Decided to start Annealing - Here's my setup

[.38 Special]

The water quench is intended to prevent the base from getting too hot, which supposedly weakens it. It's one of those hoary old tales which have been passed down forever. I honestly don't know if it is true - I've never actually heard of a case failing because of too much annealing - but I'd hate to be the one who proves it, so I continue to be on the cautious side. I use a plain torch, hold the case in my fingers, and rotate the shoulder in the flame until it it just begins to glow orange in a dim room. This normally takes about a five count - I'm sure it depends on how hot the torch is, and where in the flame you are holding the case - and then I drop it into a water bucket before the base gets too hot to hold. This has always worked for me, and as I am a low-volume rifle shooter I see no need to spend money on the project. (Some people prefer to stand the case in a half-inch of water while running the torch around the shoulder. This supposedly guarantees against overheating the base, but I find it clumsy myself.)

There is, for what it is worth, there is a fellow here who argues quite strongly that this sort of traditional method is a waste of time and accomplishes nothing. He seems quite knowledgeable about metallurgy, and I can't rebut any of his points except by noting that when I am making significant changes to the case - necking down wildcats, for example - or even just trying to extend the life of expensive and//or rare cases, my old and primitive technique clearly and objectively works.

 

[Kaldor]

This is my machine.

Auto annealer

www.youtube.com

No water quench needed, high heat short duration, keeps heat migration too the case head minimal. I can even handle them right out of the flame, just have to grab them low.

Brass annealing

www.youtube.com

Im working on automating an AGS annealer right now to use a standard case feeder like a Dillon or a Hornady. The price was right, and I want the dual torches so I can get high heat on the case fast and speed everything up as well.

 

[Kaldor]

The water quench is intended to prevent the base from getting too hot, which supposedly weakens it. It's one of those hoary old tales which have been passed down forever. I honestly don't know if it is true - I've never actually heard of a case failing because of too much annealing - but I'd hate to be the one who proves it, so I continue to be on the cautious side. I use a plain torch, hold the case in my fingers, and rotate the shoulder in the flame until it it just begins to glow orange in a dim room. This normally takes about a five count - I'm sure it depends on how hot the torch is, and where in the flame you are holding the case - and then I drop it into a water bucket before the base gets too hot to hold. This has always worked for me, and as I am a low-volume rifle shooter I see no need to spend money on the project. (Some people prefer to stand the case in a half-inch of water while running the torch around the shoulder. This supposedly guarantees against overheating the base, but I find it clumsy myself.)

There is, for what it is worth, there is a fellow here who argues quite strongly that this sort of traditional method is a waste of time and accomplishes nothing. He seems quite knowledgeable about metallurgy, and I can't rebut any of his points except by noting that when I am making significant changes to the case - necking down wildcats, for example - or even just trying to extend the life of expensive and//or rare cases, my old and primitive technique clearly and objectively works.

If you can still touch the base of the case then you are not overheating anything. It takes brass getting significantly hotter than we can touch which is why we generally set at 750 degrees with Tempilaq.

 

[dobedo]

View attachment 1193446

Is anyone else chuckling because of the certain line in a certain movie?
I know it's the bare minimum, but it seems to do the job.
I

I just chuck my 30/30s in my case reamer crank and use a small propane torch.

 

[westernrover]

This is my machine.

Auto annealer

www.youtube.com

No water quench needed, high heat short duration, keeps heat migration too the case head minimal. I can even handle them right out of the flame, just have to grab them low.

Brass annealing

www.youtube.com

Why is the flame so far away from the brass? I want to put the hottest part of the flame right at the neck so I get maximum heat to the local area without giving it excess time for heat to conduct down to the base. I was taught the hottest part is the tip of the inner blue cone. Is that right? I used to think I knew stuff, but now with the internet, I can never be sure.

 

[AJC1]

I just chuck my 30/30s in my case reamer crank and use a small propane torch.

That's kinda what I do, I use the tail rod of my Hornaday case trimmer and the correct shell holder.

 

[Litetrigger]

View attachment 1193449
Here are some cases I practiced on. Less time in flame to more. Please comment.

There is a wise old saying in the reloading industry: "More cases have been ruined by amateur annealing than have been saved." I expect it is more true today than ever.

 

[Kaldor]

There is a wise old saying in the reloading industry: "More cases have been ruined by amateur annealing than have been saved." I expect it is more true today than ever.

I think the keyword here is "old". The information on annealing used to be a black art, even as little as 10 years ago. Now with the abundance of inexpensive annealers and lots of good documentation, its pretty hard to screw it up unless you really just are that simple.

 

[westernrover]

There is a wise old saying in the reloading industry: "More cases have been ruined by amateur annealing than have been saved." I expect it is more true today than ever.

How can a person ruin a case annealing? I've seen some people try, like Erik Cortina in that video posted earlier. I think a person would have to really desire to torch a case to hell before it was "ruined." I'm not claiming that ham-fisted, dunce-headed annealing practices are going to churn out benchrest-winning ammo, but it seems to me that if a person has the ability to produce good cartridges in every other respect, that for them to figure out annealing wouldn't be that hard. As for amateurs, I doubt annealing ranks anywhere near the practices that are easiest to screw up. I suspect that as long as the amateur does whatever they do to the cases consistently, then they'll be fine, pretty much no matter what their procedure is.

 

[Stevenvalleyky]

Youll see the case mouth and shoulder just start to flash orange. Thats when you know it good.
I do set my torches to heat at the shoulder/neck junction as the neck is thinner and always heats up quicker.
Its the same results you get with 750 degree Tempilaq which is where I started. Once I seen the results vs that, I can pretty easily dial in my annealer just by eye with the lights off.

I also now do my annealing with the lights off and just a small amount of background light to see to put the case in the drill and put my socket over the case. I use a tempil crayon for welding instead of the tempilaq paint but I rarely use it now since I can see the color change in the dim light.

 

[dobedo]

There is a wise old saying in the reloading industry: "More cases have been ruined by amateur annealing than have been saved." I expect it is more true today than ever.

Many people who anneal do not even know what temperature they are annealing at. Brass case annealing temperatures are between 500 and 800 degrees depending on case size. I anneal my cases on the lower end at exactly 600 degrees and have been doing it for 40+ years. As a person who use to be a high-pressure certified welder, we use temp sticks for preheat and post heat of metals. I use the 600 degree ones listed below takes out all the guess work.

https://www.grainger.com/product/TEMPIL-Temperature-Indicator-Stick-39DM64?opr=PDPRRDSP&analytics=dsrrItems_39DM55

 

[jmorris]

Why is the flame so far away from the brass? I want to put the hottest part of the flame right at the neck so I get maximum heat to the local area without giving it excess time for heat to conduct down to the base.

Better heat distribution flames are also not at maximum seettiigs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ciy6dwb290A is not a base getting too hot.

You could own your own and adjust it how you like it though. Unlike other annealers, you don't need to buy anything extra to anneal anything from .17 hornet too 50 BMG, just adjustments.

 

[AJC1]

Many people who anneal do not even know what temperature they are annealing at. Brass case annealing temperatures are between 500 and 800 degrees depending on case size. I anneal my cases on the lower end at exactly 600 degrees and have been doing it for 40+ years. As a person who use to be a high-pressure certified welder, we use temp sticks for preheat and post heat of metals. I use the 600 degree ones listed below takes out all the guess work.

https://www.grainger.com/product/TEMPIL-Temperature-Indicator-Stick-39DM64?opr=PDPRRDSP&analytics=dsrrItems_39DM55

Well there are numbers driven people and evidence based people. I have never checked the temprature of my lead pot despite having a Lyman guage. If a practice meets a need or solves a problem I consider it working or effective. I have not had a single split 30-30 since I started and had lots before.

 

[Laphroaig]

The first evidence of a red glow occurs at about 900*F. If you keep the case spinning and pay attention you can get consistent results, at least IMO.

If you are serious an AMP is the way to go. If you have a couple of hours and want to read about the science of annealing brass, get into the research pages on their website. Buried in their somewhere is a test where they measured the consistency of their anneal on various headstamps. Of what they tested, 3 passed their criteria: Petersen, Lapua, and Norma. They didn't want to embarrass the ones that failed so didn't name them. I'm still trying to process what that means.

 

[AJC1]

The first evidence of a red glow occurs at about 900*F. If you keep the case spinning and pay attention you can get consistent results, at least IMO.

If you are serious an AMP is the way to go. If you have a couple of hours and want to read about the science of annealing brass, get into the research pages on their website. Buried in their somewhere is a test where they measured the consistency of their anneal on various headstamps. Of what they tested, 3 passed their criteria: Petersen, Lapua, and Norma. They didn't want to embarrass the ones that failed so didn't name them. I'm still trying to process what that means.

At least those brands fit well with those in the market for a machine at that price point.

 

[mm93]

Doesn't dropping them into water quench/harden them? I thought the point was to get the brass malleable/soft again.

No, brass is not like ferrous metals, and it doesn't matter if they air cool, or drop into cool water. They'll still be soft. Dropping into water just speeds up the cooling and I can handle them immediately.

 

[mm93]

No. Quenching does not harden brass like it would steel. It has no consequence. It's neither beneficial nor harmful. I don't do it because it would require me to dry the brass. In fact, I often start with semi-dry brass from the wet tumbler and annealing helps me dry it, so I wouldn't want to drop it back in water.

Often times, water sticks in the flash hole. So I'll pick up a case, hold the neck to the flame for about 9 seconds while spinning it. I'll drop it into a stainless steel bowl and about a second later the heat will conduct into the web and around the flash hole and I'll hear a hissing sound and a puff of steam will erupt out of the case.

First thing I do with any fired cases is deprime them before annealing, sizing, cleaning, or anything else. I use a hand depriming tool to quickly pop out primers, so I don't have any issues.

 

[hoardingthemanual]

I have the amp annealer. It’s neat.

 

[lightman]

I have dipped them in molten lead, used a torch with them standing in water and finally bought a Giraud machine.

 

[westernrover]

First thing I do with any fired cases is deprime them before annealing, sizing, cleaning, or anything else. I use a hand depriming tool to quickly pop out primers, so I don't have any issues.

Yes. The water is trapped in the flash hole, not the primer. With the primer removed, the flash hole tends to hold water due to surface tension - like a bubble wand. It's not hard to blow it out with compressed air, but like I wrote, I tend to vaporize it when I anneal.

 

[mm93]

Yes. The water is trapped in the flash hole, not the primer. With the primer removed, the flash hole tends to hold water due to surface tension - like a bubble wand. It's not hard to blow it out with compressed air, but like I wrote, I tend to vaporize it when I anneal.

Never seen this with primers removed, but I don't get my cases hot enough when annealing for any moisture in the flash hole to sizzle. I'm more likely to under anneal than over anneal. That's one reason I drop cases in water as I don't want the heat to migrate towards the lower half of the cases.

 

[N555]

The most correct way to anneal with a torch is to heat the neck and shoulder till glowing red, then FL size them with a standard expander ball die that under sizes the necks then expands them to the final size with a ball.
If using the induction annealer I heat them orange hot since they come up to temperature in less than half the time compared to using a torch.
Heating the brass to 750f doesn't normally appear to do anything on low numbers of firings. Heating to 750f is probably the most inconsistent thing you can do. The brass will continue to get harder and harder with each firing and sizing, then a few cases will start randomly drop anywhere from 1 up to 4 Webber hardness points while others continue to get harder. This is after several firings and annealing to 750f and they are already very hard.
Assuming I can keep track of number of firings I usually don't anneal 1x fired new brass and just FL size them with neck sizer bushing or collet.