Do most brittanys point at non-game birds?

[ImARugerFan]

I have a male Brittany, about a year and a half old. He's never been exposed to game birds, but I find it odd that he never points at anything at all in the yard. He chases robins, but he never points at them. I wish I could have put the effort into training him on birds since this was the point of getting such a hyper breed, but I wasn't able to. At this point in the game I think it is probably too late to make him a good hunting dog, but still it'd be nice if he could at least wander around with me and point the occasional wild bird in the fall when I'm out hunting. Should I get some pigeons or something and plant them to see if he points them? I've been working for a long time on just getting him to follow basic obedience. He's pretty good with it, but still fairly stubborn when he wants to be especial when it comes to calling him 'here'. Any advice at all, or is it a lost cause?

He's a pretty bastard, but that's really all he's got going for him right now...

 

[Shawnee]

Nope. A year and a half old isn't even close to being "too late".

Unfortunately, a year and a half is plenty of time for a dog to establish that he is the boss (as opposed to you) and that means they have some things now to UNlearn as well as things to learn.

Don't worry about the pointing until he has the "basic obedience" down ironclad solid.

Don't worry about the pointing until he has the "basic obedience" down ironclad solid

Don't worry about the pointing until he has the "basic obedience" down ironclad solid.

Don't worry about the pointing until he has the "basic obedience" down ironclad solid.

HTH

 

[308win]

If he has any nose and instincts he can hunt and be trained. But, he needs obedience training first. A dog that won't heel on command and come to you when called is going to have issues in the field. I have only hunted over Brittany's (a pair) once (pheasant) and the ones I hunted over were flushing dogs. They found a lot of birds, stayed in range, retreived well, and were trained to the whistle; nice dogs.

 

[ArmedBear]

He chases robins, but he never points at them.

I don't have a Brittany, however, in my limited experience, this is a good thing, not a bad one. My young Vizsla has never pointed "tweetie birds". If it's not fat, he might look at them, but he only points at something like a game bird. Sometimes, it may be a Federally-protected shorebird or something, but it's generally something at least shaped like a quail, chukar, dove, etc.

Should I get some pigeons or something and plant them to see if he points them?

Sure. Why not?

Have you done any basic point training, e.g. quail or pheasant wing on a fishing pole? That's a good way to reinforce their pointing instinct in the yard. Pop it out of the way if they go for it; soon they learn that they can't get it by lunging, so they freeze into a point. Don't expect the dog to hold forever, especially at first, but you can get them to point this way. I've done it with others' dogs at the park before. Then maybe try a pigeon.

Obedience is good. It sure won't hurt a dog to reinforce its natural ability, though, as early as you want to. Natural Ability tests are not obedience tests, for that matter. The first test a NAVHDA dog does requires pointing, tracking and swimming, but not obedience, so I would not say that you need a perfectly-obedient house dog before you expose it to hunting scenarios. Most people who are serious about this stuff worry about hunting ability first, obedience second. You can pressure the hardest dog into obedience, or "positive train" the most timid, but you'll have a really hard time getting a dog that "don't hunt" to work for you.

In fact, since a hyper Brittany might take a few years before it's a great house dog, I'd say waiting until it's an obedient dog before thinking about hunting behaviors is a bad plan! Also, moving on to high-pressure obedience training like force-fetching before you get the dog excited about hunting would be a huge mistake, IMO.

Also, I started acclimating the dog to gunfire by shooting a blank pistol while doing the fishing-pole point training. He LOVES gunfire now. Truly positive associations, not merely trying to avoid gun-shyness, are good, IMO.

Have fun!

Check these guys out. There's probably a chapter near you. Our local people have been very friendly and helpful. It's a great way to learn to train your dog while having fun in the field.

http://www.navhda.org/

 

[Shawnee]

It sounds like "Armed Bear" and I are in conflict, but we really aren't.

By "basic obedience" I mean he has to have a few commands down pat (like "Whoa" fersure), "Down", "No", "OK", and when you ask for his attention he has to give it to you. "Whoa" could save his life.
Using the commode, running the vacuum and all the parlor tricks can safely be saved for later.

First off he has to "learn to learn". He has to understand that it's his job to learn and that you are the teacher. This comes with short lessons first, and they can be on anything. Just keep them to a few minutes or a few trys.
Until he understands that he is supposed to learn things , you haven't given him a fair chance. Make it Fun (as opposed to a "win/lose" "punishment" thing) and he'll pick it up pretty quickly. Keep the punishment as an absolute last resort but use reward even when he tries (as opposed to doing something perfect). End every session with doing something he alrerady knows how to do well, and then reward the living daylights out of him. Success is a wonderful teacher. Don't worry about "spoiling" him. He'll be fine later.

Dogs (like kids) are usually looking for something to do anyway, so use that to your advantage by becoming "The Giver of Fun Things to Do".

Keep this in mind. Training a dog is a JOURNEY, NOT a Destination. He'll teach you more than you ever teach him anyway so make sure YOU ENJOY IT too. And remember: he is not your servant, he's your friend.

Good luck !

 

[Cougfan2]

My first hunting dog was a male Brittany. He was a natural pointer. Per others here, basic obedience is the foundation for all other training. Particularly teaching them to whoa and be steady to wing and shot is key. My Brittany was so hyper that when we first started a day of hunting I would let him out in a field where I didn't think there was much of an chance of him busting a covey until he had run off a little steam and was ready to settle down and hunt. After that he was a bird finding machine!

BTW, my Brittany would point box turtles!

 

[ArmedBear]

"Whoa" could save his life, but so could a leash. "Whoa" is very important for a finished dog, but not a prerequisite for revving up his pointing instincts in a fenced or safe area. You can do both at the same time and it sure won't hurt anything.

That said, urban dog obedience training really helped our hyperactive dog to focus mentally, and made him more trainable for anything in the field.

Putting a dog on a whoa post before he's excited about hunting violates the "make it fun" and "learning = fun" rules. If you get him excited about hunting, i.e. "Time spent with my Dad equals super-duper fun time!", it's easier to train the dog. Our Vizsla jumps up on the training table excitedly, even though it means he'll get his ear pinched. He WANTS to learn how to retrieve, even if his little dog brain seems dense sometimes. I doubt that he'd behave like that if he didn't associate working with us and "fun stuff."

 

[Cougfan2]

ArmedBear, I remember that my Brit was so pumped for hunting that if I was going rabbit hunting and not taking him I would have to sneak out of the house with my gun and vest because if he saw me and thought he wasn't going he would make such a fuss you'd think we were skinning him alive.

 

[ArmedBear]

Cougfan2, LOL

Vizslas are VERY vocal, with a wide vocal range. I'm sure the neighbors already think we're skinning him alive sometimes, but actually we're just eating our dinner and not giving him any. He makes a helluva racket if we drive by a field where he thinks there might be birds -- any field -- sounds like he's taking voice lessons and practicing his scales.

 

[Shawnee]

I'm pretty passionate about hunters and their dogs so I just gotta add something...

I agree with Armed Bear's advice to seek out a registered club. You'll learn tons of good things to do and also things to avoid. Your dog will learn too. However...

... I absolutely, positively guarantee you that not everyone who belongs to hunting dog clubs is a good dog man, or is worth listening to, or even should ever have a dog. And that is the Gospel Truth.

Be very careful about which club members you take advice from and certainly be careful about anyone handling your dog. Watch other club members closely to see how their dogs react to them and them to their dogs. Learn their attitudes about their dogs. If you meet anyone who views their dog as a machine - cripple them. Immediately.

Thoroughly assess everythiing you are told and train your dog to hunt the way you want him to hunt - not the way some character thinks he's "supposed to" hunt. "Supposed to" is a thing of value, but make sure the reason behind it has to do with hunting and not with ego or showing off.

Measure everything you hear against your dog's personality. And think about it - if the guy who "knows it all" doesn't know your dog's personality, he doesn't know it all.

I'll stop here.

Enjoy it!

 

[Skoghund]

Shawnee's advice is 100% spot on. I try to impress on people here that basic obedience is the key stone to training a dog. If you don't get that in place you are wasteing your time with the rest.

 

[ArmedBear]

... I absolutely, positively guarantee you that not everyone who belongs to hunting dog clubs is a good dog man, or is worth listening to, or even should ever have a dog. And that is the Gospel Truth.

It's even truer than that.

However, in such clubs, you can find people who are good to listen to, and people who respect the difference between breeds and individual dogs. Ditto for shotgun ranges. Some shooting advice is worth its weight in gold, other advice is utter bull****.

Discernment is an important skill to cultivate as a human. You'll need it even if you hire a professional trainer.

 

[ImARugerFan]

Thanks for the tips guys. I'd kind of given up hope on him ever being any sort of hunting dog at all. The dog is getting better with basic obedience as time goes on. He'll sit, lay down, or go in his kennel on command, but will resist coming to me if he suspects I'm up to something. For instance I'll take him out for a walk through a field and the woods and he'll stay within 10 yards of me the whole time, and run back to me if I whistle or call him, however he won't come all the way back to me, he'll stay just out of my reach so I can't reach him and put a leash on. He's definitely not dumb, just annoying at times. He is not the least bit gun shy, so that's a positive thing.

 

[Cougfan2]

You might want to consider a shock collar for training, but you need to be very careful how you use it and should research it. I know this is a controversial issue and some people are dead set against, but used properly (NEVER OUT OF ANGER) they can be a very effective training tool. Seek out a professional trainer and hire them as a coach if you have the bucks. I had a problem with my dog not whoaing and it only took a couple of zaps for him to get it. Again I emphasize get some advice on use from a professional trainer that has used training collars and again NEVER OUT OF ANGER!!!

 

[ImARugerFan]

That's what I've heard. I think he would respond very well to a collar if used properly, just haven't had the cash to throw down for one yet. He roams freely in about 1 acre of your property within an invisible fence never leaving, so he certainly responds well to the zaps.

 

[Skoghund]

If the dog won't come right to you try a little square of cheese. when he comes up to you make him sit, give the cheese and put on the lead. once that works stop giving the cheese.

People who use electric collars on dogs should have them tried out on themselves. Lazy mans way of training a dog.

 

[Cougfan2]

Skoghund, I have trained several bird dogs. I only had to use the collar on the one Brittany. You're entitled to your opinion, but you don't know me and you don't know the circumstances in which I use the collar.

 

[ImARugerFan]

People who use electric collars on dogs should have them tried out on themselves. Lazy mans way of training a dog.

I don't think you understand how they work. Generally the dog will only get zapped a few times the first time they use it, and it will be preceded by beeps or vibration. After a few times, simply hearing the beeps or feeling the vibration will be enough to get the dog to listen. Using treats for training is very effective in many cases, but it may not be enough to get a dog to come to you when they take off after a deer or another dog or something. Also, my dog tends to be very weary of whether or not I actually have a treat in my hand or not.

 

[Shawnee]

"...however he won't come all the way back to me, he'll stay just out of my reach so I can't reach him and put a leash on."


Would almost bet someone has given him reason to dislike/fear the leash by improper use - or perhaps equipment that has hurt him. Make sure he has a comfortable collar adjusted right. You might try walking/working him on a long, light rope (30ft. or so) for brief periods for a while and gradually shorten it. But make sure you (and anyone else using a leash on him) are handing the leash right. Also...

Don't put the leash on him only when the Fun is over and it's time for another stretch of being cooped up. Put it on him for a couple minutes - practice a couple easy commands or walk 50yds. with it on, reward him for them - then take it off and continue your other work or walk. In other words - teach him the leash doesn't automatically mean something he views as negative.

Remember - he's your friend. You don't have to always agree with his opinion but you should always know what his opinion is.

 

[Shawnee]

I know there are situations in which the electric collar can be an effective and humane tool that produces something good.
I'm thankful for subjective reasons that I've always been able to avoid using one.
The real problem isn't actually the concept of the electric collar, or even the shock the collar gives. It is the abuse of the dog with the collar either through ignorance, impatience, or cruelty. And, to our discredit and deserved embarrassment, our species is rather noted for ignorance, impatience and cruelty.

 

[ArmedBear]

when he comes up to you make him sit, give the cheese and put on the lead. once that works stop giving the cheese.

LOL

A good way to introduce these things, and to reinforce them, and to create positive associations.

Also a good way to get a "hard" dog run over by a truck. IMO you're teaching him that coming when he's called is a neat trick.

He'll do it as long as there's nothing more interesting to him than cheese, or a pet on the head. When there is, he'll blow you off.

Most VHD's are "hard" dogs. Not all are, but I've been to enough trainings to see a lot of dogs in action and most are not exactly born to be obedient little wallflowers. They're bred to be independent, curious, energetic, and assertive. They'd be useless as bird dogs if they weren't.

Dogs also have interests of their own, and a hierarchy of those interests. A dog who loves running in the field, who knows he'll get treats at home, but only gets to go in the field and romp for an hour or so, won't give 2 ****s about treats in the field. I know some people believe dogs are dumb, but they seem smart enough to think, "I can get cheese later, but right now running across the highway after that rabbit is more FUN!!!" Between having a dog maimed or killed, and giving the dog a zap on the collar, I choose the zap.

Some dogs are natural "pleasers". Others do need some negative consequences. So far, I haven't seen pinch collars, slip leads, etc. that are 200 yards long. Let me know if you do.

That said, I wouldn't use an e-collar without professional, hands-on assistance first. We worked with a one-on-one trainer who started with us, first, and the dogs after that. If in doubt about a particular situation, we'll err on the side of caution, and don't and won't use it in that situation. This is equally true of ANY training tools and techniques. Ditto for using anything in anger. It's wrong, and it will mess up your dog and you. Our dogs live inside with us, share the couch with us, climb in bed with us, lick off our used dinner plates. We're not exactly into beating them...

Treats were great to teach our older dog to come, sit, and do parlor tricks, but useless to teach her obedience in adverse circumstances.

Her natural drives are very strong, and they're not always compatible with the human world, nor can "treat training" always deal with them (i.e. between getting a half-pound of filet mignon and trying to kill the neighbor's cat, she wouldn't choose the steak.)

A lot of trainers do have you try the thing on yourself first. They feel like "e-stim" used by physical therapists.

E-collars are not for beating your dog remotely! They have a place, though, if and only if used properly.

Unless you're calling people like Ronnie Smith lazy or something...

 

[ArmedBear]

Bottom line?

There's a lot to all of this! There's a lot of if, then, but, maybe, on the other hand. Dogs are relatively complex beings, "dumber than humans, but smarter than trainers" as I've heard said.

Get help! It's worth it. It's all fun, if you make it fun. It needs to be fun -- in the big picture -- for the dog, and it sure helps if it's fun for you.

It can't hurt to test our your dog's natural ability to find and point. It can't hurt to expose him to pointing a wing, and it's good to keep him from being gunshy. He needn't have the obedience of a circus dog in order to point a wing or get used to "bang".

I know some people with a very birdy Vizsla. Poor dog is gunshy, because they never popped a blank over her, for a year of training. Not a great thing for the dog or the humans.

If you have any doubts, seek real help. Don't make your dog gunshy, or develop other undesirable behaviors.

 

[Cougfan2]

Our dogs live inside with us, share the couch with us, climb in bed with us, lick off our used dinner plates.

It used to be the old school theory of some bird hunters that if you treated your dog as a pet as well as a hunting dog you would spoil them for hunting. Nothing could be further from the truth. The more contact you and positive interaction with your dog, the more they will want to please you.

 

[ArmedBear]

I've seen some great hunting dogs that are also "pets".

It actually can take more extra effort for the humans than the dog. Sooner or later, your hunting dog will have to do something he doesn't feel like doing. It takes more fortitude to stand your ground if you are more emotionally attached to the dog.

I think that, perhaps, it's the "lazy" trainer who can't have a "pet" dog and also hunt that dog.

 

[Shawnee]

I park my car and cycle and lawn mower in the garage. My dog sleeps on the floor beside the bed. The horse had to sleep in the barn though.