Deer Hunting, what is your minimum cartridge?

[marksman13]

So, the truth is, you really don't care, you don't go look so you really don't know for sure...

Personally, I care enough to go find out, so I can make a better educated decision than that... Then again, I don't shoot anything to keep the coyotes and buzzards fed...

DM

If that is all you took from my post, I can't help you. Pigs are worse than rats down here, and we treat them as such. As I said before, most of the pigs we shoot never make it out of the bean fields, and the cartridge used seems to have no real affect the on the percentage of pigs that run off to die in the swamp. Looking at wounds on the pigs we do skin out has given me great confidence in the 5.56 as long as shot placement is what it should be, and if your bullet doesn't hit anything vital, it doesn't matter if they were shot with a 50 BMG.

Since the original post is about deer hunting and not about pigs, allow me to reiterate that in 20 years of deer hunting, I have never had a deer take a single step after a high shoulder shot with a 5.56.

 

[MCgunner]

The very first btips were meant to be varmint bullets, then folks figgered they'd kill everything, when everything didn't die, they whined, Nosler made a hunting btip, and now here we are. I'll add that heavy for caliber (s.d.) btips will OBVIOUSLY fare better for game at close ranges, as a 125 with an impact velocity > 2800fps will never penetrate as well as a 150 <2900 fps. In my .243 I've sploded 90s on targets at 50 yds that made it VERY obvious that the design matches the warning on the box of factory ammo at cabelas that it is intended for 100 yds or more. The sst and vmax aren't terribly dissimilar, but the taper helps the sst hold together an extra couple inches. Bullet construction has greatly changed definitions of minimum cartridges, I'd be okay with a 53 Barnes .223, but not as far out as I'd go with the hotter rounds, on the same note, I'd trust it more than a btip with a > 2900 impact velocity.

Mmm, well, since I'm pushing it at 2800 fps at the muzzle, I guess I'm golden. I've killed deer at 25 yards to 200 with it and I've killed hogs from 50-100 yards. I've killed coyotes quite dead (not that hard to kill) at a full 370 yards. Everything seems to fall dead with it, so I'm happy. It's a very accurate bullet, too.

 

[T.R.]

My minimum is the 44 MAG cartridge fired from my modern lever action carbine. Accuracy, lethal performance, and ammo selection meet my needs.

TR

 

[SamT1]

id say in common practice a 223 with quality bullets is the minimum practical hunting round for deer size stuff. Like marksman says if you hit in the vitals most stuff is pretty equal. I’ve liquified an entire body cavity with a 270 that went in right behind the last rib and out the center of his chest, and seen that deer run hard for 50 yards.
I prefer the 308 with sst or nosler BT bullets. High percentage DRT animals of all species even with sub par shot placement on running pigs and coyotes and stuff. I like the gratification of seeing my pigs die, I quit the 223 because I know I was killing them eventually, but it’s alot more fun to stack them up. I was only dropping the first shot pig with 223where placement was good.

 

[FL-NC]

My last 4 deer were taken with 223- using the 75 gr Hornady BTHP. Hornady states that this is a match/varmint round (and it is incredibly accurate- as accurate as the Black Hills 77 grain MK 262). I have seen what this 75 grain round does to people, and in terminal performance as well as accuracy, it has outdone every other FMJ or OTM round I have ever seen. On the deer, it resulted in 3 DRT and one runner that went less than 50 yards and layed down.

 

[mcb]

I am surprised by the number of participants in the thread willing to use 233/556. I don't think I would, despite using firearms with lower muzzle energies than 556. Mostly because it doesn't appeal to me as a big game cartridge more than any objection to its performance.

 

[SoonerMedic]

So, the truth is, you really don't care, you don't go look so you really don't know for sure...

Personally, I care enough to go find out, so I can make a better educated decision than that... Then again, I don't shoot anything to keep the coyotes and buzzards fed...

DM

Just to be the devil's advocate, we don't (from what I gather) deem archery unethical. It's a given that your deer will run after a fantastic shot. Even hitting the heart gives them time to run sometimes 50-100 yards depending on the resiliency of the deer.

 

[DM~]

Just to be the devil's advocate, we don't (from what I gather) deem archery unethical. It's a given that your deer will run after a fantastic shot. Even hitting the heart gives them time to run sometimes 50-100 yards depending on the resiliency of the deer.

Who is "we"???

I don't use "deer wounders", I don't even like them here on my place...

DM

 

[MidRoad]

Just to be the devil's advocate, we don't (from what I gather) deem archery unethical. It's a given that your deer will run after a fantastic shot. Even hitting the heart gives them time to run sometimes 50-100 yards depending on the resiliency of the deer.

My dad hit a button buck a few years ago with my 270, didn't see it behind the big doe and he must have pulled the shot. Ribbed the bottom of it's chest apart,tore up the lungs (they were hanging out of the chest) and the little guy still went 75 yards. Resilient critters sometimes. He couldn't have been more than 100lbs.

 

[MCgunner]

Who is "we"???

I don't use "deer wounders", I don't even like them here on my place...

DM

In these thick woods, I prefer rifles to sticks and strings and I can't trust my weak eye with a traditional bow, but I've taken a buck so far with my crossbow. He ran about 50 yards and collapsed. Lots of blood to trail. I will continue to use a crossbow for the primary reason that it gets me out on the tree stand early in the year and, in this county, does are legal only in bow season and they do need to be thinned in this area. Can't get a doe permit on my meager little place, have to have at least 50 acres. The local wildlife management asso. hands out doe permits, but I don't belong to 'em. Tried to join, never heard back from the guy.

I've got nothing against "deer wounders" so long as they leave enough blood for me to follow. The crossbow leaves plenty. I've not found that to be the case with small caliber rifles like .223, but I don't have a huge data base on that. Woods being as thick as they are around here, though, it's better, I'll admit, to drop 'em where they stand and the .308 does that with a shoulder hit. I did kill one last year with the .223, but I'm going back to my .308 next season, or maybe my .50 caliber front stuffers for variety.

 

[Skoghund]

I've never worried if a deer runs after I've shot it. The deer is dead on its feet. If possible i take a heart lung shot on deer. This most of the time results in the deer running anything from 10-100 mtrs. In all my years of shooting deer, and I've shot into the thousands i can only recall maybe 3 wounded deer caused buy my pilot error. I've never lost a deer dead or wounded. I do have a very good trained tracking dog Though.

 

[marksman13]

Who is "we"???

I don't use "deer wounders", I don't even like them here on my place...

DM

"We" likely refers to a very large population of hunters that partake in archery hunting as well as rifle hunting.

 

[Gtscotty]

The weakest cartridge I've used on deer is either the 7.62x39 or .243 depending on how you look at it. Personally, I think the .243 is a step or two up, but that's just my assessment. I've also used a 6.8 SPC, but consider it superior to the x39 and probably at least equal to the .243 within a few hundred yards.

If I ever move back to the south I really want to build a suppressed .44 mag rifle for subsonic heavy bullet deer use.

 

[mcb]

The weakest cartridge I've used on deer is either the 7.62x39 or .243 depending on how you look at it. Personally, I think the .243 is a step or two up, but that's just my assessment. I've also used a 6.8 SPC, but consider it superior to the x39 and probably at least equal to the .243 within a few hundred yards.

If I ever move back to the south I really want to build a suppressed .44 mag rifle for subsonic heavy bullet deer use.

I am going to do 300BO suppressed for at least part of this year (assuming my stamp arrives in time). I am looking for a good 45 caliber rifle rated suppressor to suppress my 450 Bushmaster. If I do it right I could suppress my M92 with the same suppressor.

 

[CraigC]

For me it's the .250Savage but only with 100gr Barnes bullets.

I am going to do 300BO suppressed for at least part of this year (assuming my stamp arrives in time). I am looking for a good 45 caliber rifle rated suppressor to suppress my 450 Bushmaster. If I do it right I could suppress my M92 with the same suppressor.

The Silencerco Hybrid is perfect for that. I have one in NFA jail as we speak. I have the same plan. I'm using a TiRant .45 on my .300BO but plan on using the Hybrid on a Ruger .450BM.

If I ever move back to the south I really want to build a suppressed .44 mag rifle for subsonic heavy bullet deer use.

Don't even need heavy bullets for that. Standard 240-250gr bullets will exit on most deer.

 

[MidRoad]

I am going to do 300BO suppressed for at least part of this year (assuming my stamp arrives in time). I am looking for a good 45 caliber rifle rated suppressor to suppress my 450 Bushmaster. If I do it right I could suppress my M92 with the same suppressor.

That would be cool as hell.

 

[marksman13]

I am going to do 300BO suppressed for at least part of this year (assuming my stamp arrives in time). I am looking for a good 45 caliber rifle rated suppressor to suppress my 450 Bushmaster. If I do it right I could suppress my M92 with the same suppressor.

I'm running a Hybrid on my 458 SOCOM with 500 grain Maker subs and it is devastating on pigs. That's it on the right.

 

[gdcpony]

Smallest bullet I have used is a .224 55gr SP from Hornady. Held up well out of a .223.
Smallest case I have used is my 1911 in 45ACP. It had a 230gr HP in it though.

There are many myths surrounding what it takes to kill a deer. My daughter used a 35# compound and it passed through and died in 30yds. I take a shot with a 20ga SST at the same yardage same size deer and I tracked it for hours. The day prior that same gun/ammo took one at 260yds that fell and slid down the hill dead. I have seen deer that were hit with 12ga run like the devil was behind them and when we got them the hit was a good one. Seen the .257 Roberts (.243 on steroids) drop them at 500+ and the .243 at 350yds DRT. Nearly point blank with a muzzlestuffer and when the smoke cleared the deer had left nothing but a blood trail.

I am sure that we can all recount times when either the gun should have killed them right there, but didn't while another time you expected to track forever do find the deer dead in a few steps. Too many variables to count in and say "this will work, but this won't" in the field.

 

[.308 Norma]

Too many variables to count in and say "this will work, but this won't" in the field.

I agree. But there are definitely not "too many variables to count in and say 'this will work, but this won't' in the field" when it comes to discussions on internet message forums.
But those same discussions have been going on since long before anyone ever heard of personal computers, let alone the internet. Heck, back in the '60's, when I was a deer hunting crazed kid (I'm 70 now) I listened to those same discussions in George G.s used furniture store down by the river. My dad, George, and a handful of George's other cronies would sit around, discussing the merits and shortfalls of “aught sixes” (not twenty-five aught sixes in those days) “three-oh-eights,” “thudy-thudies,” “thudy-fordies,” “two-sevendies,” and “good ol’ seven mms” (7mm Mausers back then – not 7mm magnums).
I never did contribute to the discussions, I felt privileged enough to just sit and listen to those "old" guys talk about deer and elk hunting. Besides, I got to have my own cup of coffee. But I so much wanted to tell them about the then new Winchester Model 70 "Westerner," 264 Winchester Magnum I'd seen in the catalogs. And I wanted to tell them about the Winchester Model 70 "African," 458 Winchester Magnum I'd seen in those same catalogs. I wanted to tell them, "If an aught six will 'knock a deer down,' a 458 Winchester Magnum will 'knock him down' even better."
Of course back then, neither I, nor those "old" guys knew the first thing about ballistic coefficients, sectional densities, or even handloading for that matter. But those "old" guys did alright. They're all gone now, but I suspect they killed plenty of deer, elk, antelope and moose without ever knowing how much better the sectional density of a 6.5mm bullet is compared to a bullet from one of their "aught-sixes."

 

[SoonerMedic]

"We" likely refers to a very large population of hunters that partake in archery hunting as well as rifle hunting.

Thank you. I was just saying "we" as a collective. You know, hunters in general?

 

[gdcpony]

I agree. But there are definitely not "too many variables to count in and say 'this will work, but this won't' in the field" when it comes to discussions on internet message forums.
But those same discussions have been going on since long before anyone ever heard of personal computers, let alone the internet. Heck, back in the 60's, when I was a deer hunting crazed kid (I'm 70 now) I listened to those same discussions in George G.s used furniture store down by the river. My dad, George, and a handful of George's other cronies would sit around, discussing the merits and shortfalls of “aught sixes” (not twenty-five aught sixes in those days) “three-oh-eights,” “thudy-thudies,” “thudy-fordies,” “two-sevendies,” and “good ol’ seven mms” (7mm Mausers back then – not 7mm magnums).
I never did contribute to the discussions, I felt privileged enough to just sit and listen to those "old" guys talk about deer and elk hunting. Besides, I got to have my own cup of coffee. But I so much wanted to tell them about the then new Winchester Model 70 "Westerner," 264 Winchester Magnum I'd seen in the catalogs. And I wanted to tell them about the Winchester Model 70 "African," 458 Winchester Magnum I'd seen in those same catalogs. I wanted to tell them, "If an aught six will 'knock a deer down,' a 458 Winchester Magnum will 'knock him down' even better."
Of course back then, neither I, nor those "old" guys knew the first thing about ballistic coefficients, sectional densities, or even handloading for that matter. But those "old" guys did alright. They're all gone now, but I suspect they killed plenty of deer, elk, antelope and moose without ever knowing how much better the sectional density of a 6.5mm bullet is compared to a bullet from one of their "aught-sixes."

I have not your age, sir. Though maybe in a bit of irony my name is George. In another little bit is how many of those are in my collection! My mention of the Bob (.257 Roberts) might have let you in on that. I still hold a ton of love for the much ignored "mid-length" action rounds. Imagine the 6.5 Swede, 7x57, 6mm Rem and .257 all in a discussion these days! Many younger or less educated hunters would never realize how lethal they are. How the 7x57 parented the '06 via the '03 would drive them to foam at the mouth.

I know we have access to a world more information than we used to and better ways to test. Only 20ish years ago when I started loading my own, who had heard of a ladder test? Chronographs were treasured possessions only a few had. And no one even checked the BC of their bullets or if they did ignored through not knowing the difference in it based on the velocity it was moving at. We didn't have the calculators on our phones (wait phones in the field???) either. We can now make much better decisions than what we did. We can choose what should work.

This is all great, but it leaves out the target. Those have not changed. Look at the list I presented. Those aren't random stories. Those are deer I have shot or helped track or was present for the shot. I don't think anyone here would disagree that a 12ga slug to the chest at 40yds should kill a deer right then or at worst a few yards later. All the math and ballistics tests go out the window when that deer gets it adrenaline flowing as it dies or the shot passes through between ribs rather than breaking them for some reason. Discussion and expansion designs pointed at low speed vs high speed fade away when the 45-70 enters the discussion. Expansion? Who needs it? Still saw a deer run a 100yds full bore after a frontal hit that took everything back to the bladder (trust me I gutted it for the kid). Sectional density, BC, and everything else becomes moot when the deer says "I want to die running no matter how much damage I took."

These are the variables I speak of and the ones none of us can control. Yes, we can make the best shots we can, and pick placement in accordance with what we are using (I far-side shoulder shoot my powerful rounds and go behind the shoulder with bows and lesser ones personally), but the deer decides- within reason- how much spunk it will have when it's hit. That is why I hate it when guys expect not to have to track and blame the gun/round when a deer doesn't drop DRT. No gun will drop an animal every single time right then. Well, maybe a 105mm round, but those are pricey to shoot and heavy too.

 

[MCgunner]

Only 20ish years ago when I started loading my own, who had heard of a ladder test? Chronographs were treasured possessions only a few had.

Hmm, bought my first chronograph in the 80s, over 30 years ago. That's when they finally came affordable to the common man, under 100 bucks for a "Shooting Chrony". .

 

[gdcpony]

Hmm, bought my first chronograph in the 80s, over 30 years ago. That's when they finally came affordable to the common man, under 100 bucks for a "Shooting Chrony". .

In my area $100 was a good bit into the 90's. I knew one guy with one. He owned a gun shop and taught me how to make longer shots on groundhogs because he knew my family ate them.

He provided me with my copies of the now defunct Varmint Hunter magazines to read. I miss that rag.

I guess you are right though. That is almost 30yrs now. Dang I'm old!

 

[scotjute]

.20 gage # 3 buckshot. Have used it effectively to 40 yds. Not my preferred weapon/caliber but it does work within its range.
First deer ever killed was with .30 M1 carbine. I do not use it anymore. Went away to college and my father used it for about 2 yrs and then quit. Said he was tired of tracking animals thru the swamps for a mile before finding them.
Smallest rifle caliber I use is 6.5 x 55.

 

[WestKentucky]

.256 Winchester magnum, .357 mag, and .410 slugs all have weak points but have done well for me.

.256 is super light and plenty fast, the hp bullet explodes on impact leaving a grapefruit sized ball of mush. Hit the ribs and the deer falls down.

The .357 from a 6” revolver has been plenty several times for me. Deep penetration and a good bullet leave a mangled heart or lungs. Deer runs a little ways but not too far.

.410 works like .357 but the hole is bigger. More drop at range and less accuracy, keep shots close.