Custom DI AR, Scar/ACR, Custom piston AR?

Custom DI AR, Scar ACR, Custom Piston AR

  • Custom DI AR such as Noveske or BCM

    Votes: 42 50.6%
  • New platform such as a Scar or ACR

    Votes: 27 32.5%
  • Custom Piston AR such as LMT or LWRC

    Votes: 14 16.9%

  • Total voters
    83
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Prion

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Which would you, or did, take home.

1. A traditional DI custom AR, such as a Noveske.

2. One of the newer platforms like the Scar or ACR

3. Custom piston AR like LMT or LWRC
 
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Rails

I have DI AR's and have considered piston conversions but personally I think for a piston gun the carrier should travel on rails so i'd say SCAR of ACR. However, i am curious as to wether or not a long strok piston, like a PWS, would work better without rails than a short stroke in an ar platform.
 
This has been discussed many times, and egos tend to get bruised.

FWIW, my vote is good DI like a BCM. No need for extra parts that are proprietary, i.e. more expensive, or a new platform that again will have more expensive spare parts.

Now, if you want a SCAR or ACR for their own reasons, go for it. Personally, I didn't like the feel of either one, and neither can do something different than my AR; at least until you can change barrels on the ACR.
 
Depends on your goals. For this particular rifle I wanted an extremely well machined, extremely accurate, 18" barreled AR, and building it the way I wanted would have cost about as much as the complete package, so I bought a LaRue Tactical OBR. The fact that the manufacturer is a local Texas company with an outstanding warranty and service department sealed the deal. For my bang around type use I have other less expensive ARs.

LaRueOBRwFlag800600.jpg

LaRueOBR800600.jpg
 
To give you an idea I have 4 ARs comlete right now.
One is a Factory Noveske.
One has a Noveske Barrel and BCM bolt
One is an All Daniel Defense gun.
And the last is a SBR built with a BCM Barrel and Bolt.

Going by that I am sure you know where my vote would go.

I find both the ACR and the SCAR tempting prospects. But the price on both is still artificially inflated. In addition they really serve no purpose beyond what my ARs already do.
 
I voted for the Noveske sort of AR, but SCAR would be a narrow second choice.

I can't think of any situation where I'd think a piston AR was worth my money.
 
Since we Marines were issued the AR's in 1967 in Vietnam (3rdMarDiv). I have had a visceral dislike for them. To many friends killed and wounded because of the POS.

My own personal combat experience, not something read in a book or on the internet.

I chose the SCAR and I really like it.

Go figure.

Fred
 
Bushmaster ACR is 500.00 cheaper then the SCAR. only downside is Bushmaster ME plant is closing in march 31st so i dont know abt geting one repaired if needed.

i prefer the DI platform, more parts readily (wont have to ship back unless serious problem) i do most of the parts replacement myself with DI platform-gas rings,extrator,springs, etc.
 
For what it's worth, I went DI and will again.

I was just curious what others were thinking. Particularly if any of the new breed were making serious inroads.

I'm not basing any buying decisions on this poll.
 
The SCAR is a legitimate option if you are willing to put in the $$$. We are seeing more and more parts and accessories come available from companies like Troy, Magpul, etc. It looks to be a design that will stick around. Will it replace the AR in the American gun guy's arsenal? Doubt it, but I don't see it disappearing in a few years either.

The ACR is nice as well, but having handled one I can't help but be turned off by the weight. It's about a pound too heavy, much of that coming from the 1:9 HBAR-type barrel up front IMHO. If they installed the barrel from the military Remington ACR it would be a winner.

I have a DI AR for the following reasons:
-Price
-Huge component, accessory availability
-Easy to customize to meet my needs
-Easy to learn and operate
-Massive body of knowledge accumulated over the years as to best practices running and spec'ing the run

A piston AR sounds nice as an idea but is imperfect in its application. For starters, the weapon gains some weight and loses some accuracy. Second, the AR was never designed to be a piston-driven gun and without careful re-design of the bolt can have its own wear and tear issues that a DI gun will not, namely a problem with the carrier tilting as it is operated by the piston. Primary Weapons Systems (PWS) has a long-stroke system that many experienced users seem to regard as superior to the short-stroke systems you will see on most piston ARs because it eliminates the bolt carrier tilt problem that has caused some issues on piston guns. ADCO's BEAR system also looks promising. Third, all piston designs are slightly different - parts are NOT necessarily interchangeable. You cannot just go into Brownells or whatever and order a replacement bolt with a piston gun.

The best solution IMHO? A good DI AR first, then add a second platform like SCAR that offers some distinct advantages over the AR.
 
If money was no object I'd have a SCAR. I'm not sold on the piston ARs either, the AR system wasn't designed with that in mind. I went DI with a LMT/BCM mutt and am happy with it. If I had more cash to spend I would have probably gone Noveske.
 
The ACR still has way to many problems to be a contender with the SCAR.
Terrible barrel
Overweight
questionable cost cutting measures that didn't translate to a cheaper product.
 
You realize sir that the M4 of today has almost nothing in common with the early M16 of Vietnam?

Except it still has a weak bolt and feeble extractor (better than it used to be, but still weak extraction), heat exacerbates both issues because of the D/I system. And compared to virtually all other service rifles a relatively short useful life expectancy before depot maintenance is required.

The cartridge is another problem. Not THE problem, but a problem.

As I have already poked the hornets nest:

I don't think piston AR's are any type of answer. Putting lipstick on the pig doesn't solve the weak bolt, heat, and extractor problem. And putting a piston in it is trying to make it something it's not and can never be. The piston only fixes the heat problem, and does in fact add weight.

Number one requirement of any new rifle must be a stronger bolt and robust extractor.

As to increased weight, we can get rid of all that crap behind the action. No more shock absorber & tube. The difference pretty much balances out in the end as far as weight goes vs the Piston components.

I do not have an ACR and at this time haven't figured out why I would want one. They might get the bugs out, we will see.

I am going to get the SCAR-H MK17 in 7.62 NATO in about a year. I hear and read very good things from the sandbox, so far.

Go figure.

Fred
 
Having fired the SCAR, I'm impressed. Like Fred, IMHO the SCAR-17 is the berries for a 7.62 rifle. Only drawback is magazine prices and that may be fixed soon. Reportedly, one of the metal magazine companies will be producing a relatively inexpensive magazine soon.
 
Since we Marines were issued the AR's in 1967 in Vietnam (3rdMarDiv). I have had a visceral dislike for them. To many friends killed and wounded because of the POS.

My own personal combat experience, not something read in a book or on the internet.

I chose the SCAR and I really like it.

Go figure.

Fred
With respect, Kwelz is right. For that matter, the A1 was a great improvement on the basic M16. Keep in mind that the biggest problem with the M16 was MacNamara's office micro-managing the system, and changing the powders. I won't argue that there were not a number of problems, and it did in fact lead to a number of serviceman being killed or wounded.

But those issues were addressed. You claim that the AR has a weak bolt. While it doesn't have the life expectancy of the M1/M14, it is still a very robust and reliable design, and quite simple to replace. As far as extractors go, my time in the Corps as not only a rifleman but as a battalion rifle coach, I never once saw a single problem with an extractor. Magazines, yes; extractors, no.

It is very easy to clean and maintain. In fact, provided that basic cleaning and maintenance is done, the system is very reliable in most environments.

The AR has served our servicemen and women well for the last 50 years, and I foresee it doing so for at least the rest of my career, if not longer.
 
No one is trying to change the history of the first AR's issued in the 1960's. There were problems with 1) dropping the 35 year old requirement for a chromed barrel, 2) the 30 round mag, which still has to deal with flimsy construction, weak feed lips, and sticking followers in a curved design used in a straight mag well, 3) early issue powder that was repurposed excess.

And there was the production ramp up which got an outside contractors tight chambers literally replaced in the field, sometimes within eyesight of combat.

Today, very little of those problems exist, anymore than a 66 Mustang is the same as a 2010 Mustang. The detailed improvements are well known and frankly, beyond reproach. Bluntly, questioning the bolt and extractor is out of the loop - they've been addressed, what is a problem is overgassed 16" carbines opening too early, a commonly acknowledged problem in some guns. It's the entire reason midlength gas exists, carbine is for 14.5" military barrels, midlength is for civilian legal 16".

Heat is not a problem. I say again, heat is not a problem. Simple heat temperature studies are on a lot of forums. Using a infra red detector, temperatures have been recorded, with a baseline issue type M4, piston gun, and others. What is recorded is the bolt carrier temps are about 40* warmer than piston. You can shoot full mags, shotgun the bolt carrier and hold it with bare hands. You CANNOT do that with a piston gun - apples to apples, grab the gas piston chamber on the barrel after a full mag and see which is hotter. Actually, don't, it exceeds 500*.

DI AR's don't have substantially higher temps, if anything, the Stoner gas piston runs dramatically cooler in the bolt carrier than out on a barrel. Bolt temps are nearly the same, as they get warm because the brass cartridge head is the only contact. Chamber temps are nearly the same, and so are barrels. No reason for them to be different.

The major problems with combat firearms are magazines, bad ammo, and environmental contamination - almost never gas residue, as AR's are commonly accused. In one test, Mike Pannone ran with with no lube through more than ten basic loads of ammo, 2.400+ rounds, before gas residue became a problem, and lubrication immediately solved it for another few magazines. Soldiers in daily combat, even training, will perform daily maintenance at a minimum, especially once before going out of the wire, and don't let a weeks worth of hot combat disable a weapon because of their negligence. As an aside, the weapon will malfunction from excess barrel heat in full auto fire long before residue is any problem at all. Hence, the M4's no longer have M203 barrel cuts. That causes problems, not BCG temps.

The majority of complaints about the AR are either not understood or are complete falsehoods unfounded in any serious examination of fact. I understand it doesn't change the results experienced 45 years ago, but that perspective also allows looking at previous designs like the Garand, which also killed young men because of it's initial design flaws. What's different is that we now live in an information age, and a lot of it has to be sifted. Anecdotal stories of "guns than kill" are rarely sorted out for a real cause, we just blame the weapon. Never the operator - out of a societal sense of being nice, which is sometimes not deserved or accurate. We don't like to accept humans make mistakes, and testosterone influenced humans even more so.

DI runs just fine, if someone want's to disable the working piston in the BCG and add another on the barrel, it's their money, don't create false reasons for it.
 
I currently have a DI AR15 which I'm very satisfied with, but if I hadn't spent so much on building the AR I would definitely have picked up a SCAR-16s. The ACR is too heavy (not to mention stupidly expensive, at least the "enhanced" model everyone wants is, anyway) and I like the ergonomic design of the SCAR better than the AR15 and ACR.
Keep in mind I haven't shot the SCAR or ACR, this is just my impression from some research and examining them briefly at local shops.
 
I voted for the DI Ar15. Perfectly reliable for all practical purposes. Nothings really going to beat a BCM 14.5" Middy with a 12" Larue rail system, ambi safety, BAD lever, and a decent adjustable stock.

SCAR, Sig 556, Robinson, or ACR: Really don't do anything better than a good AR15. If you like the idea of an AK47 style piston and internal rails then these may be for you.

problems:
-heavier than an AR
-more expensive
-safety levers aren't as friendly
-foregrips and rails are too short on all the models I've seen in person. More and more people are shooting with a 3-gun/Magpul grip stance. I know the ACR has longer rails out there somewhere.......
-lack of parts support for the Scar
-ACR deosn't come in the with the same features as the Masada or Rem ACR, or at least I haven't seen one.
-no buffer tube makes them great for folding stocks or pistol builds
-some have a lame reciprocating charging handle

Piston AR's:
-more expensive
-heavier swing weight, slower to manuever
-carrier tilt
-solution to a nonexistant problem
-IME less reliable than a DI Colt, LMT, or BCM.

DI AR15's
-often lack proper ambi safeties
-BAD lever rules but is kinda weird
-usually have to build them yourself to get them "just right", or end up with a box of obsolete old school parts you'll never use again
-plenty of poor imposters. Cheap AR's give good AR's a bad name. Most of the "unreliable BS" comes from El Cheapo Ar's.
-plenty of well know recipes for creating a good 100% reliable Ar that suits your needs.
 
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Zero you are spot on with the SCAR rail length. ACR is actually really good in this regards.

Also either VLTOR or Tango Down has come out with a Rail extension for the SCAR. It is a thing of beauty.
 
If I were buying a new rifle today, I'd probably go with another DI AR. I'm familiar with the system and I know how to make it run. It works well for me and I like the ergos.

I like the SCAR as well. It is a nice rifle and much of the design is very well thought out. I'm not a fan of the reciprocating charging handfle (a military requirement) and its location. I also agree that the handguard is shorter than I'd like to use. As much as I like the SCAR; at the current price, I think I would get a better value out of a DI AR and training/ammo.

The ACR just doesn't do it for me. I really, really wanted to see that one succeed and still hope it will; but the versions I've seen so far are too heavy, have bad balance, and want top tier prices for a piece of equipment that is still in beta. I do love the ergonomics on it though, very well thought out.

So far, I just haven't seen a piston AR that impresses me enough to want one.
 
I keep going back to LWRC. For me they have been super accurate, problem free, I get to use my AR lowers, parts are familiar, etc. The 16-S is a lot more money for little if any benefit in my opinion. However, the 17-S looks like a nice option, I just wish FN would release a 20" version.
 
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