coloradokevin
Member
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2008
- Messages
- 3,285
Evela said:I thought I made it clear that racking really doesn't add a step. The gun must follow the same path from holster to presentation whether it is racked or not. It is simply racked on the way. I can tell you it doesn't take much practice for your draw and rack becomes just one smooth movement to presentation.
Respectfully, you didn't make it clear because it simply doesn't make sense. It does in-fact take longer to accomplish what you recommend, and such a movement can be next to impossible to perform in a close combat situation. Believe it or not Evela, a significant number of gun fights have taken place at a 0-3 yard distance. Sometimes your assailant is physically fighting with you when you draw your weapon, and that isn't a good time to be fiddling around with a ridiculously outdated method of drawing a weapon (one which only really existed for the sake of lawyers).
Evela said:Fact is, it is actually pretty common to learn to rack with one hand, a skill that is often taught in real training. Second, if you have less than say 0.2 or 0.3 seconds (you really do need to actually read my posts), you're probably either in, or about to be in hand-to-hand confrontation. A situation in which your primary goal is to escape, so that you CAN draw. Got that?
I think it is time for you to provide some references here Evela. I've had the real training you speak of, and I'm a career police officer for a major police department. Beyond that, I have experience in various forms of competitive shooting, and have taken a number of advanced courses that have been offered to me in the course of my career. Additionally, I've spent enough time operating in a real-world environment with a gun to know that your argument is illogical at best.
Have you ever tried a one-handed slide rack? Seriously, this is not the quickest manuever to perform for anyone, and is often difficult to perform depending on the equipment that you are wearing (belt, holster, etc), and the style of your gun (ramped sights, etc). The one-handed slide rack was developed as a last-ditch effort, primarily for the person who has a gun that needs reloaded during a firefight in which they've lost the use of one hand/arm. It is absolutely NOT a technique that should be used as an everyday way to perform a one-handed draw when preparing your weapon for imminent battle! Clearly a one-handed draw is sometimes used in a firefight, but these situations occur with a loaded/chambered weapon (excluding the type of exceptions I outlined above).
You also mention the possibility of hand-to-hand fighting ensuing before you could draw, and how that doesn't negate your argument for a slower engagement method which requires the use of two hands. Sadly, you couldn't be more wrong in this case, and I truly hope that someone doesn't get themselves killed by using your advice! As I said once already, many modern documented gun fights have happened while the subjects were in contact with each other. I even have personal knowledge of a handful of these incidents that have involved friends of mine who were fighting on the ground with a bad guy when they deployed their weapons!
Just because you are in a hand-to-hand fight does not mean that you can't deploy your firearm. But, if you are in a hand-to-hand fight and have a firearm without a round in the chamber, I hope that you only ever intended to use that firearm as an impact weapon, because you probably won't be able to free both hands to operate the slide of the weapon!
Evela said:Please don't tell me you're making an argument to carry "cocked but NOT locked"! Until or unless you install a custom manual safety on your Glock, it's in Condition Zero - a state that one should avoid until your gun is presented, pointed and ready to fire. Let's stick to the facts.
Yes, that is exactly how you carry a Glock. You can try to argue against such a practice, but it is the same way that these firearms are carried by every police department that fields a Glock (I would estimate that this equates to a few hundred thousand firearms in current service with real police officers, who often carry the weapons every day of their lives). Glocks have safeties that are internal to the weapon. The gun will not fire without the trigger being moved from a forward to rearward position. The lack of an external safety has no bearing on whether or not these firearms can be safely carried for duty/CCW use with a round in the chamber.
(BTW, I've carried a Glock for my entire career, and have owned three different Glocks. I've had my current Glock for about 5 years now, and have put around 10,000 rounds through it so far, and carried it every day in those five years).
Evela said:In a pants peeing situation, they might not even be able to find their holster, much less draw it, much less fumble around trying to find and activate, er deactivate the safety - sadly, a fine motor skill they're missing.
This is spoken like someone who has never actually seen armed combat firsthand. Believe me, I don't think you'll have any more luck with a slide-racking motion than someone who has trained with a 1911 would have with a safety sweep. I currently carry a Glock, as I mentioned previously, so I could almost guarantee that I'd forget to sweep a safety during a draw (unless I began training with that weapon system). However, sweeping a safety is still going to be a faster and more natural motion than bringing a second hand into the draw in an attempt to rack the slide on the weapon. This will be even more true if you are facing a charging opponent at the time of the draw, as your natural inclination will be to protect yourself with the free hand (which, ironically enough, may naturally come up to the area where your free hand will meet your other hand -- which contains a gun that is hopefully already chambered and ready for the fight).
You are not wrong in saying that the fear of a life-and-death encounter can cause people to lose control of their muscles/bladders/bowels, but I do believe that you are very wrong in assuming that adding a slide-racking motion to the draw will be a beneficial way to counter this problem!
Evela said:One study - with a decent shooter who was trying the Israeli draw for the first time, and with just a little practice - found it took him around 0.2 to 0.3 seconds more with about the same accuracy.
Yet, that is demonstrated in a controlled range environment, rather than a combat situation (where you may be off-balance, in a fight, or unable to utilize one of your hands, all while you feel your adrenaline run up to the redline)! You are advocating a dangerous technique that has been abandoned by every agency/organization that I'm personally aware of.
Evela said:It's one of the reasons he recommends the NY#1.
The NY trigger was developed to address problems in training, not problems with guns. Sadly, we now have the NY trigger here in our department, as the administration's answer to an officer who gave herself a 'racing stripe' when she holstered her loaded weapon (following a course of fire) and failed to remove her finger from the trigger guard. Her idiotic accident led to a political decision that impacted the rest of my department, when it really should have only resulted in nothing more than some serious remedial training for the involved officer. Such is the way things often work. Politics runs the show, and in the past has also created things such as the so-called "Israeli Draw".
Boba Fett said:Evela is most likely a Mall Ninja.
Evela is most likely too young to own a gun and spends his time in video games and watching movies.
Evela presents opinion as fact while contradicting himself endlessly.
Evela likes to cut up other people's quotes from various threads without even linking to those threads in a crazy attempt to prove his points.
^^ Something to think about!
I don't usually jump too quickly to calling someone a troll, but with a post count of only 5, and a very strongly worded opinion that goes against the grain of everything that is currently taught by the vast majority of the world, it kind of gets you wondering.
I wouldn't even waste my time replying to such comments, except that I'd hate to see some new shooter become convinced that they should never carry their weapon chambered, and then ultimately see that person get hurt as a result of that decision!
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