Dallas Police Officer Shooting - .223 fails to penetrate vehicle

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Dec 26, 2002
Messages
14,613
Location
Texas
Saw this comment in John Farnam's quips and thought it might be worthy of discussion here in S&T:

The point of this is that at least one responding officer was armed with an EOTech-equipped AR-15. Both rifle and optic ran just fine. The ammunition did not! The police rifle was loaded with WW 55gr ballistic silvertip. Range was less than fifty feet. With over fifteen rounds fired at the suspect, penetration of the vehicle door and glass was poor, with every bullet fired breaking up upon impact and failing to penetrate intact. Only fragments came through and did merely superficial damage to the suspect. In fact, it was police handgun rounds fired at the suspect, particularly 357SIG, that did penetrate and subsequently wounded him severely enough to persuade him to stop fighting.

I am convinced that even 55gr hardball would have performed better.

Given that one of the benefits of .223 is its reduced penetration with many loads, I am wondering how many departments are issuing ammunition designed to maximize that benefit without being conscious of the problems it will create in and around vehicles?
 
Surely they can pick up some junk vehicle doors from the wrecking yards and shoot those? I would be interested in that if I was in that game. IIRC a member called VUPDBlue did some windscreen and door tests like that. Mind you, that could have been on TFL.
Anyway, the interest is there. If it was me I would do those tests even if I had to do them solo. (I'm just putting myself in those officers' shoes for a moment).
 
We use junk vehicles at the range at least once a year. We practice shooting from outside simulating a traffice stop, and from inside through the windshield and windows simulating being ambushed while in the vehicle. We also test our ammunition to determine penetration and ricochet characteristics. I think the problem with the ballistic silvertips is that they were designed for thin-skinned game and not for general purpose. We use Remington .223 55 grain hardball and it seems to penetrate through doors just fine. A 1 oz. 12 gauge slug does even better. :D
 
Yikes! And just when I'm getting convinced that 223 is a good round. I'm going to have to do some tests of my own, AP rounds are a bit too penetrating for comfort, I wonder what's a good middle round. Box of truth did a little on this I think...
 
Yeah I heard about that the other day, but I didn't know the details.

Thanks for posting it.
 
The police rifle was loaded with WW 55gr ballistic silvertip.

Don't blame this on 5.56. That is a hunting bullet. Works great on coyotes. What in the world are they thinking using that in Police work?
The only thing it has in common with Winchesters handgun ammo is the name "Silvertip".

I would say that this ammo performed exactly as it was designed to.


Was this a "lowest bidder" choice?

There are MUCH better choices for police ammo.
 
There are several better choices in 223/5.56 than the 55 wst ammo depeding on barrel length/ twist etc.........from Dr Gary Roberts


For general purpose combat use with 1/7 twist barrels from 0 to 600 yards, I would choose one of the combat proven 5.56 mm (ie. 5.56 mm NATO pressure loads, not .223 SAAMI pressure loads which run about 200 f/s slower) heavy match OTM loadings: either the Hornady 75 gr TAP (#8126N) using the OTM bullet w/cannelure or the equally good 77 gr Nosler OTM w/cannelure loaded by Black Hills, followed by the 77 gr Sierra Match King OTM-which, while exceedingly accurate, offers slightly reduced terminal effects. If your expected engagement scenario is at more typical LE distances, say out to 200 yards, then the .223 SAAMI pressure loads are fine. The experimental BH loaded 100 gr OTM exhibits impressive fragmentation, even at relatively low velocities, however, their trajectory is like a rainbow-definitely for use under 150 - 200 yards.

NOTE: For general purpose LE use, if stuck with 1/9 twist barrels, the heavy 70+ gr match OTM loads are not universally accurate in all rifles and the 69 gr SMK OTM, the 68 gr Hornady OTM, the Winchester 64 gr JSP (RA223R2), or one of the new Federal 64 gr TRU (223L) JSP, Hornady 60 gr JSP, or Nosler 60 gr Partition JSP's are the best choices to most likely run accurately in the majority of 1/9 twist rifles. You are screwed with 1/12 twists, I would probably choose the 55 gr Federal bonded JSP load (Tactical--LE223T1 or identical Premium Rifle--P223T2) in order to ensure adequate penetration.

If routinely engaging vehicles, the only LE .223 loads which effectively penetrate automobiles are the 62 gr Federal bonded JSP Tactical (LE223T3) and the similarly performing 55 gr Federal bonded JSP load. While not bad choices, neither the new Hornady 60 gr “barrier penetration” JSP nor the 60 gr Nosler Partition JSP bullets were quite as effective as the proven Trophy Bonded Bear Claws against glass in our testing. None of the OTM bullets, even the heavy 75 - 100 gr loads, offer good performance through automobile glass. FWIW, contrary to what many believe, 62 gr M855 FMJ also is not very good against glass. For military use, the M995 AP is the best choice for vehicles and glass.

If a short barreled 5.56 mm weapon, such as the Colt Commando, LMT/Crane Mk18 CQBR, HK416, HK 53, HK G36C, etc… is used with a 1/7 twist barrel, the 75 gr Hornady OTM, 77 gr Nosler OTM, 77 gr SMK OTM, and 100 gr BH OTM loadings offer acceptable performance, as do the LE Fed 55 or 62 gr Tac bonded JSP's and the 60 gr Nosler Partition JSP bullet; for LE with a 1/9 twist, stick with the Fed 55 or 62 gr Tac bonded JSP's or the 60 gr Nosler Partition JSP bullet. Remember, with barrels under 14.5”, the effective engagement distance is significantly reduced compared to the longer barreled carbines.

(Note: We are in the process of testing the .224 Barnes TSX all copper bullets--it looks like they may have good potential; if these preliminary results hold true through the conclusion of testing, then they will also be on the recommended list)

Whatever projectile is used, it is best with a cannelure to prevent bullet set-back in semi-auto/auto weapons. Also, be cautious with the exposed lead on the JSP designs. Often they will run great for up to 200-300 rounds, but then mysterious feeding failures will begin as a result of lead build-up on the feed ramps. I have personally seen this occur with a variety of JSP's including 55 gr, 60 gr, and 64 gr in a recent LE training course. As soon as FMJ or OTM was substituted, all the feeding failures ceased.

Be sure to watch your ammo storage conditions. Temperatures above 150 deg F will degrade the powder and cause pressure spikes. Hint: Think locked metal conex containers in the mid-east, car trunks in the southern U.S., and storage areas near heaters in the northern U.S.

------------------------------

Most LE agencies around here use the Hornady 75 gr TAP OTM, Federal 55/62 gr bonded Tactical JSP, or Winchester 64 gr JSP (it is on the state contract and is VERY inexpensive)--all have worked very well in actual officer involved shootings. I carry the Hornady 75 gr OTM (SAAMI load) in 30 rd mags and a few 20 rd mags of Federal Tactical 62 gr JSP for barrier situations.

Do short barrel 5.56 mm carbines have some limitations? Yes, especially beyond 100 yards, but BFD…learn what they are, train, and drive on. For LE urban work with lots of entries and mounted work I use a 10.5” LMT CQB-R w/Aimpoint and Noveske KFH because, despite the ballistic compromise, for the mission it is the best choice.
 
Last edited:
Interesting. Pistols beat an AR! :p
Glass is a cockeyed substance... amorphous something or other. Fast and very light bullets (designed for mushrooming, as I reckon this silver tip is) may smash themselves up a bit on impact - where a slower bullet might punch on through. This ain't a .45 vs 9mm crack, just a thought on 2000+ FPS lightweight rounds versus 900-1300 FPS rounds of slightly higher weights.
Maybe an M1 Carbine would be a better choice, in some instances, than the .223? Dunno.
Think Dallas coppers are using shorty ARs, for what it's worth.
 
For general purpose combat use with 1/7 twist barrels from 0 to 600 yards... ...Hint: Think locked metal conex containers in the mid-east, car trunks in the southern U.S., and storage areas near heaters in the northern U.S.

Booner, that is a DocGKR comment isn't it? Or was that your own commentary?
 
I am wondering how many departments are issuing ammunition designed to maximize that benefit without being conscious of the problems it will create in and around vehicles?

Probably most. One bullet can't do everything. "Sufficient" penetration changes with the circumstances. In this circumstance a 55-grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claw would have been perfect medicine. Change the circumstance to include an active-shooter in an open field with innocent bystanders? That 55-grain Ballistic Silvertip looks a little more attractive.

One load isn't going to work for civilian police, regardless of caliber. Their situation changes too much, too fast.
 
Last edited:
Wrong round for the job. HP's for hitting soft bodies, FMJ (or other penetrators) for shooting through things.

But the rule that 5.56 hp OVERpenetrates less than a 9mm/40/45 pistol rounds was proven true. Of course, it penetrates less than a 9mm/40/45 pistols rounds also. There are no smart bullets. You have to choose the right round.

I always carry at least one mag of FMJ.

Carrying a .45/70 wouldn't make much sense in most other police shootings, especially in Dallas, where the ability to shoot through fifteen car doors isn't desirable.
 
Police arms

I think .38 special lever guns ought to be about right. The police aren't going to get in protracted shoot-outs and don't have any business with semi-auto OR certainly select fire weapons. Police strength isn't in firepower but in layered response, identification, intelligence. That's what does the trick. Shooting 308 in urban setting is very dangerous, semi-auto 5.56 equally problematic. They aren't going up against James Bond or Special Forces. Criminals are universally one layer thick.

That said, the only Dallas Policeman I know well carries a rifle behind the seat of his truck. He swears he is never getting caught without a suitable weapon to fight with. His truck gun is a Garand with a bandolier of LC. He's a Distinguished Rifleman, NRA Master class, even killed an elk with it a few years ago, so he's qualified to carry a real gun in the city. Most policemen: No way.
 
Quote:
For general purpose combat use with 1/7 twist barrels from 0 to 600 yards... ...Hint: Think locked metal conex containers in the mid-east, car trunks in the southern U.S., and storage areas near heaters in the northern U.S.
Booner, that is a DocGKR comment isn't it? Or was that your own commentary?

If I'm not mistaken the entire essay is from Doc.
 
The police aren't going to get in protracted shoot-outs and don't have any business with semi-auto OR certainly select fire weapons.

I'd have to disagree with that. In Tyler, we had the guy who shot up the courthouse (and several police officers) with an AK47. He was finally brought down by officers with AR15s.

In Richardson, we had a multi-jurisdiction rolling gunfight down the local roads with a gang of AK47-toting ban robbers. This was prior to Dallas getting rifles and the dash cam footage from Dallas police cars mostly shows them stopping and letting the bandits speed away as they take a ton of rounds.

In this shooting, the murderer had an AR pistol and had already killed one officer.

All of these were in the past several years. It seems to me that there is ample justification, even beyond the normal reasoning used in calmer jurisdictions, to support arming Dallas police with rifles.
 
Yes it is from doc.......

I have several pages of other info for when i was setting up a patrol rifle course for a dept..... Doc is great info to start off with....... as well as actual shootin ginfo and more testing done i compiled as much info as i can test it if aplacabile then present it to the depts or civies
 
Blackfork,
What do you know about police work? What qualifies you to make those statements? If you don't wish to post your bona fides in public you may PM me with them.

Jeff
 
LOL thanks.
i couldnt find the quote button
I just figured out how to quote stuff........ thanks

sorry for the mess up.
 
Thanks for clarifying

Wasn't trying to jump you just didn't want some net commando stealing someone's good work.
 
Scared me, dude..I thought you'd found spell checker

Yes Thanks, Barb if i didn't know you i would almost be offended,
By the way how are the cooking lessons coming?:neener:

Bratch all good brother.......... non taken my own error.
 
"In Richardson, we had a multi-jurisdiction rolling gunfight down the local roads with a gang of AK47-toting ban robbers."

So that's why Richardson coppers have shorty ARs + shotguns. Thought it was a little bit odd... just 'cause of the size of the city.
I don't have any objection to cops having ARs, as long as they use 'em in a justifiable manner (to shoot people who need to be shot). I think a M1 Carbine *might* have better penetration than .223 HP rounds, of things like glass and car bodies... but AP rounds in .223 ought to do a better job than either. In theory, anyways.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top