Deer Hunting, Heavy and slow or light and fast bullets?

beeenbag

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So not really talking about heavy for caliber or light for caliber in the same round, but more broad than that.

Within say, 200 yards, would you rather have something along the lines of a 45-70 with a 400g bullet moving around 2,000 fps, or a 6.5 PRC with a 140g bullet going 2,900 fps?

The 45-70 will have a good bit more energy at the muzzle than say the 6.5 prc, but would all that energy be used in a whitetail considering such a heavy bullet is going to exit with a lot of retained energy, where as a lighter faster bullet may put more of its energy into the deer?

This is not limited to the two examples that I used in the hypothetical scenario, but which school of thought do you tend to fall into, light and fast or heavy and slow?
 
I want to use a cartridge/caliber/bullet that is accurate to the likely ranges I'll be shooting and will give the penetration necessary to destroy vitals. A light and fast bullet has more margin for error at range estimation because it will have a longer maximum point blank zero where range estimation isn't a big concern. A heavy and slower bullet will depend a lot more on accurate range estimation. If one can't place the bullet where it needs to go accurately at whatever distance the game is, energy transfer doesn't make a bit of difference.

Those are my thoughts anyway.
 
Between my dad, brother, nephews and myself we have take deer on our property with bullets as heavy as 405 gr and as light at 90gr and velocities from 1200 fps to 3250 fps. They all get it done if you hit them in the right spot.
 
Within say, 200 yards, would you rather have something along the lines of a 45-70 with a 400g bullet moving around 2,000 fps, or a 6.5 PRC with a 140g bullet going 2,900 fps?
Either one would work given that criteria (within 200 yards), but I'll take the 6.5 PRC any day of the week and twice on Sunday for a couple of reasons: first, because I don't want to subject myself to the kind of recoil a 45-70 kicking out 400gr bullets at 2,000 fps is sure to deliver, and second, because I sight my deer rifles (I'm talking open country mule deer hunting) to hit dead on at 250 yards. I've been successfully killing mule deer for a long, long time (about 50 years), and while the great old 45-70 will work (heck, I've killed mule deer with a .50-caliber muzzle-loader shooting round balls) I prefer carrying a rifle that doesn't have such a rainbow-like trajectory just in case my range estimation is off a bit. ;)
 
I believe it largely depends on preferred shot placement. People who like the classic double lung shot, tight behind the shoulder, tend to prefer "light and fast", as they expand rapidly and do a great deal of damage. People who prefer the shoulder shot - or who want to confidently take raking shots which call for more-than-average penetration - tend to go for "slow and heavy".
 
Being from Jersey, slow and heavy is your only choice. Not that it matters much the woods and swamps are very dense, to the point that 75 yards is typically a very long shot. So my sabot firing muzzle loader, and Hornady SST firing slug gun have more legs than needed.
That being said I'd love to hunt the same woods with my 94 win in 30/30. Plenty enough power, less recoil, shorter, easier to cary and better handling than both. Would be about ideal
 
IMO the best overall choice for all North American big game (other than the BIG bears) is something in 7mm or .30 cal. with 150 to 165 gr. bullets. So by your parameters, a "tweener".
I've used "tweeners" (.30-06 and .30 caliber mags) for mule deer and elk for a long time. And for that matter, even the .30 caliber bullets I use are "tweeners." I used to think 150gr bullets were for mule deer, and 180gr bullets were for elk. Since the early '80s, I've used .30 caliber, 165gr "tweener" bullets for both species.
If I ever go on a really "BIG" bear hunt, I might consider using 200gr bullets in my .308 Norma Mag, but probably not. I have a beautiful pre-64 Winchester 70 .338 Win Mag in the safe that I've fantasized about taking to Alaska on a Kodiak bear hunt many times. And I'll probably use 250gr bullets in my .338, instead of 200gr bullets in my .308 Norma Mag if I ever to fulfill that fantasy. ;)
 
One of these would work quite well at 200 yards, though the 1800 tons for the turret would be a bit heavy

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Of course, if someone wanted to go old school, try this

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Well of course the bigger bullet (0.458") is going to make a bigger hole, all things being equal. I would not want to shoot a 400 grain bullet a 2000 fps as the recoil would be only slightly less than any of the big boys pictured above. According to this web page, Remington makes a 405 grain load which travels at 1600 fps, and it drops 16 inches at 200 yards. You better be right on in your elevation estimate to hit what you are aiming with a big, ballistically inefficient bullet. Of course, 40 to 60 pounds of recoil never creates flinch in the iron men who regularly use such guns to hunt rabbits.



I however am a wuss. I found myself kicking like a jackass somewhere between the third and fifth round shooting a 35 Whelen with 250 grain bullets off the bench. Shooting 225 bullets at 2400 fps, it took just a little longer before the recoil got to me. I truly did not like the scope eye piece in my eye ball either. Had to find a scope I could push a little more forward of the rifle.

I did once, get to shoot a Ruger #1 in 458 Win Mag. First shot was a surprise, the second was horrible. Two was enough fun for me.

No matter what the so called "one stop" power of the thing, a hit in the animals ass or guts will result in a wounded animal running off and dying a suffering death.

I do think that is why the big old black powder cartridges, such as the 45-110-535 were not as popular as the 38-55. Sure the big Sharps cartridge was a sure killer, but it was on both ends of the gun. And the trajectory was a rainbow.

I am sure it was a big splash when the 30-30 hit the market. Sort of like the Honda 750 four and the Honda Gold Wing did to the motorcycle community. Soon, after all the big bore stuff went on the ash heap of history as hunters were able to buy a lightweight, flat shooting, and low recoil rifle. (a 30-30 is not impressive by today's standards). Even though a 30-30 pushed a 170 grain bullet only at 2200 fps, the bullet expanded nicely. I have a WW2 era book by Van Ness who describes how reliably the 30-40 Krag bullet expanded. Hunting rounds pushed a 220 grain bullet around 2200 fps, but the bullet made a nice mushroom and penetrated all the way through.

For smaller calibers, bullet construction is so important, and also, it has to be a virtually impossible job to have one that will expand close up at high velocity (without exploding) and also have it expand at distance when velocities are under 1800 fps. An Elk hunter I talked to, he had a horrible experience with a brand of bullets in his 308 Win. He was shooting within 300 yards, and this brand (which I forgot), all the bullets exploded on the skin on the near side. None of them penetrated. That was not good. He later found a brand that went through the skin, and then expanded. That was much better.

early attempts to square that circle

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And for these small, lightweight bullets to expand, they have to hit something with enough resistance to make the bullet expand. A bud of mine was having zero luck with 165 Hornady SST's in his 308 Win. In the inky shadows of dusk, when he shot a deer behind the shoulder, the bullet went right through the ribs/lungs without expanding, the deer ran off, and he would find it 200 yards away the next morning, eaten by coyotes. He fixed that by aiming between the should and the neck. There is a lot more meat and bone there, and that worked great. Knocked them down, legs waving in the air, dead within seconds.

At the distances he is shooting, which is mostly 50 yards and under, I really think a 58 caliber musket ball would do better. I know guys who shot all sorts of animals with old smoke poles. If the bullet hit bone, the animal would tumble. It may be hard to believe, but Col. Louis A. LaGarde in his early 1900 book :Gunshot Injuries claimed Civil War weapons, with their big, soft, projectiles caused worse wound trauma than the 303 Brit, 8mm Mauser, 30-40 Krag service rifles.

The trajectory is like a rainbow, but 58 caliber Minies hit hard. And are surprisingly accurate. Bullet weight, 510 grains, velocity, around 800 fps.

FRf4J1d.jpg
 
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I tend to lean towards the slow and heavy side of things. Far to much concern is given to trying to get a bullet to dump 100%of its energy in the animal. With light and fast you're generally going to lose more meat.

That said, I think accuracy and good hits are far more important than slow and heavy, or fast and light.
 
You kill stuff by damaging internal organs and that can be accomplished many ways. If the bullet is heavy, and tough enough to reach internal organs either approach will work equally well.

Deer are small and easy to kill so it doesn't take a very heavy, nor tough bullet to reach the vitals at typical hunting ranges. Basically, anything works at typical ranges. Bullet choice becomes more important as the size of the animal and/or range increases.

And bullet weight in relation to diameter matters. Bullet length is important. A 400 gr 45 caliber bullet isn't particularly heavy for caliber. A 200 or 220 gr 30 caliber bullet will penetrate deeper on larger game. Move up to 500 gr 45 caliber bullets and the edge tips toward 45 caliber.

I've hunted game with cartridges as big as 45-70 and as small as 223. But generally, prefer to avoid the extreme ends of the spectrum. Any of the 26 caliber bullets with 140 gr or heavier bullets will take any game animal in North America and nothing bigger than 30 caliber is really needed. But if someone just likes to use bigger guns and can handle the recoil they work too.

I find it is more important to choose a cartridge that makes it easier to hit not just the animal but put the bullet in the vitals.
 
I have killed deer with 54 and 58 cal round balls at one end of the spectrum and 123 grain 6.5MM boat tails at the other. Both work just fine. Horses for courses. The round balls are great for short distance in river bottoms. The fast, ballistically efficient stuff is great for wide open spaces.
 
You kill stuff by damaging internal organs and that can be accomplished many ways. If the bullet is heavy, and tough enough to reach internal organs either approach will work equally well.

Deer are killed with .22LR's if shot properly, and can get away when shot with 300 Win Mags when not.
Hit them in the kill zone with a decent bullet and you will get your meat.

Choose your tool and use it as well as you can.......as my buddy Ed likes to say just as you start to do something....Dont "mess" it up!

All that needs to be said...I have taken many whitetail with 55gr 22-250 and a few with 240gr .44 mag. It's all in the shot...
 
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I think I may have failed at wording the original post how I intended. Obviously both schools of thought will get the job done, also shot placement will clearly be key. The question is more of "what do you prefer?" and maybe "why?".
 
I think I may have failed at wording the original post how I intended. Obviously both schools of thought will get the job done, also shot placement will clearly be key. The question is more of "what do you prefer?" and maybe "why?".

Now days I don't run anything but a 7-08 with 140gr pill and my pet load. 50 to 300 yds on a whitetail and a good shot no worries. I don't take a shot unless I'm confident in doing so. That's just my personal preference of a can do anything I need it to round. ymmv
 
Within say, 200 yards, would you rather have something along the lines of a 45-70 with a 400g bullet moving around 2,000 fps, or a 6.5 PRC with a 140g bullet going 2,900 fps?

Either, over another .223 for deer thread…
 
Heavy enough to break their shoulders and drop them where they stand. Saves a lot of walking and the tragedy of a lost or wounded deer.
 
Heavy enough to break their shoulders and drop them where they stand. Saves a lot of walking and the tragedy of a lost or wounded deer.
 
Just about all Centerfire Rifles cartridges can kill deer at 200 yards if you do your job. Don't over think it. 45-70 you can shoot lighter bullets and get out there with them and with practice a 300gr, 405gr will work great too.
 
What ever you choose, if you practice and shoot it enough to know it really good, it will serve you well. Well beyond 200 yards !
 
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