Custom DI AR, Scar/ACR, Custom piston AR?

[MCMXI]

I've said this a hundred times and I'll say it again ... the whole focus of POF has been to design a reliable and accurate AR that will run WITHOUT LUBRICATION!! Reducing heat in the BCG is just a part of that strategy. Picatinny Arsenal has a number of projects running with this very same primary objective ... how do I know, because I worked on one such project in which they were testing lubricious coatings for M249 parts. I still have many of those parts, coated and uncoated. Oil and fine sand/dust don't play well together, just ask anyone that served or is serving in Iraq/Afghanistan. Do I need a POF AR that can run without any lubrication for tens of thousands of rounds .... hell no, but this is America after all.

For anyone living, working and shooting in the USA .... of course a properly functioning DI AR is sufficient. But for those of you who when talking about GP ARs like to use the adage "it's a solution to a non-existent problem", try thinking outside of the sandbox, others are and for good reason.

I voted DI AR because I'm not in Iraq or Afghanistan.

 

[chieftain]

I do agree,

if you don't need a full auto capable Carbine for combat, a high quality semi auto DI AR system will work just fine. It is one reason I believe that all those AR's that were not full Auto, worked fairly well for so long for all these years.

It is in the HIGH INTENSITY of SUSTAINED close combat that the AR system has most often manifested it's weaknesses. In Vietnam, Iraq, and now Afghanistan.

The good news is that LEO, Civilians, and the vast majority of military personnel have never and will never see such HIGH INTENSITY action even in a combat zone.

The AR system is the only issued weapon that I am aware of, that some operators often took an additional fully assembled bolt (not carrier) with them into the field as SOP.

For most hobbyists, home defense, and weekend training school wannabees, A high quality/Built DI AR system is just fine. That includes me now since I quit marching to the guns, but because of my personal combat experiences, I choose the SCAR family of weapons.

Frankly for the same reason I never drove a Yugo nor today would I drive a "Smart Car".

YMMV.

I am done.

Fred

 

[kwelz]

That would be true. Except it is not. What you are saying had no basis in modern reality. The only problems M4s have had was when idiots tried to use them like a LMG. No carbine holds up to that. Seen the torture tests?

If you dont like the AR/M4 that is fine. But you are basing that dislike on fallacy.

 

[Zerodefect]

I won't even touch a POF piston AR anymore. That rifle was supposed to be the holy grail of reliability. Ha, man was I disapponted.


And as for DI.....google "filthy 14"
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=138&t=196990

Pat Rodgers has been beating on that range loaner with the most minimal repairs/lube possible and recording it.

All my Colts/BCM/Noveske's have been 100% for thousands of rounds. I've yet to hear a credible source with credible skills and a quality rifle complain about reliability of DI AR's. Sure a Scar or AK could most likely handle mre dirt. But I've never seen a senerio where I can actually acumulate that much. I've put my Noveske and Colt through more sand an mud than most, our competitions get weird like that.

 

[MCMXI]

I've yet to hear a credible source with credible skills and a quality rifle complain about reliability of DI AR's.

I have the same feeling about GP ARs, in particular POF. I don't listen to the "experts" anymore. The "experts" tell me that my POFs, Kimber or newer SIGs won't run reliably and yet all six have either surpassed or are rapidly approaching 1,500 rounds each with zero issues. That's now my criterion for any firearm I own before I'm confident that it's 100% reliable. I got this notion from a link posted by one of the few genuine experts on this forum, and that's 9mmepiphany.

 

[Birddog1911]

1858, I do have a question for you. Now, I fully understand your statement above; one has to be careful with what you hear these days. That said, do you recognize that some GP ARs, though none that you noted, have well documented issues with carrier tilt and receiver wear because of it?

I simply ask because of my own experiences. I doubt that I'll ever own a GP AR; but I know for certain that if I do, it will be a rifle that is designed around the piston, not vice versa. Personally, I despise every single manufactuerer of after market kits; from what I've seen with my own eyes they are junk.

That said, if these damned manufacturers could come up with a standard, I think that it would help all of them in the long run. The fact that every manufacturer has proprietory (SP) parts makes a lot of people hesitant.

 

[unwise11]

I'd like an 8" LWRC piston rifle with an aimpoint and I'd put a good can on it.

 

[MCMXI]

do you recognize that some GP ARs, though none that you noted, have well documented issues with carrier tilt and receiver wear because of it?

I'm not sure about "well documented", but also, my experience is limited to owning, working on, upgrading and shooting a pair of POFs ... that's all. I don't talk about other GP models that I know nothing about and have no experience with. As for carrier tilt, it hasn't been an issue for me or my POFs, and I haven't seen any unusual receiver wear.

if these damned manufacturers could come up with a standard, I think that it would help all of them in the long run. The fact that every manufacturer has proprietory (SP) parts makes a lot of people hesitant.

I don't see that happening. I could buy a spare piston and op rod for both of my POFs but I'm in no rush for two reasons. First, I don't see them failing, and second, I don't see POF going anywhere anytime soon. POF has been refining their product as needed. They've continued to make minor improvements over the past couple of years. In general, I don't think that gas piston ARs are going away either. If anything, they're being refined and more models are becoming available. However, GP conversion kits may be in danger of extinction.

 

[taliv]

last month, nobody thought Sabre Defense was going anywhere either

(though i can't talk, as i my kac sr15 is loaded with proprietary parts and my spare parts bin is full of mil-spec parts)

 

[Tirod]

Does the M4, or even the M16 have some issue with sustained full auto use in high intensity conflict, yes. Is that what it was designed to do?

It's the first and ONLY full auto/burst fire weapon in our inventory given to every troop. We never did it before, and we've been doing it for 45 years, now. It really broadens the operator experience - and in low intensity conflict, soft targets are preferred, bringing more combat directly to support units. That increases the rate of issues, because soldiers who's MOS isn't carrying an M4 with the possibility of conflict tend to ignore daily cleaning and maintenance. It's not part of the unit culture. In combat arms, it IS the culture.

Lots of anecdotal stories about weapon failure go into the gritty details leading up to the malfunction, right? Really? Not so much, it's usually a narrative of what the unit was doing, no mention of prechecks, weapons maintenance, and live fire testing before going out of the wire. Once conflict occurs, we hear of an ambush, quick reaction, sustained mag dumps, overheating, and stoppages. Never aimed fire, manuever, and use of other weapons, like hand grenades, launchers, etc.

Is the M4/M16 even supposed to go through 5-7 mags full auto or as rapidly as it can, using tin foil magazines the soldier's father could have trained with? It's a known problem, the Army issued an NSN for Pmags, issued new weapons with new mags, the Marines bought tens of thousands. Is the gun to blame for user abuse and defective mags? That's two of the top three reasons the M4 has stoppages, not heat, the bolt, or other stuff.

It's always a focus on "I don't like!" and rarely an understanding of "Why did that happen?" If we followed the first pattern, some people would never buy air cooled rear engine cars, simply because it upsets their sense of mechanics. Too bad, the VW was a great car, millions and millions sold worldwide.

Keep chugging in that water cooled front engine conventional car, it'll do the job, too. But bringing unfounded myth and dislike to the modern user is a tough row to hoe. Millions of prior service, like me, know different.

 

[MCMXI]

last month, nobody thought Sabre Defense was going anywhere either

Perhaps this article from The Wall Street Journal should be required reading for all THR members!!

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704171004576148863990747674.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Article replaced with link to article.

SYNOPSIS: Sabre Defense didn't file for bankruptcy due to lack of sales or problems with their product. They filed for bankrupty to halt pending lawsuits against them stemming from the fact that U.S. prosecutors filed a sealed 21-count criminal indictment against Sabre and the managers on Jan. 13, 2011. The government accuses the officials [of SD] of conspiring over a six-year period to import and export arms, arms components and related technology without the required federal approval.

 

[kwelz]

Please edit that to just a synopsis and include a link.

 

[mpow66m]

 

[HavelockLEO]

I have one of each, a DI Larue Stealth gun and a "custom" gun I built up and carry as my patrol rifle in my daily duties. Its a Stag/Rock River/Adams Arms mid-length gun I'd stake my life on.
The BC on rails to me is kind of moot, the Adams arms BC has been souped up to rectifiy the BC tilt issue (Adams Arms piston systems are what makes the S&W M&P piston guns work by the way, all the Adams Arms parts are made by S&W)Since I changed out the DI gas system on my rifle, I've had ZERO reliability issues and it gets shot ALOT.
I didnt even participate in the poll for the simple reason that this is hot button issue, I think if your pockets are deep enough get what you want, just do your homework before you jump in, since every one of the rifles listed in the poll is a sight more expensive than an AR.
Again just my .02
This is the high end Larue/Rock River gun

Heres my daily carry custome to my needs piston gun