Destructive Devices: How About a Form 1 for a Pipe Bomb?

[xquercus]

Recently, I was involved in a discussion whether or not one might be able to make a legal pipe bomb on an approved Form 1 (including tax). The available information on the practical ownership of pipe bombs, mines, grenades, poison gas, and other *explosive* destructive devices is quite lacking. In fact, I think I've only seen one actual explosive destructive device for sale -- a Soviet style RPG (grenade plus launcher) that somehow made itself into the States -- asking price $14k if memory serves.

By pipe bomb, I simply mean a length of threaded pipe, two end caps, filled with smokeless powder and lit by means of green safety fuse. Could one legally make and possess such a device through the Form 1 process?

Also, how do people generally store explosive destructive devices. Locked plastic cases are fine for suppressors and machine guns but do people who collect RPGs and mines simply store them in plastic cases in their closest? A locked glass display case in the study? It seems to me that such items might best be stored in a properly constructed magazine rather than the home but I confess complete ignorance when it comes to such things.

Anyone have any experience in this area?

 

[steveno]

I hope you are kidding but I would imagine it would be denied and you could expect a visit from the atf anyway

 

[crazy-mp]

I am not commenting on the pipe bomb part of your post, but most of the people I know who have destructive devices have walk in vaults and they store them in there, I have never seen a actual bomb, but I have seen hand grenades and rocket launchers.

 

[xquercus]

I hope you are kidding but I would imagine it would be denied and you could expect a visit from the atf anyway

I'm absolutely not kidding. While I have no intention of constructing a pipe bomb my questions are entirely sincere. My knowledge regarding explosive destructive devices is pretty minimal and I'm simply trying to understand how the ATF handles them. I recall reading about folks who claim to make/reload 40mm grenades via Form 1 (and use them). It seems to make sense as the ATF considers a 40mm grenade to be an NFA firearm. If one can make a 40mm grenade, why not a pipe bomb?

I'm simply trying to understand the legalities of these types of firearms. These are entirely legitimate questions.

If "pipe bomb" in not a politically correct word, then change it to "grenade". The reason I used "pipe bomb" in my post is because the materials are readily available and requires very little skill. Making a grenade might imply the use of materials which are more difficult to obtain which makes the question more abstract and easy to dismiss. People are likely to dismiss the question with statements like "good luck getting the explosive" or "good luck getting the fuse". If we discuss something simply constructed like a "pipe bomb" instead of a "grenade" it becomes a very possible scenario.

 

[xquercus]

I am not commenting on the pipe bomb part of your post

I guess I struck a nerve here and I apologize. Feel free to substitute "pipe bomb" with "grenade". The question then becomes, can one make a grenade by completing Form 1.

most of the people I know who have destructive devices have walk in vaults and they store them in there, I have never seen a actual bomb, but I have seen hand grenades and rocket launchers.

Really? I find that quite amazing. I understand that regulated explosives and even "non-consumer" fireworks generally require storage in an ATF approved magazine yet hand grenades seem to not have that requirement? Interesting indeed...

 

[Rail Driver]

I guess I struck a nerve here and I apologize. Feel free to substitute "pipe bomb" with "grenade". The question then becomes, can one make a grenade by completing Form 1.



Really? I find that quite amazing. I understand that regulated explosives and even "non-consumer" fireworks generally require storage in an ATF approved magazine yet hand grenades seem to not have that requirement? Interesting indeed...

It's pretty easy to assume the vault qualifies as an ATF approved storage magazine. To further confirm this see the link below:

http://www.atf.gov/explosives/how-to/explosive-storage-requirements.html

 

[AlexanderA]

Since the Hughes amendment did not apply to NFA items other than machine guns, it would presumably be legal for an individual to make a "destructive device" after properly registering it (and paying the tax) on a Form 1. So you could theoretically make and possess a pipe bomb. But why? Keeping explosive ordnance in one's house is just insane. You'd have to be practically suicidal.

 

[S.W.G.]

can one make a grenade by completing Form 1.

I can't see why not. I remember reading somewhere about a few grenade launcher owners doing a group buy on 40mm HE grenades.

If that's fair game, why would a hand grenade or pipe bomb be any different?

 

[medalguy]

Sometimes what one can do legally, and what is smart, may not be intersecting lines.

 

[mboylan]

Explosives are another class all together. You need an ATF approved magazine. I may be incorrect, but I believe you need other licenses as well, like a Type 10 FFL. You would be denied.

 

[crazy-mp]

By federal law you may be able to get the paperwork to build and legally maintain one, but there may be state laws that dictate if you can ever "use" your item.

Like the Washington state law that allows suppressor ownership, but forbids the use of the suppressor.

 

[AlexanderA]

Explosive devices, like grenades and pipe bombs, are by their very nature disposable, or self-destructive. If you were to actually use a registered item like this, for whatever reason (research?), you'd lose your investment in the tax stamp. This doesn't make economic sense.

If you want to collect grenades, you can do so using dummy or inert ones. No registration required.

Collecting live grenades, registered or unregistered, is one of the craziest things I've ever heard of!

 

[Rail Driver]

Explosive devices, like grenades and pipe bombs, are by their very nature disposable, or self-destructive. If you were to actually use a registered item like this, for whatever reason (research?), you'd lose your investment in the tax stamp. This doesn't make economic sense.

If you want to collect grenades, you can do so using dummy or inert ones. No registration required.

Collecting live grenades, registered or unregistered, is one of the craziest things I've ever heard of!

That may be your opinion, but when it comes down to it, it's part of our right to bear arms. The 2nd Amendment doesn't differentiate between CCW handguns, rifles, shotguns, machine guns, laser guns, sonic guns, suppressors, short or long barrels, or anything else pertaining to WHAT we can bear, only that we have the right to bear arms, whatever they may be. All regulations have been added in by our legislators bit by bit, year by year. I can tell you that if a hand grenade cost $200, plus the $200 tax stamp, I'd go out and get 2 so I can (legally) try one out on a few watermelons inside a junk car and keep the other one in case I ever need to use it. It'd be worth every penny of that tax stamp when I send in the notice of destruction to the ATF. That's what I call a warm and fuzzy feeling inside!

 

[AlexanderA]

Rail Driver wrote:

That may be your opinion, but when it comes down to it, it's part of our right to bear arms. The 2nd Amendment doesn't differentiate between CCW handguns, rifles, shotguns, machine guns, laser guns, sonic guns, suppressors, short or long barrels, or anything else pertaining to WHAT we can bear, only that we have the right to bear arms, whatever they may be. All regulations have been added in by our legislators bit by bit, year by year. I can tell you that if a hand grenade cost $200, plus the $200 tax stamp, I'd go out and get 2 so I can (legally) try one out on a few watermelons inside a junk car and keep the other one in case I ever need to use it. It'd be worth every penny of that tax stamp when I send in the notice of destruction to the ATF. That's what I call a warm and fuzzy feeling inside!

I'm not disputing the right to keep hand grenades (I think we've established that, under federal law, you can probably make one by filing a Form 1 and paying the $200 tax, etc.). I'm disputing the wisdom of keeping them. Even if they were free (in price and in regulation), I still wouldn't want one anywhere around my house. Would you want to keep poison gas in your house?

If you "ever need to use it," the knowledge of how to make them is available. Or, more likely, the Army would provide a source of supply. Hope and pray that things never get that bad in this country. Because they have certainly gotten that bad in other countries. When I was born in Europe at the end of WWII, teenage boys were wandering the streets threatening to set off grenades if they didn't like your looks. Do we want America to become like that?

 

[Rail Driver]

Rail Driver wrote:



I'm not disputing the right to keep hand grenades (I think we've established that, under federal law, you can probably make one by filing a Form 1 and paying the $200 tax, etc.). I'm disputing the wisdom of keeping them. Even if they were free (in price and in regulation), I still wouldn't want one anywhere around my house. Would you want to keep poison gas in your house?

If you "ever need to use it," the knowledge of how to make them is available. Or, more likely, the Army would provide a source of supply. Hope and pray that things never get that bad in this country. Because they have certainly gotten that bad in other countries. When I was born in Europe at the end of WWII, teenage boys were wandering the streets threatening to set off grenades if they didn't like your looks. Do we want America to become like that?

Now if you please, take your post and everywhere you put "grenades" or "hand grenades", substitute any of the following: handguns, rifles, machineguns, toaster ovens, cars, children, or anything else that it is my right and choice to have or not.... See that's the same argument they use every time, and it sounds especially hollow coming from a RTKBA supporter.

I'm not saying that bad things haven't happened, and nobody with any common sense would want things to be the way you described. Does what somebody else did 50+ years and thousands of miles away have any bearing on what any reasonable person such as you, or me, or the next guy not prohibited for mental or legal reasons (another discussion altogether) from owning any firearm might do? Do you assume that only the very rich who can afford walk in vaults and fancy licenses are fit to own these types of devices? I'm all for requiring documented training in the safe storage and operation of whatever the device may be, but I don't see any reason for them to be regulated even as much as they are, especially with the artificially high market rate for regulated firearms due to the relevant laws.

*Edit to add, your post also illustrates something I've long noticed in some people I know who can be considered "anti-gun"....

Even if they were free (in price and in regulation), I still wouldn't want one anywhere around my house. Would you want to keep poison gas in your house?

Stored properly and safely in an ATF approved storage magazine, a grenade is no more dangerous than a rock. In this, and some other cases, ATF regulations are in place for safety reasons and not simply "gun control" reasons.

You don't seem to trust your own ability to safely and properly store a grenade, so it can be implied that this is the reason you feel others shouldn't either because it's bad.

How many different poisons, solvents, enamels, fertilizers and other highly toxic or irritating chemicals do you store safely and properly every day in and around your home? Your gallon of laundry bleach, if it were to leak on an improperly stored bottle of ammonia containing cleaner can result in a great deal of poison gas that can cause permanent damage and death... Do you trust yourself to store bleach and ammonia safely or do you simply use neither? Does that somehow affect my ability to properly store and handle chemicals?

 

[halogrinder]

regardless- thats an expensive one *bang*

 

[AlexanderA]

Rail Driver wrote:

Now if you please, take your post and everywhere you put "grenades" or "hand grenades", substitute any of the following: handguns, rifles, machineguns, toaster ovens, cars, children, or anything else that it is my right and choice to have or not.... See that's the same argument they use every time, and it sounds especially hollow coming from a RTKBA supporter.

I understand the point you are trying to make. Nevertheless, there's an order of difference between an item of explosive ordnance and the other items you mention. I keep machine guns in my house, and I have no problem with that. But grenades or artillery shells, no. What if there's a fire? To what extent would I want to endanger firefighters? Remember, I'm not questioning the right to own explosive ordnance. I'm questioning the practicality of it.

Things like this should be stored away from an inhabited area and in a properly-designed magazine. Plus, there's a need for special training in handling and use. After all is said and done, there's something strange going on here. To deny that is to hide one's head in the sand. Keeping live grenades for sh*ts and giggles -- huh?

 

[PedalBiker]

What if there's a fire? To what extent would I want to endanger firefighters? Remember, I'm not questioning the right to own explosive ordnance. I'm questioning the practicality of it.

Grenades don't ship with the fuses installed. Hence, they'd be just fine in a fire. Besides, a proper magazine would cover fire hazards as well, so you'd have two layers of safety.

Likewise, a device as described by the OP could also be stored in a condition that precluded hazards until final assembly made it operational.

I had the opportunity to throw some grenades while in the Army. It's not really much fun since you don't get to watch the results. We did get to watch other soldiers through periscopes, that wasn't all that impressive either. What was impressive was the damage to everything on the range. The PA speakers were riddled, concrete bunkers were pockmarked, it was pretty spooky.

 

[CapnMac]

I'm torn here.
On the one hand explosives, "pyro" if you will, are nothing more than a tool with specific sorts of uses.

On the other hand, like any tool, there is often as much smart as stupid around that tool.

I've--sadly--had neighbors who were far too cavalier with fistfuls of blasting caps laying about. Or the person whose 'cousin' "acquired" some NG C-4--said find being stored in a styrofoam cooler packed in sawdust and kept in a freezer . . .

But, against those statistical outliers are the tens of thousands of reloaders; or the equally numerous BP shooters out there, each of which have pound cans of "explosives" in their homes.

But, I'm biased in this, and others differ.

 

[AlexanderA]

PedalBiker wrote:

Grenades don't ship with the fuses installed. Hence, they'd be just fine in a fire. Besides, a proper magazine would cover fire hazards as well, so you'd have two layers of safety.

It's irrelevant how they are shipped. What's relevant is how they are kept. As to their safety in a fire, it's worth noting that half of U.S. WWII frag grenades were filled with EC Blank Fire powder (as opposed to TNT). EC Blank Fire powder will certainly cook off in a fire (after all, it was set off with an igniting, rather than detonating, fuze in the grenade). (As a sidelight, the EC-filled grenades were indeed shipped fuzed, while the TNT-filled ones were not.) A "proper magazine" would be a separate, earth-bermed structure away -- far away -- from occupied dwellings.

 

[AlexanderA]

CapnMac wrote:

But, against those statistical outliers are the tens of thousands of reloaders; or the equally numerous BP shooters out there, each of which have pound cans of "explosives" in their homes.

The difference is that these propellants are not confined in a frag casing. If a pound can of propellant (including black powder) goes off, it will make a bang but it won't fill the house with shrapnel. Nevertheless there's a definite fire hazard. Some common-sense precautions need to be taken even with reloading supplies.

 

[JustinJ]

Now if you please, take your post and everywhere you put "grenades" or "hand grenades", substitute any of the following: handguns, rifles, machineguns, toaster ovens, cars, children, or anything else that it is my right and choice to have or not....

You could also substitue "nuclear device" in there. Nobody with common sense would believe such should be allowed in private hands.

I'm not saying people should or should not be allowed to own hand grenades but things aren't so black and white.

 

[TexasRifleman]

I think you could probably get a tax stamp to BUY a pipe bomb from a manufacturer, but to make your on on a Form 1 is going to take more than just the tax stamp.

The tax stamp isn't going to allow you to purchase the explosive component to make the device, you will need lots more permits and paperwork for that.

 

[Cosmoline]

Obviously there are a lot of pipe bombs and other explosives made legally for testing and entertainment. Think of how many get set off on a show like "Mythbusters." I assumed that there was a state-level licensing system in place for this sort of thing, and it would surprise me if explosives handlers had to apply for a DD certification for every single explosive device they rig up.

This isn't something to do as a one-off project. You need to know what you're doing before undertaking any of it. But if you're serious about doing it safely I'm pretty sure there are legal avenues to go down.

Maybe someone who's done this kind of work can chime in.

 

[RhinoDefense]

I think you could probably get a tax stamp to BUY a pipe bomb from a manufacturer, but to make your on on a Form 1 is going to take more than just the tax stamp.

Depends on what you make it from. A good size pipe with blackpowder and a fuse requires no additional paperwork or permits. BP is very easy to find.

Molotov cocktails, pipe bombs, etc are all destructive devices under NFA and require a F1 to make for non-SOTs.