Dillon powder measure bars

[243winxb]

My last batch of 1000 45 acp went from 5 grains of bullseye to 6 grains around the 600ish round mark

Was a new bottle, lot number of Bullseye opened? I tested 3 different powders by volume. New lots have been heavier then the old lots. Using the same measure setting.

Outgassing of smokeless powders may be the cause. I never mix different lot numbers of the same powder.

 

[lordpaxman]

The powder baffle in the bottom of the powder hopper is there to keep a consistent drop no matter how full the powder hopper is.

I always operate with the baffle, but there’s a slight change as the column height decreases. Not much, it can be a tenth or two for powders like N320 or Sport Pistol dropping 3 grains. I try to keep the measure at least half full.
When you fill an empty hopper, there’s settling that occurs. I manually operate the measure for about 25 times before I start a run.

 

[Blue68f100]

A baffle needs to me orientated correctly for it to work right. The opening needs to be to the side of the pickup, 1-2" above the bottom of the hopper. Some powder dispensers have the pickup in the center while others are shifted toward the edge. The dispensers with off set pickup like RCBS, Hornady and other rotarary dispensers needs to have the baffle so the opening is to the side. If you have it 180 off the pickup will see full powder column height. It still takes some cycling to get them to settle down once powder is dumped into the hopper.

 

[Jim Watson]

While I have not experienced powder charge drift - I haven't changed my powder measure settings since the last time I changed bullets - there is no reason not to make a fixed charge bar for a Dillon. Brass or aluminum would probably work, Arredondo makes one out of Delrin plastic. You could make one to use CH measure bushings but that would require a new spacer.

 

[jmorris]

Please tell me that is not your normal amount of flare on 9mm brass.

It’s not, that is the most extreme flare the Dillon is capable of, you couldn’t use that much though because the case would never enter the seating die after that.

In the past someone could not get enough flare with the Dillon powder funnel die bottomed out. I tried to explain he was missing something and he didn’t understand until I posted that photo, so I kept it.

I use as little flare I can and not shave bullets. With GSI seaters I can use almost none. Like this seated and not crimped round and the one just behind it ready for a bullet to be seated (note those are cast and coated too, not FMJ (that require even less).

 

[MikeInOr]

I always operate with the baffle, but there’s a slight change as the column height decreases. Not much, it can be a tenth or two for powders like N320 or Sport Pistol dropping 3 grains. I try to keep the measure at least half full.
When you fill an empty hopper, there’s settling that occurs. I manually operate the measure for about 25 times before I start a run.

I had an argument with a friend a long time ago. He would hold a small vibrating hand sander against his powder measure to "settle the powder" when he started each reloading session. I know this was the exact opposite of what should be done.

When I start a reloading session I usually operate the powder measure and weigh the charges until they settle which usually doesn't take very long. This also shows me that the powder measure is set where I "think" I left it.

The shape of the powder particles will change the way they interact with the baffle and how they settle under the baffle.

We had a guest speaker way back when I was in college that gave a presentation on "stacking theory" which sounded absolutely stupid and boring. I went anyway and the lecture was all about how small particles interact with each other in a confined container. Stuff like wheat in a silo and how the diameter of the silo determines if the wheat on the bottom will be crushed under the weight of the wheat on top of it instead of the height of the silo (With the correct silo diameter the silo can be infinitely tall without crushing the wheat on the bottom). Sand and gravel in a ditch surrounding a pipe and how their flow characteristics equalize the pressure on all sides of the pipe to keep it from collapsing even under the weight of a heavy truck. It was fascinating! It was also a perfect explanation of how powder acts in a powder measure and how the shape of the powder particles change how the powder acts in the powder measure (hence explaining the purpose of the baffle).

 

[Jim Watson]

I had an argument with a friend a long time ago. He would hold a small vibrating hand sander against his powder measure to "settle the powder" when he started each reloading session. I know this was the exact opposite of what should be done.

An old article about the management of a Star reloader described stirring the powder with a blunted ice pick at the start of a session. I did that with my old CH but now with Dillons I just weigh the first three charges and by the third, the weight has leveled out, not that it was far off to start with.

 

[Slamfire]

My old Bonanza/Pacific powder measure has a very long powder reservoir.

The difference in capacity and tube height is very noticeable when comparing to my Redding PR-50 powder measure and my Lyman 55 powder measure. However, regardless of the paint color on the measure, gravity still is the same! After thinking about it, I am sure this is how Redding an Lyman claim their powder measures are "more accurate". Because they shortened their column height so throw weights differences due to varying column heights, are less. And also, you have to fill the Redding and Lyman powder measures more often, because the measure capacity is a lot less.

 

[jmorris]

I had an argument with a friend a long time ago. He would hold a small vibrating hand sander against his powder measure to "settle the powder" when he started each reloading session. I know this was the exact opposite of what should be done.

Was this his set up?



I always laugh at that photo…. I have seen vibration help “stacked” items though. A floatzoner I worked on used vibrators and a flow of inert gas up through the column, for a perfect growth.

 

[MikeInOr]

Was this his set up?

View attachment 1167279

I always laugh at that photo…. I have seen vibration help “stacked” items though. A floatzoner I worked on used vibrators and a flow of inert gas up through the column, for a perfect growth.

View attachment 1167278

Not exactly, but I should get him one for Christmas for his powder measure!


floatzoner ????

 

[sevt_chevelle]

Count me as another one that has never had their powder measure drift on a dillon.

 

[GTS Dean]

1 word: Armanov

Clickable Powder Thrower Adjustment Knob

Make adjusting your powder thrower a breeze with our clickable knob. Enjoy precise, effortless adjustments every time with this must-have accessory.

www.armanov.com

 

[ms6852]

I've been reloading for more than 26 years and to this day I would not know how to use a bar. Just have an old co-ax Forster press and the Lee whack-a-mole stuff for different calibers.

 

[nettlle]

I have two Dillon tools heads set up for 45acp and 9mm respectively. Both set up for Bullseye. After many thousands of rounds I have yet to have either of these charge bars "drift".

 

[whughett]

I've never had a Dillon charge bar drift and I have been running them for 30 years on various presses including a 550, 650, and 1050.

Like mentioned, powder height in the hopper can have an effect. I try to keep mine between 2/3 max to 1/3 min.

Ditto. And to creep it would have to actually rotate the screw that moves the adjustable slide in or out. Where would the rotational forces come from for that to happen?? I’m referring to my type of measure slides dating back to 1982 not a later or after market version.

 

[EricBu]

My "creep" experience with 3 different types of measure (rcbs, mark 7, dillon) have 100 % been powder type. Light powders like Titegroup...zero creep, ever. I can do a 10k round session, and it will still be throwing the same charge. Put the measure up, empty it, come back a week later...same charge. But a dense powder will creep. Lovex and AA pistol powders for example. Mark 7 gave me the solution there, and the same solution worked with my dillon. The dense powders pack in the measure. My whole reloading life, it had been drilled into me to keep the measures over half way full...now if I'm using a Lovex or a AA type powder, I have a line halfway up the measure and never fill past that line. Creep stopped. Sucks on the Mark 7, seems like I am constantly stopping to fill the measure, but worth it. Huge difference on the Dillon too. I've also tried just about every aftermarket product out there for the dillon, and every mod. Double wave washers, micrometer adjusted bars, brass knobs and spring kits, all that stuff. None of it ever made a substantial difference, and now I'm mostly back to stock dillon on the dozen or so measures I have.

 

[rfwobbly]

I've never had a Dillon charge bar drift and I have been running them for 30 years on various presses including a 550, 650, and 1050.

Like mentioned, powder height in the hopper can have an effect. I try to keep mine between 2/3 max to 1/3 min.

I've only got 23 years on Dillon powder measures, but my experience is the exact same. Properly setup, there is zero variation in powder "drops".

I believe our friend Ky Dan will spend a lot of time and money on the fixed volume powder slide idea and then discover the problem is not the Powder Bar at all. I note that there are 2 primary setup details that are not mentioned at all...

1) He started with a new can of Bullseye, but I can't find where he told us how full the powder hopper was filled.

2) During setup, we were not told how many powder "drops" were made before loading began. Like all mechanical powder measures, the powder is measured by Volume. However what we want is Weight. The ONLY aspect that joins consistent volume to consistent weight is consistent Density. If your powder measure isn't allowed to settle to a consistent density before loading begins then, yes, your results during loading will wander. This is basic Powder Measure 101, but I'm always surprised how many reloaders still don't know this. By allowing the powder measure to drop around 10 loads BEFORE loading begins, the shaking of the Dillon PM should settle the powder inside to the highly desired consistent density.

Dillon users can make the shaking more consistent and therefore achieve more accurate powder drops by adding a light return pressure to the Powder Bar. This can easily be done with rubber bands or a Dillon 450 return spring that has been "lightened up". Photos below...

 

[KY DAN]

I've only got 23 years on Dillon powder measures, but my experience is the exact same. Properly setup, there is zero variation in powder "drops".

I believe our friend Ky Dan will spend a lot of time and money on the fixed volume powder slide idea and then discover the problem is not the Powder Bar at all. I note that there are 2 primary setup details that are not mentioned at all...

1) He started with a new can of Bullseye, but I can't find where he told us how full the powder hopper was filled.

2) During setup, we were not told how many powder "drops" were made before loading began. Like all mechanical powder measures, the powder is measured by Volume. However what we want is Weight. The ONLY aspect that joins consistent volume to consistent weight is consistent Density. If your powder measure isn't allowed to settle to a consistent density before loading begins then, yes, your results during loading will wander. This is basic Powder Measure 101, but I'm always surprised how many reloaders still don't know this. By allowing the powder measure to drop around 10 loads BEFORE loading begins, the shaking of the Dillon PM should settle the powder inside to the highly desired consistent density.

Dillon users can make the shaking more consistent and therefore achieve more accurate powder drops by adding a light return pressure to the Powder Bar. This can easily be done with rubber bands or a Dillon 450 return spring that has been "lightened up". Photos below...

To answer your questions as follows

1. I have extended tubes with baffles that will hold 1 pound of most handgun appropriate powders.

2. I generally will weigh 10-20 cases before acual loading.

I am quite positive this is happening, was my initial idea the best???? Probably not as I had never considered the set screw mods in the bar other members suggested.

I have loaded extensively on Ch auto champion presses, star universals, dillon rl1000, dillon rl450, and dillon rl550, and all the progressive products Lee manufactured up until 2018 when I quit using them.

Star fixed bar method is the most accurate and enjoyable in regards of repeatability and accuracy.

I figured bringing that to the vase activates dillon was a swell concept

 

[lordpaxman]

I figured bringing that to the vase activates dillon was a swell concept

I’m not sure exactly what you wanted to type here, but I’ve found typing into THR post window, sometimes autocorrect really effs up what you’re trying to type - I’m a touch typist and I’m saying it inserts words in words, and invents new words. And I don’t think it’s the native OS autocorrect.

ANYway, I’m with you on the inserts for the Dillon. I know others have purchased the powder bar and have it preset, but an insert solution would be less expensive and not subject to change.
Once I have a known drop on my Dillion, and want to change it, for example from N320 to Sport Pistol, I make a note on how far and which way I have to rotate the knob to achieve the new drop. If I want to go back to the original powder, I can consult notes and get pretty close, but obviously this has disadvantages.
My son just got a 3D printer…… hmmmmmmm…..

 

[Jim Watson]

A friend will "work up" a load that he likes, scribe a line across the bar and adjusting plug, and keep it in a labeled bag or box, buying another bar for the next load.

There are calibrated, even click-stopped knobs for the Dillon powder measure.
Mike Dillon said he didn't include one because he did not want to make it too easy to change a setting on a mass production machine. Bump a knob in the middle of a case of shells and you would be sorry.
I got the brass MR Dial which is not as useful as I had hoped. Now I would get the Armanov or similar.

 

[Walkalong]

Powder height matters, baffles help, some powders need to have more charges thrown to settle down before you start charging cases.

After that, measures should not "drift" or otherwise vary more that that powders "norm" unless the adjustment gets loose.

 

[starnbar]

I too have not experienced any creep however the weight will vary per charge if a powder level is not consistent. Try to maintain a level between 1/2 and 3/4 full for the dillon. The other condition that may show is a poor mounting base your press must be firmly attached to a sturdy/solid bench with no discernable vibration or lateral movement.

 

[Jim Watson]

I run my powder measure from about 3/4 to 1/4.
Too cheap to buy the Dillon Buzzer, I made a level gauge out of a circle of cardboard and a plastic rod, drilling out the vent hole in the measure cap to pass the rod. I just look for the low mark on the rod when I fill the primer feed.

 

[GW Staar]

It’s not, that is the most extreme flare the Dillon is capable of, you couldn’t use that much though because the case would never enter the seating die after that.

In the past someone could not get enough flare with the Dillon powder funnel die bottomed out. I tried to explain he was missing something and he didn’t understand until I posted that photo, so I kept it.

I use as little flare I can and not shave bullets. With GSI seaters I can use almost none. Like this seated and not crimped round and the one just behind it ready for a bullet to be seated (note those are cast and coated too, not FMJ (that require even less).

Yeah, I assumed you were demoing......I will say that's a pretty flare in the first picture!.....and I thought I saw an "M" step on the expander in that picture. DAA expander instead of Dillon? Or does Dillon add one on theirs now?

 

[BWS]

Towards the OP;

Don't have any experience with the Dillon powder bar,but have a lot of experience with RCBS Uniflows and Lyman Accumeasures.....

Side by side comparisons of seemingly identical measures can and do have noticeable differences in ability to throw consistently. Only thing I can attribute it to is, running clearance on the rotor to body casting. So,if you start making bushings for your slide type powder thrower,keep an eye on the clearance at the point of where the "screeding" takes place.

If you're making "one"(bushing),make a cpl more... with the same cavity size,change the running clearance to see if you can pickup any precision?

Good luck with your project,sounds fun.