Disturbing problem: Cartridge with Lyman cast bullet handloaded to COAL spec will NOT chamber in my rifle

[MEHavey]

We have met the enemy . . .
(and it ain't the mold)

And it's PC on a bore-riding nose:

 

[AJC1]

I think I understand now why the Lee mold skinny ogive bullet never got the "ring" on the ogive from the seating die. Its narrow ogive shape let the die's hollow shaped seating insert contact the TIP of the bullet first, instead of the ogive. The tip of the bullet may well have been altered a bit by the seating force, but I never noticed that, so it ust have been a very subtle alteration to the tip.

On many Dillon dies, the seating insert is double-ended. One end is hollow curved to try to catch a bullet ogive to seat the bullet. The other end is FLAT, to catch the tip of a semiwadcutter or wadcutter.

An arrangement like that on the Hornady die would have been potentially a solution to eliminate the ring being engraved into the ogive.

Jim G

Noe is cool because they sell the mold, the top punch, and the adapter to use the top punch in a Lee seating die along with the two step expander to round out the system.... I don't have their top punches because I use rnfp molds and just use a swc seating plug. They have a great system worked out

So an NOE mold would potentially be a good one to get because of the available "matching accessories". But, you have to use a Lee seating die, correct? If so, that's a lmitation as I don't think Lee offers a micrometer seater, and I really like the convenience, speed, and accuracy of a micrometer seater.

Jim G

The two step expanders fit in the Lee universal expander body. I have and use those. The collar and top punch I don't use and think they may also fit in the expander body, but I haven't done it myself. I have piles of loaded 45-70 from dad so when all the stuff gets here next month I'll have to go through it all. I'm sure the mold is a 385 grain, so I'm in a lightweight class in comparison.

 

[JimGnitecki]

We have met the enemy . . .
(and it ain't the mold)

And it's PC on a bore-riding nose:

We have met the enemy . . .
(and it ain't the mold)

And it's PC on a bore-riding nose:

Your statement is "technically" correct, but misleading. The 457125 profile is VERY bulbuous, apparently too bulbuous for my specific rifle. That is proven by the fact that I need to keep COAL .036" under the COAL recommended by Lyman. Then, yes, of course, adding the thickness of the powder coating IS going to make it even WORSE. That does NOT mean "the powder is the problem".

The powder worked GREAT with the Lee 485g bullets, chambering easily and delivering 3-shot groups as small as 0.62" at 100 yards.

Also, you need to pay attention of course to how THICK a coating of powder you apply. I coat my bullets via the "agitate in a No. 4 recyclable Polypropolene container with Crosman BBs to add static charge, and then when moving each coated bullet from the container to the oven tray via hemostat, I tap the hemostat on the rim of the container 2 or 3 times to shake off any surplus powder. When done this way, the powder coating is only about .001" thick. Eastwood says .001" to .002" thickness is fine.

If .001" or .002" added thickness on a bullet ogive is a problem for chambering, the real problem is the ogive of the bullet.

By ther way, you have referred a few times to this bullet being a "bore rider". What does that mean exactly?

JIim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

Noe is cool because they sell the mold, the top punch, and the adapter to use the top punch in a Lee seating die along with the two step expander to round out the system.... I don't have their top punches because I use rnfp molds and just use a swc seating plug. They have a great system worked out
The two step expanders fit in the Lee universal expander body. I have and use those. The collar and top punch I don't use and think they may also fit in the expander body, but I haven't done it myself. I have piles of loaded 45-70 from dad so when all the stuff gets here next month I'll have to go through it all. I'm sure the mold is a 385 grain, so I'm in a lightweight class in comparison.

Yes, you are closer to the range of bullet weight that I would LIKE to be in. But, I have been told that trying to shoot 600 yards with a bullet lighter than about 500g won't work very well. It gets pretty interesting when you throw in the transonic region issues. With normal modern rifle loads, you are well above the transonic region unless you go out quite a ways PAST 600 yards. I have fired my my 6.5 Creedmore PGW scoped rifle only as far as 300 yards so far, but my 120g handloads for it are producing reliable 5-shot groups barely larger than 1/4 MOA. The velocity stays WELL above the transonic range.

But the buffalo rifle is very different. There, you have a choice on how to handle the transonic issues. You can in theory TRY to stay above the transonic range, but the BC realities of 45-70 bullets would then require muzzle velocities in the rnage of 2000 fps. A 500g bullet at 2000 fps is going to generate very strong recoil (PF = 1000!), which is hard on the shooter, and probably not great for the mechanical pieces on the historically semi-authentic scope with its primitive EXTERNAL mounts and adjustments and its SLIDING mode of operation. After each shot, my scope needs to be slid back "into battery". With muzzle velocities in the 1060 to 1400 fps, it "moves" on recoil over an inch (actually, it is the rifle that moves on recoil, not the scope, but nevertheless there is that high speed relative movement on every shot).

Or, you can try to keep the bullet velocity BELOW the transonic zone. But, that is in reality, really impossible, because transonic effects apparently appear over a range of speeds several hundred fps wide, starting at well under 1000 fps and running up past 1300 fps! So, a slow bullet cannot avoid them. Also, the trajectories associated with 500g bullets at slow speeds get ridiculous. My historically semi-authentic scope has over 200 MOA of externally adjustable height. And then of course, the slow speed coupled with the lousy ballistic coefficient of a 45-70 historically semi-authentic bullet, results in really big windage effects at even modest wind speeds.

So, considering all the options and impediments, you realize you need a bullet that can successfully mitigate transonic effects. But advertised bullet specs don't include any measure of transonic effects mitigation.

So you try to read a lot of forum postings to find out what others have managed to make work.

This makes for a slow and sometimes frustrating load development program, but great satisfaction when you finally achieve reasonable success.

Jim G

 

[MEHavey]

Nope -- The Extreme Chrome PC is as thin as it gets.
But as thin as it is, when slapped on the nose of a classic Bore Rider design, you've exceeded the design tolerances/specs to clear the bore.

The other bullets mentioned don't have that close a tolerance and can accommodate PC buildup.
But that roughly 150-year old 457125 is performing exactly as intended for its original design -- as a bare bullet.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Nope -- The Extreme Chrome PC is as thin as it gets.
But as thin as it is, when slapped on the nose of a classic Bore Rider design, you've exceeded the design tolerances/specs to clear the bore.

The other bullets mentioned don't have that close a tolerance and can accommodate PC buildup.
But that roughly 150-year old 457125 is performing exactly as intended for its original design -- as a bare bullet.

Ok, thank-you for the link that explains that a bore rider bullet is basically one whose NOSE rides on top of the lands, while its shank runs inside the grooves. Using that definition, the Lyman 457125 is indeed a bore rider, AND one that clearly MUST use conventional lubricant versus powder coating, unless being fired in a rifle with rather loose barrel and throat dimensions.

I wish Mike Venturino had mentioned that, as I strongly prefer the advantages that powder coating makes available:
- the lack of messiness
- the lack of lube buildup inside seating and crimping dies, and the irritating variances that lube buildup creates
- the ability to enlarge a bullet's as-cast diameter to whatever actually optimizes its fit to my specific rifle
- the ability to have available a much wider speed range without lead deposits in the barrel
- the increased robustness of a soft-alloy bullet that has been powder coated
- the reduced exposure to Lead when handling powder coated cast bullets
- the cleaner barrel after a shooting session
- the nicer appearance of a powder coated bullet

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

Trail of the Wolf DOES ship to Canada, so I have ordered THREE expanders (.458", .459", and .460") plus the dies they fit into. That will enable me to expand my cases for sure to an ID that will accept the bullet I end up casting and shooting, with minimized force, and thus hopefully less or no damage to the ogive from the seating die insert.

To give you American residents an idea of the costs we Canadian residents incur when ordering stuff from the U.S.:
- The 4 parts mentioned above which total only about $18 US become $25 CAN after currency conversion
- The "international" USPS shipping is $38 US = $53
- Canada Customs sometimes adds tariffs to protect non-existent Canadian industries
- Canada Customs DOES add 5% Federal sales tax

So those 4 parts will cost me AT LEAST $78 CAN

Jim G

 

[MEHavey]

strongly prefer the advantages that powder coating makes available:

Couldn't agree more... except on bore riders and certain other close tolerance mold designs (223 comes to mind)
But when "bare bullet" is de rigueur (in deference to the our Québécois ), ALOX as applied in the link above is both clean and exceptionally effective up to very high (2,500fps) velocities

 

[JimGnitecki]

Couldn't agree more... except on bore riders and certain other close tolerance mold designs (223 comes to mind)
But when "bare bullet" is de rigueur (in deference to the our Québécois ), ALOX as applied in the link above is both clean and exceptionally effective up to very high (2,500fps) velocities

Yes, Alox is my "fallback" substitute.

Jim G