Do we have a Constitutional Right to not have Universal Background Checks?

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No one is forcing the buyer to complete a Form 4473, hence no violation of the 5th Amendment. A buyer is free to buy a gun from someone who is not a licensed dealer.

That's the point of the thread. There are a number of efforts to force us to do just that, and require that a "background check" using the information on that or similar form be performed for all purchases.

I think it is interesting to see the pressures acting in opposite directions. Some of us are getting our "backgrounds checked" (i.e., entered in a dossier in a central registry) and some of us are being allowed "constitutional carry" (i.e., not being required to be individually documented to bear our arms.)
 
Unfortunately, the appearance of justice has become the appearance of Constitutionality which may or may not be as written in the Constitution but in the opinions of one of the Justices of the Supreme Court. The moment "shall not be infringed" gave leeway for "reasonable restrictions" the whole document became a moot point.
 
Reality Check

Reality Check Boys and Girls,

If you truly believe that background checks are a violation of the 2nd Amendment based on the theory that the 2A means unrestricted firearm ownership then that means you believe that convicted felons, the mentally insane (i.e. severely mentally ill) should be allowed to own firearms.

If you object to felons and the mentally insane ,even if you believe only felons convicted of heinous crimes, should not be allowed to own firearms then you have accepted the theory the 2A is in fact a right subject to restrictions.

In which case we are only discussing what groups of people you want to be disarmed.
 
Reality Check Boys and Girls,

If you truly believe that background checks are a violation of the 2nd Amendment based on the theory that the 2A means unrestricted firearm ownership then that means you believe that convicted felons, the mentally insane (i.e. severely mentally ill) should be allowed to own firearms.

If you object to felons and the mentally insane ,even if you believe only felons convicted of heinous crimes, should not be allowed to own firearms then you have accepted the theory the 2A is in fact a right subject to restrictions.

In which case we are only discussing what groups of people you want to be disarmed.
I object to neither. Keep in mind that prior to 1968 both had legal access to firearms. The crime stats seem to have neither increased or decreased since that time. I can't help but wonder if the "keeping guns out of the hands of criminals" was the "blood in the streets" cry of 1968. For that to be a point you must show-

A: that keeping guns out of the hands of <whatever> has been successful
B: That success has created a more peaceful society.

If I want emotional arguments with weeping and wailing I'll watch Oprah.
 
The Court didn't even suggest that "reasonable restrictions" are OK under the Second Amendment. Like I said in the earlier post, a thorough reading of DC v. Heller bears that out; to wit:


Although we do not undertake an
exhaustive historical analysis today of the full scope of the
Second Amendment, nothing in our opinion should be
taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the
possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or
laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places
such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing
conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of
arms.[sup][size=-2]26[/size][/sup]

26. We identify these presumptively lawful regulatory measures only
as examples; our list does not purport to be exhaustive.​

The Court did not undertake an analysis of the presumptively lawful regulatory measures. The Court hasn't said one way or the other.

Woody
It does say commercial sale of arms.
Citizen to citizen sales are not commercial they are private.
Perhaps I'm reading too much into it, but Heller seems to indicate that that's an area that's out of bounds?
 
It does say commercial sale of arms.
Citizen to citizen sales are not commercial they are private.
Perhaps I'm reading too much into it, but Heller seems to indicate that that's an area that's out of bounds?

Private sales in some states have restrictions in that gun owners guns are registered. The commercial aspect is moot in these places since all gun transfers end up coming under those laws. Strict scrutiny of the Second Amendment would make even just collecting a sales tax on arms unconstitutional.

Woody
 
What ever the congress creates only applies in the areas where congress has been given authority. Whatever the States create is only valid in the jurisdiction of the States. Let us suppose the absurd for a moment. Sacremento and the Governor pass and sign a law that says you can kick your dog on any day that ends in Y. BUT! Congress says you can not kick your dog at all. How does it work? If you are kicking your dog outside of the fence of Twenty-Nine Palms. There is nothing the Commander of the camp can do to you legally. Bring your dog on the camp and give it a swift kick and hoo-boy watch out. The CG has total jurisdiction because the Congress says he does.

So the long way around the barn is Congress can not make universal background checks on citizens in the States unless you live in places like Fort Knox, National parks, or the Guam, Puerto Rico. The States being independent nations in a federal union can enact jackass laws like universal background checks or they can remove them. That is up to the people of the States and their elected representatives to hash out every election.


Or, perhaps we say that if your dog, or your dog's sire and/or dam were ever sold or moved in commerce across state lines then they fall under the jurisdiction of the federal Congress' ability to protect and regulate interstate trade. So when they write a law about kicking your dog all they have to do is say "... mayest not kick any dog that has ever moved in interstate commerce, or the sire, grandsire, dam, or granddam, of said dog has ever moved in interstate commerce..." and you've got federal jurisdiction over dog-kicking.

I can only imagine you've heard that argument before.

And I will suppose with a high degree of reasonable certainty that you aren't a fan. ;)


But them's the breaks. That's where we are, and while we can wish and hope and plead and even pretend that Congress cannot do this, fact is they do. And until the final arbiters of Constitutionality, the SCOTUS, says they can't -- they will. And you can spend a long time in prison being as right as you want to be if you violate federal law.
 
I object to neither.

Then that makes you a Libertarian. And in the minority.

How many politicians have you heard of that have ran successfully for office based a platform of giving people convicted of domestic violence and felonies and severely mentally ill the right to own guns?

If I want emotional arguments with weeping and wailing I'll watch Oprah.

You don't need to watch Oprah. Just watch the news on TV and read news reports. Emotions are the most common tactic used by anti-gunners to gain support for more restrictive gun control laws.
 
The universal background checks are nothing more than forcing everyone to transfer guns through an FFL and basically registering guns. You never see the so called universal background checks give an exemption to people with a CHL or just allow people to call in to verify someone's background. It ALWAYS involves an FFL and 4473 paperwork and that is the big problem I have with these type of bills. Once you force all sales through FFL dealers, then you may have somewhat of a registration system.
 
We identify these presumptively lawful regulatory measures only
as examples; our list does not purport to be exhaustive

The Court did not say these statutes were lawful, but are only presumptively lawful. The Court made this distinction on account it would be illogical to consider unlawful statutes. Of the three laws cited by Old Fluff, they are all considered lawful for purposes of examination only, but any of the three could eventually be found to be unconstitutional.
 
Of the three laws cited by Old Fluff, they are all considered lawful for purposes of examination only, but any of the three could eventually be found to be unconstitutional.

Any statute, or the enforcement thereof, is considered to be lawful until such time the matter is brought before a court and found to be otherwise.

Thereafter it can be appealed to a higher court, and if review is not rejected can be brought before the Supreme Court (presuming they agree to consider it). But when they render an opinion that's the end of the road.

The alternative to that is to start a rebellion, and my feeling is that they're isn't much support for doing it. :rolleyes:
 
Acquiring and disposing property is part of the right to keep and bear arms.

But, as we know, government has taken power it should not have.
 
Actually the United States incarcerates 707 people per 100,000 which is the highest of all industrialized nations in the world.

And the vast majority of those people are not dangerous.
 
Or, perhaps we say that if your dog, or your dog's sire and/or dam were ever sold or moved in commerce across state lines then they fall under the jurisdiction of the federal Congress' ability to protect and regulate interstate trade. So when they write a law about kicking your dog all they have to do is say "... mayest not kick any dog that has ever moved in interstate commerce, or the sire, grandsire, dam, or granddam, of said dog has ever moved in interstate commerce..." and you've got federal jurisdiction over dog-kicking.

I can only imagine you've heard that argument before.

And I will suppose with a high degree of reasonable certainty that you aren't a fan. ;)


But them's the breaks. That's where we are, and while we can wish and hope and plead and even pretend that Congress cannot do this, fact is they do. And until the final arbiters of Constitutionality, the SCOTUS, says they can't -- they will. And you can spend a long time in prison being as right as you want to be if you violate federal law.

The People are the final arbiters of the constitutionality of any congressional law or the unconstitutional application of the same and not the supreme Court. To argue different is to buy into the corruptions and deceptions of those who seek to take on unauthorized power.

There was a man some years ago who is said to be perfect and without sin who was hung on a cross and died. There was another man who became the first man's follower and had his head cleaved from his body. Sitting in jail is nothing compared to dying. Even Adolph Hilter spent a year or two in jail so sitting in a prison for being right with the letter and spirit of the Declaration of Independence and the Articles and the Constitution is nothing. Jail is just another place to live for a while.
 
A person is supposed to be presumed innocent of any crime until found guilty in a court of law in this country; it is one of our core legal principles. And yet, when buying a firearm, we are required to prove our innocence first? Where is the presumption of innocence? You are not required to establish your status before exercising any of the rest of your civil rights, so why is it required for this one?
Background checks are BS, IMO
Felons are also prohibited from voting. Does a person have to prove s/he is not a felon in order to be allowed to vote?
 
The whole question is moot. There is no such thing as a universal background check. Mentally unstable get a pass due to medical record privacy, career criminals get a pass as they buy on the black market. Only good guys and really stupid criminals end up going through background checks.
 
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ConstitutionCowboy said:
...The Judicial power was set in the Supreme Court. Congress established the rest of the courts, and those other courts do not have the full extent of the juducial power assigned to the Supreme Court. To say the power was set to the 'federal courts' is disingenuous. ....
Wrong. What the Constitution says is (emphasis added):
...The judicial power of the United States, shall be vested in one Supreme Court, and in such inferior courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish....
 
Culpeper,

You create a fantasy world. All your "argument" describes a world you believe in but does not actually exist. The world you imagine as you sit in your easy chair has no real relationship to the world that actually exists outside your front door. We can tell this because what actually happens here in the real world is unlike what you describe.

For example, you claim:
Culpeper said:
...contrary to most gun peoples perceptions the so-called supremacy clause does not make federal superior to the laws of the States,...
But in fact that does not describe how the Supremacy clause is actually applied in the real world to affect the lives and property of real people.

For an example of the Supremacy Clause in action and being applied to cause an actual effect in the real world see Testa v. Katt, 330 U.S. 386 (1947). In that case the Supreme Court ruled that the state courts of Rhode Island may not decline to hear a lawsuit brought under a federal statute. The Court in so ruling said (330 U, S. 386, at 389):
...For we cannot accept the basic premise on which the Rhode Island Supreme Court held that it has no more obligation to enforce a valid penal law of the United States than it has to enforce a penal law of another state or a foreign country. Such a broad assumption flies in the face of the fact that the States of the Union constitute a nation. It disregards the purpose and effect of Article VI, § 2 of the Constitution which provides: 'This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.' ...

And a recent state court decision in a case much discussed on gun board the Oregon Supreme Court explicitly recognizes the correct application of the Supremacy Clause. In Willis v. Winters, 253 P.3d 1058 (Or., 2011), ruled that Michael Winters, as Sheriff of Jackson County, was required under Oregon law to issue a concealed handgun license to Cynthia Willis even though she was a medical marijuana user. The case did not substantively address the federal law issue. In fact, the Oregon Supreme Court specifically noted (at pp. 1065 - 1066, emphasis added):
...Neither is the statute [the Oregon CHL law] an obstacle to Congress's purposes in the sense that it interferes with the ability of the federal government to enforce the policy that the Gun Control Act expresses. A marijuana user's possession of a CHL may exempt him or her from prosecution or arrest under ORS 166.250(1)(a) and (b), but it does not in any way preclude full enforcement of the federal law by federal law enforcement officials...

In other words: Ms. Willis would not be arrested by Oregon LEOs or prosecuted under Oregon law for carrying a concealed handgun; but she can still be arrested by federal LEOs, prosecuted under federal law and sent to federal prison for being a prohibited person in possession of a gun in violation of 18 USC 922(g)(3).

So real life events demonstrate that your view of the Supremacy Clause in fantasy. You do not understand how this actually happen in real life.

Culpeper said:
...The answer does not lie in any court case....
And again you're demonstrably wrong. Since the founding of our nation (and before) the opinions of courts on matters of law have affected the lives and property or real people. Those opinions do not corresponded to your opinions as you've set them out here. Your opinions as set out here are divorced from the ways in which thing actually happen and things are actually done in real life in the real world.

Culpeper said:
The People are the final arbiters of the constitutionality of any congressional law or the unconstitutional application of the same and not the supreme Court....
To believe that is to be delusional. It is not how things have happened or how things have been done in real life in the real world since the founding of our nation. While it might be an interesting conceit it is no more real than Tolkien's Middle Earth or Oz.

To be sure, the People can exercise a form of ultimate authority through the political process by electing representatives who will enact laws which can, within constitutional limits, modify the effects of court decisions. This was illustrated not too long ago by the case of Kelo v. City of New London, 545 U.S. 469 (2005) as an example of this phenomenon. It was a ruling on a technical point of eminent domain law (specifically involving the "takings" clause of the Fifth Amendment applied to the States through the 14th Amendment and the meaning of "public use"). The result was found to be unsatisfactory by many. As a consequence, the legislatures of 42 States revised those States' eminent domain laws to avoid a Kelo result. "Checks and balances" at work.

And if the manner in which courts apply the Constitution is sufficiently unsatisfactory to enough people, we can, through the political process, seek to amend the Constitution, as provided in the Constitution.

Your wishes that the world be as you've described can not make it so. Those of us who want to deal with real issues in the real world need to understand how things work, not how we wish they worked.
 
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Felons are also prohibited from voting.

This is a popular myth. Convicted felons vote in the vast majority of states.

In some states convicted felons vote after serving their prison term. Other states require completion of prison term plus probation. Some states require completion of prison term plus probation plus parole.


http://felonvoting.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=286
 
It is a wonderful fact of life and humanity that we each may earnestly believe with all our hearts any thing we like.

And it is the, perhaps unique on this planet, rare genius of human beings that we are able to hold both reality as we experience it, and the vagaries of our beliefs, no matter how conflicting, in our minds and operate pragmatically in both realms more or less at once.

No other creature shows evidence of experiencing both the real and the extra-real as we do. It is an evolutionary step of consciousness beyond the mundane, and may be the root of the gift that one day carries us beyond the stars.



But this is THR, so keep a lid on it, OK? :)
 
...To be sure, the People can exercise a form of ultimate authority through the political process by electing representatives who will enact laws which can, within constitutional limits, modify the effects of court decisions. This was illustrated not too long ago by the case of Kelo v. City of New London, 545 U.S. 469 (2005) as an example of this phenomenon...

All that just to say I am right when I say the People have the final say. Some fantasy world huh?

Well I have answered the Marine's question and this thread going too far afield from his original post so I will go read and do something elsewhere.
 
Do we have a Constitutional Right to not have Universal Background Checks (for private gun sales)?

No.

With the government, everything is up for grabs. Every "right" has a work around, a loop hole, an asteriks or a damning supreme court ruling.
 
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