Do you Carry chambered?

[sig87]

Chambered Sig P6

 

[CombatArmsUSAF]

I knew Evela was full of BS as soon as he said he spent $100,000 on training.

Either he has gone to almost every firearms school in the country or attended some super secret ninja school. (Neither one is very likely)

I think I could take every school Mas Ayoob offers for less than $20,000.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...I knew Evela was full of BS as soon as he said he spent $100,000 on training....

Well, he really claimed that his training was in medical school (see his post #183). That jibes with the $100k. However, it really doesn't qualify him to opine on the topic under discussion. Nonetheless, I saw no reason to encourage him in that regards. Note that he also refers to me as a "trained killer."

...Med school, and like 98% of the common carriers reading this now, I have NOT been trained by your name dropped buddies. But you may be interested to know that Massad - I don't know about your buddy "Etc.", lol - is very clear on the effects of panic and stress for most of us, including you my trained killer pal. All of which I learned well at a fine research university....

 

[chuckusaret]

I carry a XD40 and a NAA380 or a LCP with rounds chambered. I believe the split second it takes to chamber a round could get you killed.

 

[Boba Fett]

Remember, as I've said before, and will probably say every time he posts wild, unreasoned opinion as fact,

Evela is most likely a Mall Ninja.
Evela is most likely too young to own a gun and spends his time in video games and watching movies.
Evela presents opinion as fact while contradicting himself endlessly.
Evela likes to cut up other people's quotes from various threads without even linking to those threads in a crazy attempt to prove his points.

 

[Boba Fett]

I hadn't read much about Ayoob before, but this thread got me a great deal more interested. And as it happened, I came across this article of Ayoob's which he says:

A man not confident enough in his ability to carry a chamber-loaded semiautomatic pistol is better served with a revolver. Operating the slide before firing is a complex psycho-motor skill of the kind that does not survive stress well, and it's normally a two-handed operation. The history of gunfighting shows us at least half the time, we will fire our handgun one-handed when attacked by surprise. The gun must be in a condition that allows one-handed operation.

Click here for the full article http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_167_28/ai_110457294/

Now, let's look at Mall Ninja Evela who said in response to me (mine is the italic part of the quote below) the following about Ayoob:

Posted by Evela in post 183
"Wait...so you're saying that because law enforcement are more trained than we are AND carry one in the pipe, we who are not as trained should not carry one in the pipe...what?"

That's exactly right. LE is trained to carry professionally and are better equipped to take the risks. Most CCW users have never been in a firefight, and will suffer much more stress. Fine motor skills are the first to go. Read Ayoob for details.

So...still think your all that Mall Ninja Evela.

 

[conw]

LOL, Boba, good find. But frankly there is no need to call names when his arguments are (now at least) so clearly shown to be wrong. It actually kinds takes away from what you're saying when you make it so personal.

 

[goofy grape]

Good call Boba. I've been reading Ayoob's writings for years.

 

[Boba Fett]

LOL, Boba, good find. But frankly there is no need to call names when his arguments are (now at least) so clearly shown to be wrong. It actually kinds takes away from what you're saying when you make it so personal.

You may be right Conwict and I will admit that Evela is quite annoying to me. Primarily because of his illogically dangerous statements.

So I guess calling him a Mall Ninja may detract from my point, but to me it is akin to calling a false witness a liar.

And after reading his wild claims, Mall Ninja just fits so well and reminds me of the first Mall Ninja of GlockTalk fame. Maybe I should have called Evela Gecko45


But again, you're probably right Conwict and I'll take it under advisement

 

[DougDubya]

Also, the Israeli method came about because they had Beretta 51's, model 34's and 35's, and Browning Hi-Powers. For the Berettas, the safeties weren't intuitive (one was a crossbolt - pushing in beneath the hammer and the others were levers you had to rotate 180 degress) and the Hi-Powers had the tiniest of thumb paddles.

If they had something with usable safety levers, they'd have not developed the Israeli method.

 

[c919]

It's not even worth it my friends....

This fella is just..... well........ you know...... a.......

 

[Frank Ettin]

...Link to Summit Training (Texas, New Mexico, San Francisco)

Be sure to check out the imbedded video ...

Remember that Evela has been claiming that racking the slide a la Israeli draw is a gross motor skill (and we've seen the Massad Ayoob disagrees). But look at the video. The guy is fast enough (he's an instructor -- he should be), but it looks pretty tricky to me.

Watch carefully:

[1] He draws the gun with his strong hand, brings it up with a bent strong arm just about to the level of the bottom of the rib cage and turns the gun 90 degrees to his weak side.

[2] At about the same time, he is bring up his weak hand to meet the moving gun when it's about 10 inches from his body level with the bottom of his rib cage.

[3] The weak hand meets the gun, and he must grasp the rear of the slide, at the rear cocking serrations, with the thumb and index finger of his weak hand.

[4] He then pushes forward with the strong hand and must have a strong enough grasp with the thumb and index finger of his weak hand to hold the slide back.

[5] Once the slide has been fully retracted, he must release the slide with his weak hand. And he must now turn the gun 90 degrees to his strong hand side and find the gun with his weak hand so that it can assume its part of the two hand firing grip.

Now meeting the moving gun and grabbing the rear cocking serrations between the thumb and index finger of the weak hand look rather more like a fine motor maneuver than a gross motor action. No doubt one can learn to do it quickly, reflexively and consistently, but I think it would take a lot of practice to get to that point.

Compare all that with disengaging the thumb safety on a 1911.

[1] With a little practice, one's thumb will naturally fall on the top of the thumb safety when assuming the firing grip. One can do that easily whether one shoots with a high thumb or a low thumb.

[2] As the gun is drawn and rotated toward the target, the thumb on top of the safety simply presses downward, thus disengaging the thumb safety. (Of course the trigger finger is off the trigger and indexed on the frame -- just as it should be with the Israeli draw.)

[3] That's it -- a simple press downward with the thumb -- a single gross motor action.

 

[WingRider]

I can't believe this hasn't gotten locked yet:banghead: Not very HighRoad, lately. Always loaded, one in the pipe. SA cocked & locked.
Be safe, friends.

 

[conw]

LOL, well, Boba, he is probably a troll at the very least, if not a mall ninja. So if he is a troll you needn't worry about calling him mall ninja any longer, because trolls disappear when you definitively prove them wrong. Although he may later antagonize another related thread when he thinks we have forgotten his trollish nature.

Evela....you're welcome here man, to me this is good-natured ribbing. I get the feeling you don't really mean to cause a ruckus here, but your behavior has been trollish. I welcome you to THR, and just advise you to be more civil and less outlandish

 

[grunt0311]

Locked & Cocked

Kimber Custom TLE II locked & cocked. Somebody put an E-tool in this Zombie

 

[Sam1911]

Now meeting the moving gun and grabbing the rear cocking serrations between the thumb and index finger of the weak hand look rather more like a fine motor maneuver than a gross motor action. No doubt one can learn to do it quickly, reflexively and consistently, but I think it would take a lot of practice to get to that point.

Quickly and surely pinching the rear cocking serrations between thumb and forefinger is a sure-fail technique for most people. The "saddle" grip, using the whole weak hand over the top of the slide, is far easier for most people to execute quickly as it requires less strengh and less precision in the finger placement.

I watch 100s of shooters load and make ready, and unload and show clear, every month, and only those shooters who are very new/inexperienced use the rear-serrations-pinch method. (With a few exceptions.) In general terms, 90% use the "saddle" method, and 10% (usually very experienced competitors) actually pinch the FORWARD section of the slide from underneath. That's a concession to competition and the purpose is to keep the working hand out of the Safety Officer's line of sight so he/she can see the cleared chamber.

So, most folks use the saddle method. It is not, really, a fine motor skill and can be applied quickly in an emergency. However, it can easily injure your weak hand if there are any sharp edges on your sights or you just happen to catch the meat of your palm in an awkward way. I've seen blood drawn this way a number of times.

It is important to have this manuver be a second-nature motion -- as part of the failure drill. TAP (the mag base), RACK (the slide), (reassess the threat), BANG (if a threat still exists).

But, inserting this step into the draw stroke is foolish. Unneccessary for trained shooters -- and distracting, difficult under stress, and an unneccessary failure point for less experienced shooters.

-Sam

 

[middy]

One in the pipe. Unless I'm carrying Plaxican with a Glock...

 

[musicman]

to Quote Tony Soprano...


"There's nothing more useless than an unloaded gun" : )

 

[Cap'n Jack Burntbeard]

One in the pipe, 8 in the mag. Ruger P97DC .45ACP

 

[Carne Frio]

Weapon with one in the chamber=carrying.
Weapon with empty chamber=transporting.
I prefer carrying, ready for business because
I might not have time to chamber a round
when an emergency occurs.

 

[Old Guy]

WOW!

In having a commercial Browning Hi Power, I had to carry it any way but locked and locked!

The wee stiff safety catch was too tight to take off with your thumb.

What I settled on (horizontal shoulder holster) pull back pistol, grip slide, slide/sights, facing the left hand, push gun forward, the slide got dragged out of the fingers when it got to the end of it's travel.

Fire triples, normally strong hand only. Could be two hands? Sometimes.

Changed to Glock 17, then 19 OBH, at 3 O'Clock, chambered round. The exact same every thing, CCW or IDPA match, no surprises.

 

[DHJenkins]

This shoot, er, write first/think later poster makes the usual mistake of thinking the racking is additional step. It's not. I suggest you go back a page or two and you'll understand why.

To load and fire an SA/DA automatic:

1) Load magazine
2) Rack slide
3) Squeeze trigger

To fire an SA/DA automatic with a round in the chamber:

1) Squeeze trigger

To fire an SA/DA automatic without a round in the chamber:

1) Rack slide
2) Squeeze trigger

Do you notice how the SA/DA auto with a round in the chamber only has one step, while the SA/DA auto without a round in the chamber has 2 steps?

It's simple arithmetic, and you only have to count to three!

You may also want to bust out some actual firearm operating manuals. They ALL refer to racking the slide as a single step in the loading/firing sequence.

 

[Frank Ettin]

One thing, Evela. If Mas is such a big fan of the Israeli draw, why doesn't he teach it in his class? Why does he teach carrying the gun with a round chambered.

Now he does prefer the technique of grasping the slide between the index finger and thumb when racking the slide. But that is only in connection with usual administrative management of the gun --NOT in connection with the draw stroke.

 

[wrs840]

I think this has actually been kind of interesting as I follow it.

Maybe THR just needs an Antagonism & Comedy sub-forum to move it to...

Les

 

[conw]

Evela,

The whole "who is the audience of BH?" rhetorical question was designed to show you that, in fact, people other than police officers are, in Ayoob's eyes, capable of benefitting from C&L carry. One of the apparent cornerstones of your argument is that a CHP holder will micturate and be unable to unlatch a safety, while (most? all?) police officers would not, and you used Ayoob's generalized comments on gross vs fine motor skills to justify that.

You also said, verbatim, "I defer to Ayoob and you should, too." Which is actually why I chose to use him when I could have used numerous other authorities/logical arguments to persuade our audience, if not you.

I am debating you on your own terms. And I think I have pretty well defeated some of your earlier, more preposterous premises.

Here's the thing. It doesn't take that much time to go from an "inexperienced CCWer" to a "dedicated practitioner" who carries a gun. A few months, at most, of carrying and shooting a particular gun. And Ayoob himself implies C&L carry is the best way to carry a 1911, the way it was designed to be carried. So why do it any other way? You don't learn to do it the best way by doing it a different way when you start off.

As for whether any character, real or imagined, favors sidesaddle, Israeli, or pigs-in-the-pasture I couldn't care less and never approached that leg of the argument.