Do Not Reduce .38 Spcl Load

[otisrush]

I'm considering a 125gr TMJ FN .38 Spcl load. (This would be my first foray into the world of .38 Spcl.)

My Speer #14 manual has "Do Not Reduce" for the Start Charge, and Max Charge listed for each powder for this bullet. My understanding is that with a smaller charge there is a danger of the bullet's jacket coming loose and lodging in the barrel - or something like that.

My question: This load data is basically saying, for a given powder, there is one and only one load? It feels a little weird starting out with the max (and the min - they're the same) as the starting point - I've internalized so much this concept of starting lite and working your way up.

Am I correct in concluding that loads with DNR mean load only the one load shown? I presume so since "Follow the data in the manual" carries more weight in the list of reloading rules in my head than "Start low and work your way up".

Thx!

OR

 

[Lost Sheep]

Thanks for asking our advice

I'm considering a 125gr TMJ FN .38 Spcl load. (This would be my first foray into the world of .38 Spcl.)

My Speer #14 manual has "Do Not Reduce" for the Start Charge, and Max Charge listed for each powder for this bullet. My understanding is that with a smaller charge there is a danger of the bullet's jacket coming loose and lodging in the barrel - or something like that.

My question: This load data is basically saying, for a given powder, there is one and only one load? It feels a little weird starting out with the max (and the min - they're the same) as the starting point - I've internalized so much this concept of starting lite and working your way up.

Am I correct in concluding that loads with DNR mean load only the one load shown? I presume so since "Follow the data in the manual" carries more weight in the list of reloading rules in my head than "Start low and work your way up".

Thx!

OR

This is where judgement comes in. Loading manuals are a guide. A hard guide (as opposed to a soft guide), but only a guide. Every publisher gets their data from (ulitmately) a ballistics lab wherein they load rounds using a particular brand of brass, a brand of primers and measured powder from a given batch and the bullets they cite. It is axiomatic that a different lab probably using different components (even if they use the same batch of powder) will produce differing results.

So. when using a new load recipe, I ALWAYS check multiple recipe sources. I start with the powder manufacturer's web site, then the bullet maker's web site of your chosen bullet (if they have a web site), for they know their products and certainly test them well. Also, observe what firearm was used for testing.

Armed with a few, or several, loading manuals' recipes you will see a range of loads, low to high, within which to experiment in your own (minor size, of course) ballistics lab. Make no mistake. Every handloader is operating his/her own ballistics lab. In which safety is one's own responsibility.

So, yes, follow the data and instructions in the manual(s). But do not be blind to the truth that variations between labs, conditions, firearms and peripheral components give room for slight variation in the recipes. Always with the knowing that you are responsible for the safety of your own ballistics lab. This is why most reloaders keep and consult multiple manuals.

My question: This load data is basically saying, for a given powder, there is one and only one load?

In short, there are many load recipes. Sometimes you have to consult multiple manuals to find the range or possibilities.

Be safe. Always, All Ways.

Lost Sheep

 

[Dudedog]

HHmmm what powder are they saying do not reduce? H110 or 296?
You are not supposed to reduce H110 or 296 loads but with most other powders I don't see it being and issue.

I have had no issues loading light 357 with HP38, Universal clays, Bullseye, Titegroup and others, can't see that .38 would be different. (light 38 loads in .357 cases.)

If you go way to low you will stick a bullet in the barrel. A pain but not an issue as long as you catch it and don't fire another round.

 

[otisrush]

For the bullet I referenced every powder is DNR. See below the page from the manual.

My understanding the concern is not creating a "normal" squib load. The concern is a scenario where an early spike of pressure causes the bullet to break apart - having the bullet's core leave the barrel but leaving the jacket lodged in the barrel. The danger of this situation, it seems to me, is you get the catastrophic blocked barrel situation, following a round that sounds and behaves normally. (As opposed to a "normal" squib - where if there is - for example - no powder - it's apparent from the sound and the feel that something is askew. And, consequently, should be investigated.)

 

[noylj]

Call Speer and find out what their concern is.
Folks have been loading light charges of .38 special for at least 60 years without issue.
There was some mystery/problem with 125gn bullets and Blue dot several years ago. Didn't understand at the time what the concern was, since it had been working well for me for several decades.
Appears that 125gn bullets are some mysterious force of nature in .38 Spl that can cause the end of the world.
Speer must know something that Hornady doesn't, as Hornady has LOTS of start/max loads for 125gn bullets and .38 Spl.
I wouldn't shoot a powder or bullet that required me to start at the max load. With the range in performance for different lots of powders, different COL, different case volumes, different primer performance, different chambers, and what ever else, I just wouldn't do it. I certainly would not use any other bullet with that data.
Also, if they have proof of the great "detonation" myth being true, I would suggest they print their data.

 

[Officers'Wife]

I wonder if that's why my brother threw my Speer manual in the trash can.

 

[OYE]

Yes, Speer has been putting that in their manuals for quite some time now.
Obviously bogus information or they wouldn't have put it in there. What
could Speer possibly know about it ? You'd think they been making bullets for several decades or something. Anyway the same outfit that owns Speer also owns RCBS. So what's that tell you ? We intend to take it upon ourselves to call them up Monday morning and bring it to their attention. If anyone has any other discrepancies they would like to point out in the manuals please let us know ASAP. OYE

 

[TfflHndn]

Speer explains it on the last paragraph of p. 872 and going over onto page 873 of the manual. No mention of jacket separation. It's related to caution over the higher resistance of jacketed bullets in guns with large chamber throats and excessive barrel/cylinder gaps. Reducing charges in those conditions increases changes of a squib. The info in the manual doesn't do you much good if you don't read it.

 

[LiveLife]

I'm considering a 125gr TMJ FN .38 Spcl load.

My understanding is that with a smaller charge there is a danger of the bullet's jacket coming loose and lodging in the barrel - or something like that.

TMJ (Total Metal Jacket) is a registered trademark of ATK (now Vista Outdoor) which Speer is part of. TMJ is copper plated bullet and plating cannot come off.

I think the "Do Not Reduce" may be a concern regarding sticking a bullet in the barrel but different pistols have different tolerances and at what powder charge for 125 gr TMJ bullet will stick in the barrel will depend on different variables like barrel's groove/bore diameter, barrel length, powder type, etc.

 

[Spade5]

TfflHndn nailed it

It is the heavier jacketed bullets. I have been loading 158 grain jacketed for years and they will not even publish a load for that bullet.

Now I don't do light loads.

Most of the newer manuals show lighter loads than the old ones and the argument is we have better methods of checking pressure now.

It is hard for me to believe that so many people lucked out for so many years because we didn't know what the real pressure was.

 

[otisrush]

Speer explains it on the last paragraph of p. 872 and going over onto page 873 of the manual. No mention of jacket separation. It's related to caution over the higher resistance of jacketed bullets in guns with large chamber throats and excessive barrel/cylinder gaps. Reducing charges in those conditions increases changes of a squib. The info in the manual doesn't do you much good if you don't read it.

Thanks very much. I appreciate it.

OR

 

[243winxb]

DNR 125gr Speer Gold Dot- 38 Special

The Alliant powders listed in the photo are below +P loadings for 38 Special in the Reloaders Guide 2013 and on Alliants website.Yes the Speer #8 (maybe others) should go in the trash. Its know to produce over pressure loadings at maximums listed.

 

[Walkalong]

The old half jacket bullet was the one where they warned not to reduce loads or it might leave the jacket in the barrel.

These they are just worried about squibs. 125 Gr jacketed aren't bad, 140s are decent, but the long bearing surface 158s are pretty easy to stick in a barrel using light charges, especially with some powders when the charge isn't against the primer when fired.

They are just being careful, and I can hardly blame them, but this is mostly a new thing with Speer in their more recent manuals. Speer # 11 has a start and max for almost all of the recipes in .38 Spl. Speer #13 has both for the +P loads but only the max and a DNR for the standard ones.

Bottom line is you need to be careful when loading light with jacketed (Or plated) bullets in big cases where the max pressure is low to begin with.

Test any light load thoroughly to make sure it will always get the bullet out of all of your guns. Test in in the cold as well as the heat and test it powder forward as well. Or always remember to point the muzzle up to get the powder back against the primer. Some powders are more position sensitive than others. You might be surprised how much velocity can be lost powder forward in some applications with some powders, and almost all powders lose some.

 

[243winxb]

158 gr Jacketed- 38 Special

Alliant droped 158 gr jacketed data in 2013 for 38 special. There is now 1 loading under +P data. What Walkalong said +1. I think another problem is the long barrels of rifles, where bullets may not make it out the muzzle.

 

[Jim Watson]

I saw a guy stick just the jacket of a Speer 158 gr JSP, a bullet of regular construction with the jacket coming down partway over the ogive and a cannelure; not the old 160 gr 7/8 jacket. He did not want to sully his barrel with those dirty old lead wadcutters so he loaded JSPs lightly.

When the jacket stuck in the bore, the core continued on and hit the target. We were wearing ear protection and did not notice the difference in report. The next shot also hit the target, as did several others. Range was only 7 yards. He did not notice anything wrong until he cleaned the gun and felt the "jump" as the patch hit the bulge.
We went back to the range and dug in the berm. We found the core from the stuck jacket, and the jacket itself, packed with cardboard from being pushed through the target by the following shot. We also found the following bullet, its exposed lead nose molded to the shape it indented in the bottom of the stuck jacket. A rare occurrence, but it happened.
At the time, S&W replaced the barrel on his M15 for $65.
He went to standard listed loads.

So it seems Speer might know what they are doing, not recommending powderpuff loads with jacketed bullets at low end black powder pressures.

 

[Rule3]

Why speculate, why call Speer?

SPEER #14

38 Special page 872

Read the bottom of page 872 and top of page 873.

It explains why they post this information.

 

[Bigdog57]

I and some reloading buddies have done lighter .38Special loads for decades. But we generally use cast bullets. One guy had a light round shot from his lever carbine so slow we could easily see it in flight. A bit too slow, he upped it a bit afterwards. When we use jacketed loads it is for more velocity, not less.

 

[otisrush]

Why speculate, why call Speer?

SPEER #14

38 Special page 872

Read the bottom of page 872 and top of page 873.

It explains why they post this information.

The *real* learning out of this thread are from TfflHndn & Rule3: I need to open my eyes and read the blasted manual.

OR

 

[Officers'Wife]

Test any light load thoroughly to make sure it will always get the bullet out of all of your guns. Test in in the cold as well as the heat and test it powder forward as well. Or always remember to point the muzzle up to get the powder back against the primer. Some powders are more position sensitive than others. You might be surprised how much velocity can be lost powder forward in some applications with some powders, and almost all powders lose some.

OK, remember... Tulala on board. Powder forward?

 

[Sarge7402]

I just pulled out my old speer manual. didn't have a load for the 125 TMJ but there was one for the 150. For each powder listed it had a minimum and maximum charge - usually a full grain apart. As long as your charge is between the two limits you can use it.

 

[LiveLife]

remember... Tulala on board. Powder forward?

With you on THR as newbie reloader asking reloading questions, you are not a Tulala but a smart cookie. Dang, now I need to make some oatmeal raisin cookies.

Large volume cases like .38 Spl with denser powders like W231/HP-38 (and even with fluffy powders like Unique/Red Dot/Promo), powder charge won't take up much space and will rest on the bottom of the case when the revolver (or carbine/rifle like your case) is aimed. When the primer ignites, the flash will burn the powder charge from top down.

The preferred powder charge burn is from end of case (primer end) towards the bullet for more consistent/even push that will improve accuracy. Some powders are more sensitive to this and they are called "position sensitive" powders (before someone objects, actually all powders can be position sensitive if low enough charges are used). For this reason, many reloaders will tilt the pistol forward/back to ensure powder charge is against the primer/bullet prior to slowly raising/lowering the pistol to fire. Some even use filling material to pack the powder charge so it is pushed against the primer.

I think some prefer the "powder forward" as the expanding gas from primer scatters the powder charge less instead of scattering the powder granule inside the case (some even warn against detonation/explosion from this). We may need to add this topic to the "Advanced Reloading" thread and do some range testing.

 

[Officers'Wife]

With you on THR as newbie reloader asking reloading questions, you are not a Tulala but a smart cookie. Dang, now I need to make some oatmeal raisin cookies.

Large volume cases like .38 Spl with denser powders like W231/HP-38 (and even with fluffy powders like Unique/Red Dot/Promo), powder charge won't take up much space and will rest on the bottom of the case when the revolver (or carbine/rifle like your case) is aimed. When the primer ignites, the flash will burn the powder charge from top down.

The preferred powder charge burn is from end of case (primer end) towards the bullet for more consistent/even push that will improve accuracy. Some powders are more sensitive to this and they are called "position sensitive" powders (before someone objects, actually all powders can be position sensitive if low enough charges are used). For this reason, many reloaders will tilt the pistol forward/back to ensure powder charge is against the primer/bullet prior to slowly raising/lowering the pistol to fire. Some even use filling material to pack the powder charge so it is pushed against the primer.

I think some prefer the "powder forward" as the expanding gas from primer scatters the powder charge less instead of scattering the powder granule inside the case (some even warn against detonation/explosion from this). We may need to add this topic to the "Advanced Reloading" thread and do some range testing.

Interesting, is that why my brother is always having me cut felt and styrofoam wads when he loads for Dad's .45 revolver?

 

[LiveLife]

Interesting, is that why my brother is always having me cut felt and styrofoam wads when he loads for Dad's .45 revolver?

Perhaps your brother does know some things about reloading?

 

[moxie]

Besides which, IMO there's not much point in shooting relatively expensive jacketed bullets at mousefart velocities. Makes more sense to shoot lead. Much cheaper. Same or better results. Save your jacketed bullets for speedier loads.

 

[Walkalong]

OK, remember... Tulala on board. Powder forward?

If one has a chrono the difference in velocities is easy to check. For powder back fire six shots over the chrono after tilting the barrel straight up and slowly lowering it to level for each shot. The do six after pointing the barrel straight down and slowly bringing it up to level for each shot. I also test some "powder level" by holding the barrel level, shaking it a bit side to side and shooting. Some powders do crappy powder forward, but pretty good powder level.

With nearly all pistol powders you will see a loss of velocity powder forward. With many the "powder level" velocity will be between the powder back and powder forward velocity.

Some powders at light levels lose so much velocity powder forward they will stick a bullet easily. I had one with a 125 gr bullet that did around 900 FPS powder back, but would stick bullets powder forward. That powder did fine loaded hot, but not loaded light.

Check out Load #93. This one isn't too awful bad, but only got two stars out of five. Three stars is good, four is very good, five is few and far between.