Dallas Police Officer Shooting - .223 fails to penetrate vehicle

[LAK]

For anyone choosing a .223 for their rack or trunk, the M855 (NATO SS109) round would be a better choice than one loaded with a pure varmint bullet or M193 ball. At almost 62 grains the bullet is just a tad heavier than the standard ball, has the hardened penetrator, and all up better sectional density. From shorty barrels the lower velocity will probably enhance penetration on vehicles by reducing impact fragmentation.

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http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

 

[Lucky]

Ok there seems to be of misunderstanding, I think we got off on the wrong foot. Even the Oly article is inconsistent with Ammo-Oracle enumerations, and since it's basically an advertisement for their products, you have to give it less weight than some other sources. Not that it's wrong, but that it's going to be slightly biased. There is nothing mysterious about 5.56 bullets fragmenting. Nothing.

First off, no one in this thread has suggested that anyone use civilian residences for a backstop.

One more time - that is the whole reason why Dallas PD chose those bullets for their patrol rifles. You yourself already wrote "Most police gunfights don't occur on rifle ranges or golf courses. They occur in urban areas or inside of structures." Heck, the article you have referred to twice says that missed shots are such a concern that many officers don't want patrol rifles issued that are able to penetrate the armor of same officers.

The entire article is largely 'discovering' old news, and deals almost entirely with close ranges. If you take the time to read it, you'll see several references to concerns about misses. Here's a good one:

If misses occur, it is desirable that once the stray round strikes a solid object, it expends its energy and disintegrates into relatively harmless pieces. If deep, barrier penetration is necessary, special ammunition or projectiles [or weapons] possessing this attribute can be selected.

Which is exactly what the Dalls P.D. did, they issued a bullet designed to do the former to the patrol rifles, and let the SWAT teams choose whatever they needed for their situations. People here have written multiple times that it might not be a bad idea to have a seperate magazine of better penetrating ammunition, to be used in special circumstances where penetration is safe and required. But it's simply not acceptable to use that ammunition all the time. Totally unacceptable.

there is only one armor piercing 5.56mm round that I know of

So you want to play semantics? Armor = a protective layer. Piercing = penetrating. Ergo any bullet that penetrates a protective layer is armor piercing. Now with that in mind, I refer you to the tables below. Any rifle bullet is armor piercing, depending on the armor.



http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-06-11/ch7.htm

b. Weapon Penetration. The penetration that can be achieved with a 5.56-mm round depends on the range to the target and the type of material being fired against. The M16A2, M4, and M249 achieve greater penetration than the older M16A1, but only at longer ranges. At close range, the weapons perform the same. Single 5.56-mm rounds are not effective against structural materials (as opposed to partitions) when fired at close range—the closer the range, the less the penetration.

(1) 5.56 mm Maximum Penetration. For the 5.56-mm round, maximum penetration occurs at 200 meters. At ranges less then 25 meters, penetration is greatly reduced. At 10 meters, penetration by the M16 round is poor due to the tremendous stress placed on this high-speed round, which causes it to yaw upon striking a target. Stress causes the projectile to break up, and the resulting fragments are often too small to penetrate.
(2) Reduced Penetration. Even with reduced penetration at short ranges, interior walls made of thin wood paneling, Sheetrock, or plaster are no protection against 5.56-mm ball ammunition rounds. Common office furniture, such as desks and chairs, cannot stop these rounds, but a layer of books 18 to 24 inches thick can.

(3) Wood and Cinder Blocks. Wooden frame buildings and single cinder block walls offer little protection from 5.56-mm rounds. When clearing such structures, soldiers must ensure friendly casualties do not result from rounds passing through walls, floors, or ceilings.

(4) Armor-Piercing Rounds. Armor-piercing rounds are slightly more effective than ball ammunition in penetrating urban targets at all ranges. They are more likely to ricochet than ball ammunition when the target presents a high degree of obliquity.

c. Protection. The following common barriers in urban areas stop a 5.56-mm round fired at less than 50 meters:

One thickness of well-packed sandbags.

A 2-inch concrete wall (nonreinforced).

A 55-gallon drum filled with water or sand.

A small ammunition can filled with sand.

A cinder block filled with sand (block will probably shatter).

A plate glass windowpane at a 45-degree angle (glass fragments may be thrown behind the glass).

A brick veneer.

A car body (5.56-mm rounds penetrate but may not always exit).

d. Wall Penetration. Although most structural materials repel single 5.56-mm rounds, continued and concentrated firing can breach some typical urban structures (see Table 7-2).

(1) Breaching Masonry Walls. The best method for breaching a masonry wall is by firing short bursts (three to five rounds) in a U-shaped pattern. The distance from the gunner to the wall should be minimized for best results—ranges as close as 25 meters are relatively safe from ricochet. Ballistic eye protection, protective vest, and helmet should be worn.

(2) Ball and Armor-Piercing Ammunition. Ball ammunition and armor-piercing rounds produce almost the same results, but armor-piercing rounds are more likely to fly back at the shooter. The 5.56-mm round can be used to create either a loophole (about 7 inches in diameter) or a breach hole (large enough for a man to enter). When used against reinforced concrete, 5.56-mm rounds cannot cut the reinforcing bars.

TYPE
PENETRATION
ROUNDS
(REQUIRED)

8-inch reinforced concrete Initial
Loophole 35
250

14-inch triple brick Initial
Loophole 90
160

12-inch cinder block with single-brick veneer Loophole
Breach hole 60
250

9-inch double brick Initial
Loophole 70
120

16-inch tree trunk or log wall Initial* 1 to 3

12-inch cinder block (filled with sand) Loophole 35

24-inch double sandbag wall Initial* 220

3/8-inch mild steel door Initial* 1

*Penetration only, no loophole.


Table 7-2. Structure penetration capabilities of the 5.56-mm round against typical urban targets (range 25 to 100 meters).

 

[Jeff White]

Even the Oly article is inconsistent with Ammo-Oracle enumerations, and since it's basically an advertisement for their products,

I may just check with the FBI to see if they are hawking Olympic Arms products. I rather doubt that either Gunsite or the FBI is interested in hawking Olympic Arms ARs.

Which is exactly what the Dalls P.D. did, they issued a bullet designed to do the former to the patrol rifles, and let the SWAT teams choose whatever they needed for their situations. People here have written multiple times that it might not be a bad idea to have a seperate magazine of better penetrating ammunition, to be used in special circumstances where penetration is safe and required. But it's simply not acceptable to use that ammunition all the time. Totally unacceptable.

The entire point of this thread is that Dallas PD chose the wrong ammunition for patrol use. It's not practical to have a magazine of special use ammo for use around vehicles with a patrol rifle. The situations where a patrol rifle is likely to be used often happen too fast for an officer to remember to load the special ammunition. I agree with John Farnam, they chose poorly.

For the record, I do keep a magazine of non duty ammunition with my AR. I carry a magazine of M193 that I use to dispatch injured whitetail deer after traffic accidents.

So you want to play semantics? Armor = a protective layer. Piercing = penetrating. Ergo any bullet that penetrates a protective layer is armor piercing. Now with that in mind, I refer you to the tables below. Any rifle bullet is armor piercing, depending on the armor.

The generally accepted definition of armor is something that is purposely designed to protect against an attack. Most homes are not constructed to be proof against small arms fire. Armor piercing ammunition is not required.

An agency has a responsiblility to issue ammunition that will meet the normal requirements of their officers. Since a large number of police shootings happen in and around vehicles a round that allows some effectiveness in that environment is what should be issued. With proper training, your worries about innocent bystanders being hit from thousands of meters away are moot.

Jeff

 

[Lucky]

Well, I understand and respect your opinion, but think it's an 'agree to disagree' kind of situation.

 

[Jeff White]

Fair enough....

Jeff

 

[7677]

This is interesting....when I left DPD, the city was about bankrupt and owed millions on a lawsuit to the Fire and Police Association that was compounding daily. There was a Tactical Team but the word SWAT was not spoken. To top it all off, they hired an incompetent chief who was under investigation by the FBI who ran off most of the good officers within the first year of taking the position. So, where in the Sam Hill did DPD get the money for dash cams and patrol rifles?

I may just check with the FBI to see if they are hawking Olympic Arms products.

Don't bother, I haven't seen one yet and I shoot with them at least twice a year.

I have found that most people that can't hit the side of a barn at five paces usually blame the gun or the ammunition when something goes wrong so when I hear stories like this I take them with a grain of salt. But, I have to agree that using a soft point round against vehicles is not going to get the job done. I like M193 plus I never had a problem putting the enemy down with it but like with every other weapon I used placement is the key.

 

[Reyn]

If this is the same one im thinking of it was a tactics failure that resulted in the officers death more than ammo. The car had dark tinted windows and they couldnt see inside.They were bank robbers. The officer approached to bust out the window and was shot pretty much point blank. I'll try and find the whole article. On duty i carry a mag of Fed LE223T3 bonded and 75gr Hornady 556 TAP. One for vehicle type situations and the other for general defense situations.

plastic-tipped rounds


08:37 AM CDT on Wednesday, April 4, 2007
By TANYA EISERER / The Dallas Morning News
[email protected]

Some Dallas patrol officers are complaining that they don't have the right bullets for their AR-15 rifles.

Their concerns were prompted by the March 23 slaying of Senior Cpl. Mark Nix after he rushed up to a Chevrolet Caprice that he believed contained a murder suspect.

When other patrol officers fired AR-15 rifle rounds at the windows of the Caprice, the plastic-tipped rounds penetrated the windows, but the bullets fragmented upon entry into the car.

That's exactly what the rounds were meant to do, said Deputy Chief Floyd Simpson, who supervises the pistol range.

Currently, the Police Department issues plastic-tipped rounds for its roughly 300 AR-15 rifles used by patrol officers. Plastic-tipped rounds are designed to fragment upon entering a target.

But some officers want to be issued metal-tipped rounds – what are commonly known as "full metal jacket" bullets – which do not fragment upon hitting a target. Full metal jacket rounds continue along their trajectory after they penetrate thicker surfaces such as some windows, doors or a person's body.

"I just can't put those type of rounds in an everyday officer's rifle and think that I am legitimately taking care of the community," Chief Simpson said.

The concern is that an officer may fire an AR-15 at an intended target and the bullet would travel too far, striking an innocent victim.

Senior Cpl. Michael Pottorff, president of the Dallas Fraternal Order of Police, said he wants to raise the issue with Police Chief David Kunkle.

He said he's not saying that giving officers full metal jacket rounds is the answer, but he wants to see if there's another type of ammunition that could be added to the patrol arsenal.

"I'm not saying that the round we have is a bad round," Cpl. Pottorff said.

Senior Cpl. Glenn White, president of the Dallas Police Association, said, "I think we should be concerned that the equipment that we've got is basically useless under certain circumstances and conditions."

John Merito, manager of DFW Gun Range, said full metal jacket rounds should only be used in very tightly controlled situations.

"If they're going to be spraying and praying, then you're going to have a bunch of loose bullets flying all over the place that ricochet and then ricochet until it hits something solid," Mr. Merito said. "In between ricocheting and bouncing around, it could hit" an innocent bystander.

The department's tactical officers have been issued the full metal jacket rounds, Chief Simpson said

 

[gak]

Nice glass test, thanks. I'm curious how a regular foster slug would perform compared to a Brenneke. Like maybe Winchester's 1oz power point 1700fps foster rifled slug (X12RSPP). Anyone able to try it ?

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

So, where in the Sam Hill did DPD get the money for dash cams and patrol rifles?

One of the local gun shows donated a .50 BMG rifle and some AR15s for the program; but I believe the majority of the program is financed via "personal purchase." Officers are allowed to purchase certain pre-approved rifles and take the training course to be certified to carry them on patrol.

 

[Quoheleth]

You know...I find "ammo failures" an interesting study. In this case, the ammo failed to penetrate and it's performance is considered unacceptable. I recently read the book BLACKHAWK DOWN and one of the problems the Rangers were facing that day in Somalia was the exact opposite. As I recall, the Army was complaining that ammo wasn't providing enough penetration, so soldiers were given "green" ammo. While it was great for penetration, it wasn't worth a flip in knock-down power on humans. Some kind of "super FMJ" the way the book described it, it was punching 5.56 holes through people. It was taking 5, 6, or more hits to take down a Somali mob member. The Army overcompensated: in it's desire to provide penetration it failed to provide knockdown power.

Point: Be careful what is wished for. Pendulums swing fast from one extreme to the other...

Preacher Man

 

[Rifleman 173]

Same thing happened a couple of years ago in Hamilton County Indiana near Indianapolis. Drug cops and a SWAT team went to serve a search warrant at the house of a dealer. The dealer was not home when the officers were there. As the officers started to leave, the dealer shows up in a Suburban and tries to run over the officers. The officers using the AR-15s in .223 had their bullets deflected or made useless by the metal and glass. The officers with the .40 S&W caliber Glock pistols put their bullets through things to "the properly needed location." The pistol-shooting cops got the job done when the AR-15 rifles couldn't. Since then, I've started to switch over to an AK/SAR-1 rifle for most of my tactical needs because of better penetration. I thought about an Olympic Arms AR-15 that uses Glock magazines either in 9mm or .40 caliber ammo but I think that I'd get a little better distance, if I happened to need it, from an updated/modern AK/SAR-1 type rifle. Decisions. Decisions. Decisions.:banghead:

 

[glockman19]

If you know of any other armor piercing 5.56 then tell us about it.

223 LAKE CITY SS109 GREEN TIP 223
62 GRAIN - STEEL PENETRATOR - PACKED LOOSE
1000 RDS. PER CASE
$320- 1,000 Rounds.

http://www.ammoman.com/index.htm

 

[nemoaz]

As the officers started to leave, the dealer shows up in a Suburban and tries to run over the officers.

And someone forgot rear security? And maybe didn't have good intel on the bad guys vehicle?

 

[Jeff White]

223 LAKE CITY SS109 GREEN TIP 223
62 GRAIN - STEEL PENETRATOR - PACKED LOOSE
1000 RDS. PER CASE
$320- 1,000 Rounds.

Is not armor piercing. It's standard ball ammunition. No one, not the military, not the BATFE, no one considers that armor piercing ammunition even though it has a tiny steel penetrator in it. I'll have to email Rob at ammoman. SS109 was never loaded at Lake City. The US designation for the cartridge is M855.

Jeff

 

[gezzer]

Ahhhhhhh? Wouldn’t shooting more than once do the trick?

 

[Lucky]

Since this is still alive, you're both technically right. Thank the Belgians, for naming the bullet but not the cartridge.

Quoheleth that's exactly it! There's ALWAYS going to be something or one that is worse off in any compromise.

And it's not a secret that 5.56 bullets will not work well at close ranges, it was already known back in Vietnam that twigs and heavy blades of grass could deflect or shatter m855's. Aiui the steel core was added to meet a bureaucrats requirement to penetrate a PASGT helmet at 500m or something silly like that.

repost:

(1) 5.56 mm Maximum Penetration. For the 5.56-mm round, maximum penetration occurs at 200 meters. At ranges less then 25 meters, penetration is greatly reduced. At 10 meters, penetration by the M16 round is poor due to the tremendous stress placed on this high-speed round, which causes it to yaw upon striking a target. Stress causes the projectile to break up, and the resulting fragments are often too small to penetrate.

Gezzer lol good one! Though I think you said that in jest, that's actually a sort of holy-grail of the sub-caliber high-velocity theory. Most-close-to-common production rifles are the German G11 and the Russian AN94. G11 had a 3-shot burst that would put all the bullets into nearly the same hole, by trapping recoil until the 3rd round was fired. It was actually produced and a company was issued them, but 1989 came along and the whole program was scrapped, so they took their rifles away. AN94 is the same idea but Russian, so they didn't go for any great leaps like caseless ammo, they just have a sort of sub-chamber for a cartridge to rest, that then gets loaded and fired when the first shot fires, so it's got a 2-shot burst with delayed recoil.

While it's tempting to say that the bullets are just too small, the urge must be fought

 

[obxned]

Great bullet for coyotes, but lousy for two-legged cockroaches in cars. Don't blame the cartridge, blame poor bullet choice.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Ahhhhhhh? Wouldn’t shooting more than once do the trick?

Laminated window glass is a very tough intermediate barrier. Check the Federal gel shots in the Rifle Forum Reading Library. 55gr FMJ penetrates only 3.5" after passing through auto windshield. Also because of the lamination, it sticks together and continues to defeat other rounds unless you put the shots through or near the initial hole.

it was already known back in Vietnam that twigs and heavy blades of grass could deflect or shatter m855's

M855 wasn't introduced until the early 1980s. It was an FN invention originally typed as SS109 and designed to sell the Minimi (SAW) to U.S. forces. The U.S. version of SS109 that was adopted is the M855. Prior to that, the U.S. used the 55gr ball round called M193.

 

[Jeff White]

And it's not a secret that 5.56 bullets will not work well at close ranges, it was already known back in Vietnam that twigs and heavy blades of grass could deflect or shatter m855's

Twigs and heavy blades of grass will defelct everything from .22 short to .50 BMG. I have seen it with my own eyes. And Batholomew is right, there was no such thing as M855 in Vietnam. M855 was not adopted by the American military until 1982 when the USMC decided on the M16A2 as standard and and the Army type classified the Minimi as the M249 SAW. It wasn't widely available in the American military until about 1984. The last ground combat troops were pulled out of RVN in 1973 and the last time an American soldier fired an M16 in anger in SEA was in 1975. That's 7 years before the M855 with it's Belgian designed bullet was standardized.

The SS109 bullet was created to allow a 5.56x45 round to penetrate the M1 steel helmet at 600 meters. A strong man can put a screwdrive through an old steel pot with his bare hands. It's not exactly armor plated.

Jeff

 

[Greybeard]

A detective member at our range was out yesterday and we discussed this incident in a little more detail. He said at the end of the chase, the BG's car had spun out and stopped in such a position that Officer Nix's car was, unfortunately, on it immediately - nose to nose, at which point the BG went horizontal behind heavily tinted windows.

Officer Nix exited his chase car and was attempting to break out BG's passenger side window with baton in one hand and handgun in other. Glass ruptured, but heavy lamination held the window intact as BG, from horizontal position in seat, put .223 pistol rounds through the same window. At least one of the rounds penetrated vest and another round hit his badge, with fragments of the badge and/or bullet causing the severe neck wound. At least two of the other arriving officers opened up with the ARs and went in to get their fallen companion.

The BG was still horizontal and stayed that way in the midst of the barrage of bullets. But what appears to have put the BG down until SWAT went in sometime later was not necessarily bullets, but flying glass fragments - lots of 'em ...

 

[Lucky]

Heh true, I confused the cartrdige names, I'll go consult the oracle for forgiveness

But I'm pretty sure that most larger & sub 3000fps bullets don't get deflected or fragmented by foilage as easily as 5.56. Obviously bullet shape and design has a lot to do with it, since elephant hunters use bullets that penetrate DEEP and suffer little deflection despite honkin bones and tissue. But the lightness and velocity seem to mean that kinetic energy is great, but momentum density is lacking, which hurts it when dealing with barriers.

 

[Jeff White]

Lucky said;

But I'm pretty sure that most larger & sub 3000fps bullets don't get deflected or fragmented by foilage as easily as 5.56. Obviously bullet shape and design has a lot to do with it, since elephant hunters use bullets that penetrate DEEP and suffer little deflection despite honkin bones and tissue.

Well you are wrong. All you have to do is spend a little time behind a machine gun shooting 1-4 tracer or all tracer and you'll see how bullets deflect. Even the M2 .50 caliber machine gun round will take off for parts unknown if it hits branches and twigs. Ever heard of skip firing? You can deflect anything you can shoot from a .22 to 12 gauge buckshot by shooting it at an angle into hard surfaces. Why do you think people who know what they are about in CQB don't hug the walls like you see in the movies?

Penetration has everything to do with the angle the bullet hits the resistance at. Anything from a .22 to a .50 BMG will penetrate a lot of things if it hits at a 90 degree angle. I can go to my range and take a picture of an oak tree stump that was cut down by M193 because it was used to prop up a target and took many rounds of M193. They key is hitting the target at the right angle. If the angle is too steep, anything will ricochet and deflect off of things that you think it should sail right through.

As for elephant hunters having rounds that don't deflect inside the animal, that's got everything to do with the bullet construction and velocity and even then there are no guarantees. Terminal ballistics (how the bullet performs in it's target and exterior ballistics (how it flies through the air) are two very different things. You can't make any comparison between how a round will deflect on twigs as to how it will perform in it's target.

Jeff

 

[Double Naught Spy]

The BG was still horizontal and stayed that way in the midst of the barrage of bullets. But what appears to have put the BG down until SWAT went in sometime later was not necessarily bullets, but flying glass fragments - lots of 'em ...

Very good Greybeard. What you noted from your source matches what another told me. Basically, the suspect was not even where the officers were shooting, not just being horizontal, but down in the footwell. The claims of not injuring the suspect because of fragmentation of the round is bogus given that the rounds were not hitting the suspect because officers were shooting to a portion of the car where the suspect wasn't located. You can shoot all day long at the windows and doors with AP rounds and they won't do any good if the areas where the rounds are penetrating are not occupied by the intended target on the other side.

You might get lucky with some deflection, as noted by Jeff White, but you might not as well.

And he is right, even the mighty .50 BMG rounds can deflect off of seemingly inconsequential objects. It is counterintuitive, but true.

 

[the naked prophet]

I'll attest to the deflection of bullets by twigs. I fired at a deer, broadside 30 yards away, 7.62x39 125 grain Winchester Super-X PSP, from a WASR-10. I know from shooting at the range, that I can make that shot out to 200 yards. My first shot hit a twig about 15-20 yards away, I saw the branch shake, and the doe just sat there. I fired one more shot, clean through the heart. Turns out the first shot deflected nearly five feet, and went through the doe's rear leg, near the ankle. I went back and found the scar on the twig, still have it somewhere in a box.

 

[jaholder1971]

A modest proposal...

Anyone tried testing the performance of Black Hill's Mk 262 on vehicle doors and glass? It seems to be the best option out there for performance, especially in the AR15 carbines.