defending against a BG who already has the drop?

[ctrs]

I've seen some discussions on whether it is a good idea to draw against an assailant who already has the drop. The arguments are:

Pros

1. About 14% of criminals will shoot their victims, even if they comply. Being a sheep doesn't help.

2. If the guy has you at gunpoint and thinks you're compliant, you could catch him off-guard.

3. A lot of BG's won't want to escalate the situation to murder because they
know police will be more involved.

Cons

1. Action beats reaction every time, save for superhuman reflexes. To shoot the bad guy, you will have to clear leather, switch the safety off, take aim and then shoot, whereas all the BG has to do is pull the trigger.

2. Complying is sometimes (but not always) the best way to deescalate the situation.

So what would be the best course of action in such a scenario? I can think of the following:

1. Comply and hope for the best.

2. Pretend to comply and then draw.

3. Warn the guy by saying something along the lines of, "You have two seconds to get that gun out of my face." A dumb criminal might think you have something up your sleeve, but then again, you might just annoy him even further.

4. Try to disarm him.

5. Try to knock his gun away, and then make a run for it.

Personally, I think it would depend on the circumstances. If the bad guy is merely demanding my belongings, I would choose (1). But if the BG was trying to, say, kidnap a family member, then I'd probably try (2) or (4). Thoughts?

Another question: this reminds me, a lot of criminals shot by police get shot after pulling a gun on a cop. The fact that more armed criminals are killed by police than the other way around suggests that the police have certain ways of dealing with these situations. What might these be?

I can think of the following:

1. Most BG's are less willing to shoot a police officer (due to the heavy penalties involved) than the other way around.

2. Bullet-resistant vests.

3. Backup officers - it's hard for one BG to hold multiple people at gunpoint.

4. If there is a distance between the officer and the BG, the officer can take cover and use his training to his advantage.

Am I missing anything else?

 

[Sam1911]

1. About 14% of criminals will shoot their victims, even if they comply. Being a sheep doesn't help.

Curious where that statistic came from.

IF true, it would actually argue quite forcefully for remaining compliant. That would be giving you almost 9:1 odds that you'll escape unharmed (or at least un-shot) if you comply. As everything about surviving a hostile encounter involves working probability in your favor, NOTHING will give you odds nearly that good, except staying home that day! So, again IF true, "being a sheep" would be about the most positive thing you could do.

Trying to draw on him sure isn't going to move your survival odds to 10:1 in favor!

2. If the guy has you at gunpoint and thinks you're compliant, you could catch him off-guard.

You should watch a few of SouthNarc's videos. (www.shivworks.com) He trains this kind of stuff and his videos of how such things go are very enlightening.

3. A lot of BG's won't want to escalate the situation to murder because they know police will be more involved.

Maybe. Hard to say, and impossible to know which kind of bad guy you'll face. Trying to keep your head and evaluate how the interaction is going (is it escalating? Is he getting what he wants and looking to his escape? Is he a "process predator" looking to move you somewhere to do something very nasty?).

1. Action beats reaction every time, save for superhuman reflexes. To shoot the bad guy, you will have to clear leather, switch the safety off, take aim and then shoot, whereas all the BG has to do is pull the trigger.

That can work both ways. He has his gun out, but he has NOT decided to shoot you right this minute. Explosive action on your part (preferrably something faster than trying to clear your garment and unholster) may be faster than his "reaction" to reaquire you and shoot. Pick your moment carefully.

2. Pretend to comply and then draw.

Your draw is rarely the fastest action you could take. Maybe a strike or a disarm technique. Maybe a combination of motions to lock up his weapon hand and then draw.

3. Warn the guy by saying something along the lines of, "You have two seconds to get that gun out of my face." A dumb criminal might think you have something up your sleeve, but then again, you might just annoy him even further.

NO. There is a whole study to the power games and verbal "judo" going on in a robbery/mugging. Trying to bluff down, trick, or warn off a violent person is almost sure to fail -- and might make them explosively angry because you're challenging their dominant position in the encounter. Do not telegraph your intended action. Try to work through the situation without any violence -- but if you have to act violently to save your life, do so explosively and without warning.

4. Try to disarm him.

That's likely to be part of the fight you'll have on your hands if you do act. At the very least, controlling the weapon, which is not easy to do when attempting to access and bring to bear your own.

5. Try to knock his gun away, and then make a run for it.

Probably not going to end well. IF you can do it, that's great, but you really only get one shot and it had better be solid.

There are lots of SouthNarc vids on YouTube you can watch to get an idea of how some of these sorts of encounters can go. Here's one with a hitch-hiker scenario: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0rCdTqZFyk&feature=related

 

[ctrs]

I think I read it from another post from a few years ago. I don't remember an authoritative source for it, though, so don't quote me on it.

 

[Loosedhorse]

it is a good idea to draw against an assailant who already has the drop.

Like almost everything else in the use of lethal force in self-defense, it is a good idea only if you feel you have no other choice to keep you alive.

It is often said of knife fights, you can depend on one thing: you will get cut. Drawing against someone who's looking at you, waiting for you to draw? You're going to get shot.

Might be best to wait for the right moment, if you can. And maybe the best gun to draw is his: if he's close enough and you have the training, take the gun away.

Bad situation with bad choices. If I can get out of it by handing over my wallet and watching him leave, I'll do that.

4. Try to disarm him.

5. Try to knock his gun away, and then make a run for it.

You don't "try" to take the gun away--you take it away. Since it might be the last thing on this Earth that you ever do, have some commitment behind it.

 

[dayhiker]

Bad situation with bad choices. If I can get out of it by handing over my wallet and watching him leave, I'll do that.

Agree 100%. Maybe that makes me a sheep?

If I am 99.99% sure I am going to die anyway, and that depends on my gut reaction to the situation, I'll fight with everything I have fists,feet,teeth,fingernails,knife, or gun.

 

[pat701]

Get your pistol out and take your chance, i assume i would be shoot anyway.

 

[pbearperry]

Take the wallet out and throw it a good distance and run in the oposite direction.Most of the time the BG has more interest in the money than you.But if you draw,move to the BG's right quickly if he's right handed.He may jerk the trigger and miss you entirely.Then buy new underwear.

 

[hardknocks!]

Hmmm

Although i am not a highly trained individual i believe that would be the key to dealing with this type of situation.
A few friends of mine spend alot of time training all sorts of different situations like this. (with professionals) i believe they have a much better chance because of the training.
I have thought of this senario and many others and i plan to get some more training.
A certain type of person would turn this around on the bad guy before he knew what was happening i believe.
we must not fail to plan.
good luck to all

 

[Deaf Smith]

I suggest ctrs that if you intend to beat the drop you have better be so fast you go back in time.

Think about it. If your gun is concealed how fast can you draw from concealment?

Sure if the guy is an idiot and can be distracted you might pull it off, but if not you have better be mighty fast and/or lucky.

Deaf

 

[ctrs]

I suggest ctrs that if you intend to beat the drop you have better be so fast you go back in time.

Unfortunately, the only way to do that is to draw faster than the speed of light, and it would require an infinite amount of energy to accelerate an object with mass to light speed.

Also, the reason I asked the last question was because of this article:

According to a police account at the time of the shooting, the officer felt a handgun in Minter's waistband while the two were struggling. Minter pointed the gun in Galios' direction, police said, and the officer drew his weapon and fatally shot Minter.

This guy point a gun at the cop before said cop drew his piece and returned fire. But if the guy in this case saw the officer draw his weapon, he would likely have fired to save himself, but somehow didn't. In any case, the officer is extremely lucky to be alive.

 

[xXxplosive]

Sorry, but I really miss Paul's comments not being here to chime in...Geeeezzzz.
Man he had great technical insight in these matters too......Sorry again.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

1. Action beats reaction every time, save for superhuman reflexes. To shoot the bad guy, you will have to clear leather, switch the safety off, take aim and then shoot, whereas all the BG has to do is pull the trigger.

You seem to be saying two different things here and it doesn't make sense. If action beats reaction, then you should be able to draw and shoot the bad guy before he pulls the trigger. Never mind all those steps to getting your gun out and on target. Of course, that is the problem with the claim. Reaction beats action all the time. In fact, a lot of unarmed defensive combat is successful by the fact that the defensive reaction to the offensive action is made possible the defensive reaction being started and completed before the offensive action is completed.

Action beats reaction only when reaction cannot be completed before the action is completed. No doubt that the action has the advantage of starting before the reaction, but that does not mean that the action will necessarily beat reaction.

 

[qwert65]

I may be wrong but I think I read somewhere that bill Jordan would pull a 22 snub from concealment and fire while a cocked gun was on him(and they knew he would try and draw)

 

[WardenWolf]

Deflect and draw. Deflect his gun to the side with a quick sweep of your arm while drawing your own and stepping in to prevent him from easily bringing his gun to bear. Practice, and know when the time for such a move is.

Otherwise, wait until he is distracted. He's most likely trying to rob you, not murder you. Wait until he's distracted by shiny things and then nail him. Possibly spill some change to create a distraction, drop something while you're getting your wallet out, etc. Or just wait for something to draw his attention.

 

[MachIVshooter]

1. Action beats reaction every time, save for superhuman reflexes. To shoot the bad guy, you will have to clear leather, switch the safety off, take aim and then shoot, whereas all the BG has to do is pull the trigger.

That can work both ways. He has his gun out, but he has NOT decided to shoot you right this minute. Explosive action on your part (preferrably something faster than trying to clear your garment and unholster) may be faster than his "reaction" to reaquire you and shoot. Pick your moment carefully.

^^^^^^^^
This.

The BG will have to process what you're doing and react to it. This will likely take at least a half second, plus whatever time his actual reaction takes.

I personally always figured if someone was holding me at gunpoint at contact distance, trying to draw my own weapon would probably not be the best choice. Getting their muzzle pointed elswhere and delivering a debilitating blow simultaneously is what I've trained to do; Control their gun hand with your weak hand, uppercut with the stong hand. Not necessarily a good tactic for everyone, but I'm decent sized and quite fit, so that's my plan. Not too many people are unphased by a tooth-braking, bare-knuckle hit to the bottom of the jaw.

If it's not contact distance, I'd have to evaluate the situation before acting.

 

[Doghandler]

Yah, distance will guide the situation. I don't know the exact details of what I will do but I have a repertoire and I'm confident that I will be able to pull something useful and effective 'out of the hat' so to speak.

 

[mljdeckard]

For me, it will completely depend on my assessment of the bad guy. Does he look like he knows what he is doing? Does he look like he's handling his gun in a way that indicates training and practice? Is he acting like someone who is very desperate? Is he trying to do three things at once? Does he look like he would just as soon shoot me as not?

If I decided to make a move, I would likely wait for a moment when he appeared distracted, move laterally to the outside of his strong side, and draw as I moved.

 

[Sam1911]

Take the wallet out and throw it a good distance and run in the oposite direction.

This is something that gets brought up every time we discuss situations like this. (Probably has been discussed enough that the bad guys have heard of it too... )

The problem may be that such a deliberate move can be seen as a huge sign of hostility/disrespect. The robber is there doing his job (for lack of a better word) and he wants it to go his way. He's probably a lot better at, and more accustomed to, robbing people than you are at being robbed. He's got a script of how the scene's supposed to go down. If you refuse to play ball his way, you'd better be ready for instant action, because you stepping out of the lines is going to ramp up his anger/hostility to "11."

I've discussed this with guys to do a lot of scenario training. When playing the aggressor they've had numerous defenders try this and report that (even playing a character) it makes them see red. The common response is sticking their Sims-gun in the guy's face and yelling, "Oh yeah? PICK IT UP (blank)-(blank)!"

That's not to say this won't work. Maybe, sometimes, in the right circumstances. But don't expect a bad guy to follow the wallet like a golden retriever after a stick. Folks who've studied felons say that, yes, a lot of violent encounters are primarily about getting your valuables, but there's always a component of dominance and control to the situation and if you challenge the violent actor and don't play by his script it can turn emotional, vindictive, and lethal instantly.

So, if you're going to use such techniques, do so smartly and in concert with a fully developed plan.

 

[Loosedhorse]

The problem may be that such a deliberate move can be seen as a huge sign of hostility/disrespect

Maybe. Of course, he might take your going for your gun the same way.

But your point is taken. If I'm giving up my wallet, it's to give up my wallet--not to distract him from my draw. However, giving him a choice between the wallet he wants lying on the ground and a running-away target? One of the clearest reasons that might not work is if his goal wasn't the wallet at all, but you.

 

[psyopspec]

And maybe the best gun to draw is his: if he's close enough and you have the training, take the gun away.

This bears repeating. Internet forums, for whatever reason, tend to focus on mindset and toolset without giving skillset it's proper due.

If you read down to that post and realized you didn't have the training, ask yourself why not. There are plenty of excuses to let training drop off ($, time, distance being the big 3). Fair enough if 1 of those apply to you. But what about picking up an airsoft pistol, a buddy, and a good training video (Youtube is free and a great place to start).

I don't know how that encounter will go for me. I certainly don't know exactly how it will end for you. The one thing I'm confident in is that my sig line will have something to do with the outcome.

 

[Sam1911]

Of course, he might take your going for your gun the same way.

Yes -- and I am in no way saying that resistance is futile. If you are evaluating the situation with a clear head and it looks like you're about to die, explosive action certainly may be the best path. As you said before, you've got to commit to that action, and act with overwhelming violence until you prevail/escape or are killed.

Some guys have (in scenario work) tried dropping the wallet and waiting for the bad guy to reach for it as their opening to draw. The "smart" bad guy doesn't play that game and now he's ramping up his emotional energy. He demanded your wallet, but instead of giving it to him you threw it on the ground. He knows WHY you did (he's a crimnal, not a simpleton) -- the scene has changed from taking a wallet from some mark to punishing a punk who just tried to "dis" him.

If you're going to "dis" him, go BIG -- full-on caveman-style until he's either disarmed, fleeing, or you've expired.

 

[Hoppes Love Potion]

I always start singing. One guy just put his knife away and ran. Really, I'm not that bad of a singer - but my singing wasn't in his plan. It was a Leonard Cohen song...long story.

 

[Hardtarget]

I live in Nashville, Tn. Just this week two guys tried to rob a man in his apartment parking lot. At least one was armed. The victim managed to draw and shoot(kill) one robber. The other ran off. I don't have a link to local news.I'd say he was very lucky. Almost forgot....these two had robbed another man,at another apt.complex, a short time earlier.

So, I guess it can happen, if everything works PERFECTLY. Probably wouldn't happen that way for me.

Mark

 

[Trunk Monkey]

I would think the fact that so few people (comparativly) carry concealed hand guns would work in your favor because it would be the last thing the bad guy would expect.

The last time some one pulled I knife on me I punched him in the nose and that kind of ended things

 

[MedWheeler]

Way too many possibilities of scenarios to cover on an internet discussion but, in a nutshell: 1) Offer perceived compliance. 2) Remain in close proximity to the gunman; if you move away slowly, he'll follow, and running will probably just get you shot in the back. 3) Keep your hands up in front of you, palms facing him, in apparent compliance. This allows you to have them near his weapon. 4) Constantly analyze the situation's progress, watching for any chances to divert his weapon from you, or relieve him of it. If such a chance presents itself, your response will depend on several factors, including position, type of weapon, which hand it's in, and your own training.