder die threaded socket so the base enters the ramp with less velocity? Or, lower the arch (on the ramp side) so if it does try to tip it corrects the presentation?

 

[jmorris]

However, the first thing that struck me looking at the CAD drawing is: What keeps the projectile from striking the ramp and then flipping tip down?

No having the room to swap ends was my thought, at least for the window die I have.

Note that the bullet must be shoved in base first, the seating stem is low enough the bullet can’t go into the window vertical, must enter base first. So if the tip hits the seating stem, it’s going to stay against it until the base is pushed into the window. You can see the tip of a bullet I already dropped into the die too.



You would just need the column of bullets close enough to the window, that the bullet can’t swap ends or a feed device that would serve the same purpose. I figured I would keep the platform flat though.

 

[jmorris]

Played a little after I got home today. No actuator but this gets them from the tube into the die and they can’t tip no matter the speed.

 

[jmorris]

Oh and RCBS did it this way.

https://www.rcbs.com/on/demandware....df/Bullet_Feeder-Rifle_Instructions_04_11.pdf

 

[GW Staar]

Was out of town Tuesday and traveled most of today, Wednesday, to get home.... so responding to the replies are a little late. But here's that, plus a minor update.

First of all, I don't expect all the answers in a couple of days, and I'm not expecting a miracle. These things take time. In fact, your idea that I'm a head of you, on this, Jmorris, is a little premature.......maybe in the next life! I'm not in the same class, not even close.

When I got home this evening I printed that part....took 2 hours and 40 minutes.....and I don't have the threads right.....too tight. That's one of the typical gotchas with 3d printing....trial and error is not the exception...more the rule. TylerR told me it took him several tries to get the male thread on his feed dies perfect. My female thread on this part needs to be a little looser. So another print at least to perfect that....but I still made use of the print to test bullet fall. The ramp is perfect for rifle bullets....zero end to end turning tendency. 9mm pistol is less stable in a fall.....but not giving up.

Jmorris's idea is a good one, and RCBS's method does work for rifle, but my goal is a little different.....TylerR has all these bullet feed dies that work great for many rifle AND pistol calibers. I may be dreaming, but I'm attempting that "feeder-die-to-seater" connecting part to be more universal.....to handle many calibers of both rifle and pistol, so I'm not through trying to do both types. That remains the goal (so far), but the current print I'm testing will have to be adjusted, since the half moon "pusher" will only work for his dies where the caliber inserts protrude out the bottom....the rifle versions do not.....so having to think outside the original idea.

“Feed and seat in one operation”. Just blueskying, but I’d think the feed would be on the up or off stroke and the seat on the down stroke. At least for the presses I have, like the LNL, there’s a push of the handle to seat the primer - same step releases a bullet and aligns/feeds the seater die. Then the downstroke, or power stroke will seat.
Very cool, but, for me I really want to see there’s powder in the case before seating. Somewhere after powder drop and before bullet seat, I need to visually inspect, or if there’s only one station for this you can trust a lock out or dillon powder check.

I understand what lordpaxman is saying, but I'm thinking there's room in the length of the stroke that raises a case into the seater, to push on the feeder die and cause the bullet to drop into the seater first, before the case touches it. May be wrong, but that's the goal......designing an interface to do that requires a printed part to test with......but one that I can successfully screw in the dies.....which the first one failed at. Hopefully try #2 tomorrow will do better. Or I could just buy a tap (expensive for that size) to ream out what I have. But, I need to get the threads right anyway, so future prints by anybody can work.

 

[sparkyv]

I regret that I didn't learn CAD.
Perhaps someday...3D printing is so cool!

 

[jmorris]

When I got home this evening I printed that part....too 2 hours and 40 minutes.....and I don't have the threads right.....too tight. That's one of the typical gotchas with 3d printing....trial and error is not the exception...more the rule. TylerR told me it took him several tries to get the male thread on his feed dies perfect. My female thread on this part needs to be a little looser.

I must admit to using taps and dies myself as it’s not very instant to see if a scale prints the threads just right. One can tell by printing/testing but it’s faster to for me as 3D printing is a lot newer to me than the methods I have used for years. I do like the fact that I don’t have to babysit them though.

I understand what lordpaxman is saying, but I'm thinking there's room in the length of the stroke that raises a case into the seater, to push on the feeder die and cause the bullet to drop into the seater first, before the case touches it.

I agree, there may not be enough room to make an easy mechanical linkage but there are other ways to do it. Sounds not unlike my need for mold tappers for a “sticky” mold on my casting machine. I needed to bullets to cool a bit before I started hammering on the mold carrier arms over the catch bin. I used a pneumatic limit switch and just put bumps to activate it where I needed them.

 

[GW Staar]

I regret that I didn't learn CAD.[/URL]
Perhaps someday...3D printing is so cool!

Yes it is cool...and fun to play with too. I spent most of my life designing homes and buildings on Autocad, starting with version 2. That was a long time ago. BUT! Since meeting up with TylerR who uses a free cad program, DesignSpark Mechanical, which is like learning Japanese compared to what I already know, put me into the novice category again. But necessary to share back and forth. You see, that software, DSM, is what ALL the 3d printing in TylerR's gigantic collator thread is made with.....and it isn't at all compatible with Autocad, code wise or command wise......I say Japanese, because it thinks totally different. Autocad has noun-verb commands.....DSM....rarely.

But it is still very powerful and free to download, and if this old man can learn it......so can you. So if you regret not learning CAD, then download and try it. There are good videos on the web, too. Here's a link.....sign up free and download if you want to learn cad. https://www.rs-online.com/designspark/mechanical-software

One of many videos are out there to help. This one by a Brit older than me! Teaching how to make threads.

 

[d31tc]

I'll have to keep watching this thread.

With a PC 5, this idea would be nice to have, not to mention I'm guessing everyone else with 5 stations or less.

 

[GW Staar]

Getting close to real testing time.....I have the thread cutting bugs handled, finally, and the tipping short bullets too.


I added a shape inside the half moon to hand the feed dies with inside risers like .223 and .308 and added another pusher (the right one) for the shorter bullets like 9mm. That one still has the inside shape but it is angled downward to kick such bullets base forward. (once past the angle it's on the ramp base forward) Printing now....when finished, testing time. Goal is one feed-to-seater die holder good for most any caliber, with just two inserts needed them.......maybe......will soon see if I'm dreaming.....

Another view:
(I decided to strengthen the die holder.)

 

[GW Staar]

Amost there, but no gold star. I need just a little more clearance in the threads....and more clearance in the half moon hole. Not only that, I only raised the center stem enough to touch the inside pusher in the feed die.....doh. Needs to be higher so it can push the dumb thing....don't know what I was thinking....jmorris would never make that kind of mistake....just amateurs like me. Maybe tomorrow......

At least this print shows me it works.....one step closer....OK....baby step.

 

[GW Staar]

Just a preliminary picture and video for a glimpse of the direction I'm going. Still working on how to push the feed die with the ram subplate. There's a platform on the left with holes to fasten to....may need more than plastic for a push platform though.....unless I could use a piece of UHD plastic I have....any ideas, jmorris?

Even manually lifting the shaft to release a collator downtube full of bullets, one at a time is faster than hand feeds, but I'm trying to shoot a little higher.


In the video, I manually lifted the feeder insert, if you look carefully you'll see the bullet drop....then I back away so you can see the seater in action. Will work as soon as I can make the pusher inside the feeder actuate as the ram starts up. Making that is next. (all prototypes of course, so far) Probably will change the big red part to black though.


Thread for the green feeder is too loose now.....one more tweak. But closer.

 

[lordpaxman]

Way cool. 3d printer or x10 laser… all these cool tools.
Seems to me you need something much like the case feeder/pusher that’s on the other side. That seems to do just what you want.

 

[jmorris]

You need to move the top part of the green dropper up to release the bullet?

 

[GW Staar]

You need to move the top part of the green dropper up to release the bullet?

Yes. In the picture, I just finger-pulled upward the top insert held by the springs to the bottom outer, until the ball bearings reached the groove inside it which released the bullet. Not unlike DAA's. But there's an access hole underneath the feeder die side (outside the press) for to insert a pusher part from the bottom to do the same thing from the inside of the insert. Was hoping to cantilever off the sub plate. That may not work.....we will see. Now that I've got a model, its looking less positive.

The purpose here was to see if there is a way to feed and seat, show you brighter younger minds the concept and inspire. I'm expecting success, by someone if not by by me.

 

[jmorris]

If you let a bullet go when the platform is all the way up (bullet in die being fully seated) and drop one, will it go into the die when you lower the carrier or does the window need to be open and it use its momentum to get in there?

 

[GW Staar]

Good thought. Don't know....that will be easy to test for. I'll check it out today. Reminds me of your statement at the bottom of all your posts about learning something every day. The older I get the harder I have to try.......is absolutely true. But then I think of the following...."do it or don't...there is no try" (Star Wars) I like that too.

 

[GW Staar]

I tested a dozen bullets (old Sierra Game Kings 62 gr) at lunch break, and they fed....stopped at the closed window....dropped the window....bullets fell in each time. Whether that duplicates with 55's I don't know....will try some tonight.

Whether such would happen with .45 lead Boolits.....I have my doubts. Also about to give up on the idea of one die coupler for all anyway. That's a pretty big spread. Maybe more reasonable expectation is two. Heck, I'm not even sure there is such a thing as windowed seaters for pistol bullets, anyway. Maybe I shoulda looked first?