hey. I've gotten the impression from some of these gun activists sites that if guns are readily available to the common man, criminals would think twice before preying on vulnerable people (pirates hijacking an unarmed family taking a boat ride 10 miles off the coast of Texas). Do liberal gun laws prevent crime or make society more dangerous?
Do loose gun laws lower the crime rate?
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Blackbeard
Member
The ones that are worried about getting shot will think twice. The ones who plan to die anyway will still commit their murders, but won't get as far when some of the potential victims are armed.
If, God forbid, you were a thief and you were cruising the streets looking for an easy mark to support your drug habit and suddenly you see a sign in the driveway that says "This is a Gun Free Household" would you be likely to hit it?
CoRoMo
Member
I'm no expert, and haven't seen the "latest research", but I've always heard that they do.
An NRA instructor in a class I took once said that,
"When castle doctrine laws began to take affect in many states, crime rates flat-lined."
I think that was a bit of an exaggeration, if not a complete fabrication.hth
They are.
There are currently 35 "shall issue" states and 2 fundamental right to carry states.
So far, statistically, it appears that states with carry rights have not experienced either a growth or decrease of violent crimes...HOWEVER, this does not take into account of situations where a firearm was drawn and not fired to prevent a crime and then not reported to police.
People can "spin" these stats to back whatever agenda they wish, but what it comes down to for responsible firearms owners is that it is better to be able protect yourself during times of need than to have to call-for and depend on others to protect you.
Troll
But while we're here I would remind you that the New Life Church shooting, had one of the lowest body counts of all these mass shooting events specifically because there was a private citizen on site with a CHP and a gun. The bad guy was dead before the police were even aware there was a problem
Dangerous people make society more dangerous. Guns are inanimate objects.
Today, I heard that a high school kid got raided after making threats. They found no guns, but found "dozens of home-made explosives".
What gun law is going to stop a person who already aims to commit illegal acts regardless of whether or not he is legally allowed to own a gun? Moreover, what gun law would have made society safe if that kid didn't get caught and threw bombs in the cafeteria? Maybe we should outlaw bombs too---oh wait, we did that YEARS ago - many, many years ago, in fact. And how is limiting the number of LEGALLY available guns going to get rid of the guns in Mexico or the guns that were stolen from law-abiding citizens, police officers and their patrol cars, pawn and gun shops, etc.?
Today, I heard that a high school kid got raided after making threats. They found no guns, but found "dozens of home-made explosives".
What gun law is going to stop a person who already aims to commit illegal acts regardless of whether or not he is legally allowed to own a gun? Moreover, what gun law would have made society safe if that kid didn't get caught and threw bombs in the cafeteria? Maybe we should outlaw bombs too---oh wait, we did that YEARS ago - many, many years ago, in fact. And how is limiting the number of LEGALLY available guns going to get rid of the guns in Mexico or the guns that were stolen from law-abiding citizens, police officers and their patrol cars, pawn and gun shops, etc.?
Zundfolge
Member
Go here http://www.gunfacts.info/ and download whichever version of the PDF suits your mood (the answer to the OP's question is on page 36 and 43)
And before you go all "well that's just a slanted pro-gun site" notice that every single fact is sourced in the footnotes mostly with government agency stats (something you don't see in the anti-gun propaganda ... or when you do its just referencing other anti-gun propaganda)
And before you go all "well that's just a slanted pro-gun site" notice that every single fact is sourced in the footnotes mostly with government agency stats (something you don't see in the anti-gun propaganda ... or when you do its just referencing other anti-gun propaganda)
Someone help me fill in the blanks (when you're older than dirt the memory fades). Is there a town on the outskirts of Atlanta that REQUIRES all households to own a firearm? Seems like the crime statistics would fit right in here.
Zundfolge
Member
"latest research"
whaaa?
New Zealand has what? dozen firearm murders a year? thanks to extremely strict firearm laws. But their crime rate is arond 30% higher than the United States? The UK has higher crime rate compared to the US. Knives simply replaced guns there. Switzerlands crime rate is 1/4 of New Zealands and Switzerland requires all males over 20 to own a rifle.
whaaa?
New Zealand has what? dozen firearm murders a year? thanks to extremely strict firearm laws. But their crime rate is arond 30% higher than the United States? The UK has higher crime rate compared to the US. Knives simply replaced guns there. Switzerlands crime rate is 1/4 of New Zealands and Switzerland requires all males over 20 to own a rifle.
General Geoff
Member
CWL,
I realize most states are shall-issue, but what about those other states which probably account for half the nation's population? I'm a little worried.
As for that comment that guns won't prevent a suicidel nutjob angry at the world - do you think 30ish people would have died from the Virginia-tech shooting if one of those students or teachers happend to have a little gun on them, in their desk or backpack? I know VA state allows guns but it just as easily could have happend in Cali or NY.
I realize most states are shall-issue, but what about those other states which probably account for half the nation's population? I'm a little worried.
As for that comment that guns won't prevent a suicidel nutjob angry at the world - do you think 30ish people would have died from the Virginia-tech shooting if one of those students or teachers happend to have a little gun on them, in their desk or backpack? I know VA state allows guns but it just as easily could have happend in Cali or NY.
Common sense would certainly say this is true.
However, I always caution people when using this line of argument for the "pro gun" cause.
The problem with this is if you use this argument the anti will immediately ask you to "prove it", which you will not be able to do.
The number of lives saved by firearms is difficult if not impossible to prove clearly, while the number of people killed with firearms is pretty easy to prove.
That's why this isn't the best argument for pro gunners to use. This is a nice SIDE BENEFIT of an armed populace, but not the justification for having one in the first place.
KBintheSLC
Member
CoRoMo
Member
I was quoting a post that Jeff made about the recent church shooting in Illinois. I think the context fits this discussion.
I've always heard that as well, but I think Woody should drop in because he always tends to disagree with this argument. But he's probably asleep right now.
I've always heard that as well, but I think Woody should drop in because he always tends to disagree with this argument. But he's probably asleep right now.
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mljdeckard
Member
The presence or absence of guns in society does not prevent or encourage the overall crime rate. Crime is a socio-economic problem, not a gun problem.
Wrong question. It should be..."Does strict gun control or banning handguns lower the crime rate?"
Looking at Chicago, DC and places like them, I would say definately not.
sniff...sniff....smells like troll
Looking at Chicago, DC and places like them, I would say definately not.
sniff...sniff....smells like troll
Go here http://www.gunfacts.info/ and download whichever version of the PDF suits you
That PDF has convincing data. "Guns are used 65 times more to prevent crimes than commit one". I believe if someone wants to kill someone else, they will do it. I knew a kid who stabbed a man after saying something about his mother. A lack of having a gun sure didn't stop him.
A problem with guns is it's so easy to reach for one and pop someone in the moment of loosing their temper. Though that sounds like a flawed argument to me.
I think dense areas are violent because that's generally where impoverished people live. I live where 20,000 sq/mile and guns are restricted to general public, residents won't even be outside after night fall. Would having a gun make me feel safer to walk at night? Sure. Are there to many impoverished nutjobs to allow guns to general public? Nutjobs are everywhere, what can u do? Stop catering to banks so these nutjobs can have a job!
That PDF has convincing data. "Guns are used 65 times more to prevent crimes than commit one". I believe if someone wants to kill someone else, they will do it. I knew a kid who stabbed a man after saying something about his mother. A lack of having a gun sure didn't stop him.
A problem with guns is it's so easy to reach for one and pop someone in the moment of loosing their temper. Though that sounds like a flawed argument to me.
I think dense areas are violent because that's generally where impoverished people live. I live where 20,000 sq/mile and guns are restricted to general public, residents won't even be outside after night fall. Would having a gun make me feel safer to walk at night? Sure. Are there to many impoverished nutjobs to allow guns to general public? Nutjobs are everywhere, what can u do? Stop catering to banks so these nutjobs can have a job!
I don't know why people think I'm trolling. If I wanted to troll I wouldn't pussyfoot around the topic. Not everyone is seasoned with gun politics. I come from a part of the country where guns are associated with crime by default. If U mention wanting a gun to get into target practise sport, they'll look at you like you're a ghost. They've been socially engineered by media hype and don't even know it. I get a sense that our gun rights days are limited so that's why I recently started wanting a gun or 2 or 3.
A generality: Areas where the people are less likely to commit crimes tend to have less restrictive laws. Less perceived need for more controls. Areas with higher crime rates tend toward calls for more restrictive laws.
While the CHL laws may not have direct impact on crime rates, they do change criminal patterns, as was discovered in Florida. For instance, even before the carry law was passed in Florida, there was the Orlando experience:
There had been instances of public assaults on women. The police publicly offered a handgun training program for women, with a fair number of women attending. The publicity surrounding this apparently scared off the would-be bad guys, as the rate of assaults fell toward zero. This was in the 1960s, I believe, although my memory is a bit rusty.
After passage of the Florida carry law, muggings declined. Car-jackings shifted to rental cars, particularly those from airports. Interviews with arrestees indicated a knowledge that incoming tourists wouldn't bring guns on a plane and were thus safe targets--but local residents might not be. The same results obtained when the particular issue was robbery at highway rest stops and out-of-state cars.
Further, after a CCW cab-driver shot a would-be robber, robbery attempts on taxicabs fell to a much lower rate.
My own conclusion from this sort of data is that if all states had CHL/CCW laws, and some percentage of the people availed themselves of the licensing, the increasing uncertainty for would-be criminals would shift them toward patterns of less risk--and, possibly, less violence. Burglary instead of robbery, as a for-instance.
While the CHL laws may not have direct impact on crime rates, they do change criminal patterns, as was discovered in Florida. For instance, even before the carry law was passed in Florida, there was the Orlando experience:
There had been instances of public assaults on women. The police publicly offered a handgun training program for women, with a fair number of women attending. The publicity surrounding this apparently scared off the would-be bad guys, as the rate of assaults fell toward zero. This was in the 1960s, I believe, although my memory is a bit rusty.
After passage of the Florida carry law, muggings declined. Car-jackings shifted to rental cars, particularly those from airports. Interviews with arrestees indicated a knowledge that incoming tourists wouldn't bring guns on a plane and were thus safe targets--but local residents might not be. The same results obtained when the particular issue was robbery at highway rest stops and out-of-state cars.
Further, after a CCW cab-driver shot a would-be robber, robbery attempts on taxicabs fell to a much lower rate.
My own conclusion from this sort of data is that if all states had CHL/CCW laws, and some percentage of the people availed themselves of the licensing, the increasing uncertainty for would-be criminals would shift them toward patterns of less risk--and, possibly, less violence. Burglary instead of robbery, as a for-instance.
CoRoMo
Member
I think this is the key. If we had the publicity, anything like that, I think crime rates would be affected. If the mass media wasn't reporting from an anti position to begin with, maybe gun ownership wouldn't be such a taboo/fringe idea.
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What happens when every citizen carries and the bad guys have no easy prey?
It's not like they're going to go out and get jobs.
It's not like they're going to go out and get jobs.
Some years ago a professor from a college did a study. He polled prisoners from various prisons on their methods. The number that would not enter a home that they thought had guns was very low and if they knew they had guns it was even lower. Of course this is just a tiny bit of this research and I don't remember much. I do remember though that he came to the conclusion that the fact that so many people are armed that that alone helps keep crime down. If anybody knows what research I'm talking about please post it as I would like to read it again.
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