Cylinder Base Pin Maintenance

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sjohns

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I just picked up an Uberti 1860 model. The guy said the base pin was a "little" loose. It turns out to be a rattle gun.

I do have a couple of cylinder base pin retaining pins which are the same as the barrel pins from VTI.

It "looks like" the pin goes in from hammer side to stabilize the base pin.
I was thinking about:

A. tapping the current pin with a punch to see if that tightens it
or
B. taking the old retaining pin out and unscrewing the base pin and cleaning it up etc

I just want to make sure that I do it right. I am thinking that I need to extract the old retaining pin from the rear, with probably a really small diameter easy out. Then re[lacing it with a new one peening it in and crocussing any rough stuff left over.

Do I pretty much have that down?
Does anyone have a link that can lead me to a schematic with some instructions?
I can do this right without buggering up the gun. I just need to see it or be told once to get it right.

Can anyone help me out here with a wee bit of guidance?
 
If you take off the cylinder, can you turn the arbor at all, either direction?

Take a small piece of stock, 1/8 X 1/2 X 4 or so, slip it into the wedge slot, try to turn it. If it wiggles back and forth, turn it all the way to the righ, clockwise, lok at the slot the hammer falls into, find the pin, and tap it in tighter, with a drift about the same size, an 1/8 inch or so. Try to wiggle it again, if it does not move, you might take the same drift and upset the metal alongside the pin to hold it in place.

If that does not fix it, he might be speaking of something altogether different. He might have meant the wedge does not draw up all the way.

Which is your problem?

Cheers,

George
 
Hi George,
Th arbor and wedge fit seem fine.
The cylinder base pin has side to side/up and down play. As far as radial play, it is snug on its threads that way, there isn't any play when trying to turn it either in or out. The wedge slot stays horizontal with no play.
With the wedge in, the cylinder is pulled tight like it should be, and so the play is with barrel and cylinder together. So it seems to be just a matter of getting the base pin tight.
Scott
 
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I drilled out the old retaining pain, screwed out the base pin, cleaned everything up (that dude killed this gun), screwed the base pin back in and slipped in a brand new retaining pin. Still sloppy. Tapped it in a little but not enough to get it stuck... and the same result.

Any chance on using a shim where the base pin mates up with the recoil shield? Maybe a piece of aluminum can?

In order for it to screw tight, the arbor ends up slightly out of cant with level. So once the wedge is in place, it'll be wiggly again.

In all reality, I think it would still be awhile until everything flew off while shooting, but it is obvious that if the cylinder and barrel will wiggle, the matching up with the v cut in the hammer rear sight will be a cluster you know what at best. might as well use shotshells with it.

Anyone have any suggestions? where could I find the right size base pin with slightly oversized threads? I could tap that and do that.
 
I read last night in Pistolsmithing by George C. Nonte Jr, on page 273/74 that silver solder can be flowed on the base pin threads, then everything gets screwed back in, the key pin inserted and staked and then heat is applied. The further claim is that this creates a permanent repair.

But I was wondering if possibly the cylinder and barrel should be attached to the frame to ensure alignment when this heat is added. Otherwise, it is possible that the pin would be slightly canted enough that the solder would be disturbed when replacing everything or that the arbor would out of level so that the wedge would cause twisting.

What do ya think?
Has anyone heard of this working and lasting?
I suppose I have a well used 44 cylinder to put in there for the heat treatment so I won't ruin the one that goes with the gun. Hmm, maybe I could just attach the barrel to keep everything straight.
 
I've done several modifications/repairs which required welding or other heat that couldn't extend to adjacent areas for various reasons. I usually make a cradle for the piece from scrap wood and then immerse the whole thing in water leaving only the portion to be heated above the surface. I see no reason the frame (minus internal parts and springs) with cylinder and barrel attached couldn't be oriented muzzle down in a bucket of water with only the back of the frame protruding for heating. You could achieve enough heat to make the solder flow long before the submerged parts would get hot.

It sounds like the solder method might be worth a try. If it doesn't work, you can always heat it back up and undo it.

Steve
 
Thanks Steve,
That's a good one. I'll strip out the frame and just attach what I need. All the inner parts needed a little crocus cloth use on them as the guy seldom cleaned it right and the parts were getting surface pits.
I boiled everything in Dawn dish liquid last night and a couple of the internals rusted up immediately.

But I think I can restore this abused gun and have a pleasant shooter afterward. It'll be a few days before I get some silver solder and actually do it. I'll try to remember to take some pictures along the way.
Thanks,
Scott
 
Steve!

I went and saw a local jeweler today. He was telling me that there are two types of silver solder paste. They're both expensive so I'll need to wait a few days.

But he was telling me that the silver solder needs a temp of 1000 degrees to be done right and that's for the low temp stuff.

So sticking everything else down into a bucket of water while that's being done seems appropriate.

I don't know if I would actually seek that approximate temp. Wouldn't that sort of kill off the recoil shield?

That should be red or approaching red and/or at least be a significant color change. Do you think I should douse it with oil in the cooling off process? That should help with hardening. But I don't want to interfere with the silver solder.

hehehe... ain't NOTHIN simple in the whole wide world.... grrrr

Scott
 
Sjohns,

If you have slop in the threads, can bend the arbor all ways when the dowel pin is is, try pulling the dowel pin out, again, tighten the arbor to the frame.

Chicoine says the Uberti is 5/16-18 thread. So, you would need to determine how many degrees of tightening it takes to lock the arbor, then calculate the thickness shim that it will take to tighten it with the arbor slot horizontal.

Another way would be to lock it in a padded vise, put the button of a dial indicator against the end of the arbor, crank it tight, see how much the indicator moves. I would add half to a thou and draw it tight so that the dowel would slip in, to be set by hammer/drift. Make a shim.

If you still want to silver solder it, go here:

http://shorinternational.com/Solders.htm

And look at their low temp silver solders. Scroll down to Hard Solders. 11.50 for a 1/2 ounce kit, melt temp. 430 degrees.

Cheers,

George
 
Hi George,
The condition of the base pin is such that with the dowel, or key pin installed, it has plenty of wiggle but does not turn. Of course with the dowel out, it does.

It seems that filling the threads some how will be the best bet. It would be either that kit with 3/64s on that solder ribbon or the paste in the tube with flux mixed already would do the trick.

But do you think that the lower temp solder would form a strong enough bond so that repeated bashings that it would get from say, 25/30 grains of powder wouldn't break it loose rather soon?
Or has your experience been that the bonding is strong enough? I ask because for both the retaining compound I looked at and this solder group, no tensile strength is listed, so I am blind about the bonding properties.

The jeweler I was talking to was pretty much referring to the "Easy Silver" (2nd tube variety) listed on that page. That sort of creates a "pre worry" about temperature, recoil shield and hardening.

Man! I sure do appreciate these responses. It gives me lots to think about so that I don't rush into it and end up with a temp fix. The book I read that states he uses silver solder mentioned no level or tensile strength. Makes me wonder what common silver solder paste was used in the 70's.

I ask all these questions so that I can narrow it down as far as possible before I make the choice.

Thanks for your patience!

Scott
 
Scott, I can't advise you exactly on the effect of heating the frame at the arbor to the temperature you mention or what to do. I can only say that if I had your problem in a revolver of mine, I'd probably go for it. My reasoning is as follows.The frames are generally made from lower carbon steel and case hardened. Heating the frame and allowing it to cool slowly would compromise the hard skin that case hardening gives the surface, which has the function of reducing wear. The case hardened surface is not what gives the frame it's strength, though. That comes from the body of the frame and it's softer, less brittle composition. The worst that could happen, in my opinion, is there might be more wear at the ring on the front of the frame where the cylinder bears. It would take a whole bunch of shooting before that ever became a problem. A brass frame is softer than an un-hardened steel one and those might wear faster but I have never worried about any lack of safety when shooting one.

All that is only if you heat the frame and allow it to cool slowly. If you heat the frame and, after your solder flows, you cool the frame quickly, you can probably make the thin, carbon bearing skin hard again, assuming your frame is truly case hardened to begin with. A lot of them have pretty colors but if hardened at all, the layer of hardness is so thin that it has little practical value.

At any rate, the revolver isn't functional as it is. If it was mine, I'd either fix it some way (probably try a wire welder from the rear in the hammer cut) or put it out of it's misery and maybe learn something in the process.

Steve
 
Of course, one COULD simply turn out a whole new base-pin/arbor of drill rod, thread to a larger size, and screw in with set screw as a keeper. (I asked the local pistolsmith how HE would do it) Was a BIG NEIN!!! to the silver solder mess. His most over used line is; 'do it right!!!'
 
Manyirons

Thanks Irons,

I do have a friend who has an old mutual friend's metal lathe and some stock. We talked about that for a few minutes.

The guy that makes Barstow Barrels is also here in town, and my friend Jim is a friend of Stoney's.

Actually I have been thinking: Hmm wish I had several bad pins to try all these methods out and make comparrisons. hehehe

So much to consider...
 
Sjohns

“Tinker2
Have you ever used it?”
Click to expand...

Yes I have, I have used Loctite to fix 2 brass framed ones. a .36 & .44

I have replaced the arbor with new over size ones also. I have bushed the frames
so I could put the original back in too.

I like to use Silver bearing solder and have used it on a lot of thing. That would
not by first choice on that gun, sight unseen.

If the threads just tighten past where the wedge slot should be, then a good shim
should work. If it is wiggly just a shim won’t fix it.

Again
I can’t say what I would do with that gun with out having the gun in my
hands and un-assembling it. Each is an individual.



Tinker2
 
Yep, know about Irv Stone, local gunsmith trained with Armand Swenson, Swenson introduced them, had to ask, saw the pictures at his shop!

But; 'do it right' is the only thing that kraut knows!
 
Thanks Tinker,
The individual idea works for even dialing these guns in. They all seem to work a little differently with different powders and balls. That's the nature of the beast.

Would possibly a circular shim or two from say, an aluminum can coupled with some purple locktite or retaining compound do it fairly well? I figure that anything more than that for bushing might necessitate that I grind a little off the nose of the arbor ro ensure fit with the barrel.

I understand what you are saying by not being able to observe the piece. It would be all the knowledge you have coming into play coupled to your intuitiveness that would tell you what to do. I do understand that.

I am glad that I didn't have to leap into some decision and possibly make a fatal mistake.

I think at this juncture I have these best choices:

1. Use stock and lathe it for size and shape, then thread it over sized and tap the frame to match.

2. Use silver solder to fill up the space that has developed between the threads with a compound that will do it the best.

2. begs the question of whether low temp silver solder or the next step up is desirable. The next step is 1000 to 1250 melting degrees. Low temp 450 roughly

3. I think using a shim and locktite together is feasible but since there is no data around, it isn't known what sort of longevity is brought with this.

The pressure on that pin is basically outward and in sharp jolts, because even though the cylinder may recede a bit, the blast is having its effect against the barrel primarily exerting pressure technically, I believe, away from the gun, stressing the wedge, the base pin, and the two little barrel pins. (Oh the joys of opentops!)

Both methods 1 and 2 are commonly used with success and track records, according to what I have read in various locations.

It seems like 1 is the best choice followed by the other two in sequence. I am willing to bet that most gunsmiths of 100 plus years ago had to do something like number 2. (I am not claiming that I need to be authentic here... just making a logical point.)

hmmmm
 

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You have the options correctly pegged, only thing now is go for one, and were it mine, #1 is the way i'd go!
 
Yep, know about Irv Stone, local gunsmith

I haven't met him yet, but saw him on stage here in town while he tries to help out by being on the city's planning commission. Initial impressions are that he's a good guy.

I suppose I need to get Jim to introduce me. (small town good ol' boy stuff..hehe)
 
Sjohns,

VTI for one sells new arbors for 12 bucks. Whether that would cure your problem or not, I do not know. It sounds like your threads are slightly stretched.

The only problem with making a new one is that you would have to lock it in place and mill and file the wedge slot, also. That will require more than a lathe. Does your friend also have a small mill?

How the new ones from Uberti would be fitted, I do not know, either, have never bought one. I'd suggest you seek their help, either through the help desk at VTI, Taylor's or Uberti itself.

Cheers,

George
 
George

Hi George,
The new ones would probably fit just like this one does, Its probably dependent upon whether the pin's threads or the frame's threads or both are whacked.
I might just have this local guy make me a new o/s one and he has everything he needs.
But still, it doesn't quite feel the same as fixing your own gun. I am a little bullish about that as I have been with my cars or trucks or anything else I've had during my lifetime.
 
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