Doe with fawns: Shoot the doe or a fawn?

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Let's face it gents, you're not doing the fawn any favors by shooting the doe, and you're not doing the doe any favors by shooting the fawn. You're killing that animal for food. The only ethics about it are making a good shot. As long as they're getting eaten there ain't a thing wrong with it. Especially in an area with an over-population of deer. If they're aren't many deer then you may want to re-think your strategy. But passing up legal deer, fawns or does alike, and then eating beef and pork all year long is in no way more ethical than taking what nature has offered you. I guarantee you're not eating just bulls and boars. Call me crazy but I think the hunter who will only shoot the biggest buck in the woods is far more unethical than the hunter who hunts to put meat on the table. I get drawn for antlerless elk about every other year, where I legally take an antlerless elk. If I hold the only tag in the family I might hold out for a cow, but otherwise it's boils down to which one gives me the better shot. Yeah it's fun to get out but I'm there to get food. I guess I'm just not spoiled like you boys who have it good. I have to hunt my game, if I get too particular I go hungry...which I dislike. Guess I'm no better than a coyote eh?
 
Alabama hunting regulations are set by state wildlife biologist not hunters or voters and they don't take polls. Size and bag limits are set to benefit the wildlife not hunters or Disney characters. Information collected by field research and end of season hunter reports help them understand what the deer herd can bear. When THEY determine that our deer herd needs to be thinned and that the taking of does (of all ages)is the best way to do it,that settles any "ethics" question for me. If it ain't got a spot it goes in the pot. I'll hunt for antlers in January after the freezer is filled.
 
doe v fawn

our deer seasons the does are not in season until the young are fairly well on. Although we do shoot roe does from november on wards. at this time it is quite likely she will have kids with her. they will have been born in may or june time. So they are quite well grown. It is well accepted that orphanned kids in the first month of the doe season will not make it through the winter. We also look to control numbers through an effective doe cull. So the answer from the uk is shoot the doe first and then shoot the kids. They will often just stand when the female is shot or come back a couple of minutes later. Every effort must be made to cull them aswell.

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As Jimmy said, here in Alabama, our state biologists have set pretty liberal limits on the number of deer we can shoot. True, we do have the 3-buck limit, but we can shoot a doe a day from October 15th to January 31st. Overall, the buck to doe ratio in this state is heavily skewed towards does, and in many places, over-browsing is becoming a serious issue. Two perfect examples of that are Guntersville State Park and Oak Mountain State Park. Only in the past two years, when the deer at Oak Mountain were about to eat themselves out of a home (starvation), has hunting there been allowed.

As far as I know, Guntersville State Park is still posted as no hunting.
 
Right you are ojibweindian, Guntersville is still a no hunt area. I think I heard on the radio a few days ago that registration was underway for the Oak Mountain hunt. The first hunt there was a bust because everybody wanted one of those big bucks and bypassed the does. This year should be different.
 
If you felt you cold get a shot at all three I would say go for the doe. The fawns are old enough to survive by now. OTOH if you are actually going to take one of those three deer with a bow I would vote the first one to present a shot. You may not get a shot at mama again.
 
P.S. It's raining today or I'd be out there right now

I would also like to add I went out on Sunday the 4th in the rain probably same system. Saw alot of deer considering I had to walk out and find somebody with a tractor to pull my truck out of a ditch. I should have stayed home also my truck is still there. Dang gumbo mud can't even find anybody local with 4wd tractor so I am waiting for it to dry up and this guy that gave me a ride will pull me out with his tractor. Sorry to hijack rant over.
 
Does anyone know what age whitetail fawns are weaned? Because as I say, in October, these are 5-6 months old, in my understanding.

also my truck is still there.

Dang, 3pairs, that sucks. But I will say I've noticed that deer do walk around in the rain a fair amount. I've never gotten one in the rain, but I've been out there and seen it. They seem to enjoy the rain, which is a bit weird because they do NOT like to roam around in windy conditions when they cannot hear predators as easily. You'd think the same would apply to rain, and maybe it does to a certain extent, but maybe not as much as with wind (??).
 
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Shoot all three. Mamma doe first so the others stay near. I've learned to distiguish buttons from little does and try to avoid them.
 
For those that would like to go by research or experience, I might suggest a few books by Leonard Lee Rue: "The Deer Hunter's Encyclopedia", and "The Way of the Whitetail". Both are loaded with info from deer research and eyewitness observation, and together provide a great education on deer behavior, anatomy, breeding, physiology, etc. A few facts from the books that pertain to this discussion:

1. Doe fawns are fully weaned before their spots fade away, and are often bred successfully in their first fall season.
2. Does can breed for many years, and have been documented to breed into their mid-twenties (33 fawns total for that particular animal).
3. After two months or so, a fawn's survival rate is the same whether its mother is still around or not.
4. The amount and quality of available food determines the size of deer broods, and in years where the food is scarce, many does will be bred but not conceive as a result.


My two cents' worth: I would take as many as you like, in whatever order you like, but I agree that my personal preference is to make sure to leave button bucks alone, if possible, to better the buck-to-doe ratio. I have been faced with a doe and two fawns in bow range, and let's just say they all went to heaven in the same freezer. :D But I checked for nubs on the little ones' heads first.

I would also caution against falling for the "Animal Planet" version of hunting ethics. I know, the influence is insidious and more pervasive than ever, but like global warming, it's an unscientific, emotion-based phenomenon that is actually not only inaccurate, but harmful over the long term for the wildlife it supposedly protects. There is an ever-intensifying battle among so called "conservationists" -- hunters on one end, bunny- and tree-huggers on the other -- to characterize the Earth as either an ecosystem in which people are just another of the vast variety of animals, or as an outdoor playground for a unique, above-the-rest creature that is somehow better or more divinely entitled than every other living thing. I happen to be a fan of the former position, and I like to believe that most, if not all, hunters count themselves at least closer to that end of the spectrum. I really don't have much use for those who want to use the outdoors as their playground and picnic area even while knowing next to nothing factual about it.

There are many other books by deer researchers, hunters, photographers, and others who have advanced the body of knowledge about deer by hands-on observation and experience. Charles Alsheimer, Grant Wood, pick your favorite TV hunter (Greg Miller is probably my favorite), etc, all of which have written books on the subject that are gold mines of information. If I could get the Disney-saturated, bunny hugging populace to read just one of them, I'd feel like I'd made a difference. Unfortunately, the battle is more about emotion and having one's way over others than it is about advancing our knowledge. I'm going to do my thing and let them continue to hope that beef grows on trees. Personally, I don't think it's cow farts that are putting all that methane into the atmosphere. I'm pointing my finger at the eco-terrorist crowd... :D

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I was hiking up the canyon across the street from my house today with my 2 dogs where I usually do. deer rifle season opens this Saturday and I'll have the week off to kill a doe deer and a cow elk. Well, about half way up I see these 3 deer. I put my stalk on, as much as you can with 2 fast running dogs and 6+ inches on crispy crunchy snow. I get to just below them and see that they are 3 does. One of them was considerably bigger than the other 2 so I guess that they were her fawns and I thought of this thread. If this opportunity presents itself again, which I bet it will, I'll shoot the bigger doe for sure. I'm not one to pass up an opportunity to shoot my deer. I'm a meat hunter and proud of it.
 
Leonard Lee Rue III ,IIRC also authored the "Guide to North American Big Game Animals" (as well as a companion book "Big Game Fish"). Very informative reading. Sadly I gave away my copies of both books. I also recommend Erwin Bauer's "Deer in Their World" (1983 Times Mirror).
 
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"The only ethics about it are making a good shot."

Nope........Not really....Ethics as stated in my post would refer to knowlege
of the particular piece of land as it pertains to animals/habitat, and what needs to be harvested. This, and being willing to harvest animals accordingly...
I agree with you on the point that we shouldn't just shoot only the biggest buck
with the biggest rack...and yes...a good clean shot is necessary as part of an ethical hunt. Happy hunting:)
 
Put me down for neither. I shoot bucks & barren does.


..............and just how do you tell if the doe is barren? For a good portion of my life, I milked cows and altho I can spot a dry cow from a hundred yards, I have yet been able to tell if a cow was barren without puttin' her with a bull.....and I still can't tell a dry doe till I gut her out. Again, just cause you see a doe alone during hunting season, does not make her "dry" or "barren".......
 
I don't think the decision (in this case) has anything to do with ethics, or it should not. If it is legal then it is up to you. If you are breaking the law then there should be no question. Since you are not breaking the law and you are hunting for meat, then you should take the doe.

Fawns are not in need of their mothers at this time of the year so I see no issue. If there are too many deer around then the best thing to do from a management standpoint is to kill does.

Many people will not take does because they only hunt for trophies. Many trophy hunters are not meat hunters. To me that is not ethical.

For me it is freezer first wall second. I have the unique opportunity of killing a lot of deer so I can make the decision on a day by day basis, but I kill mostly does. Little deer die too, and they fill he freezer as well. When the grill gets fired up my guests are spoiled no matter what goes down in the forest.

Respecting the animal is about appreciating what the animal has given to you and your family. If you respect the animal nothing is wasted.
 
this is what my wildlife management teacher told me one day in class

he was working a deer check station and a big man cam in with a little fawn that weighed about 30lbs soaking wet. all the guys at the station laughed except my teacher (hes a short skinny guy and said he was afraid the guy would step on him) and the guy pulled him aside and said "hey little man, you know they think its funny how small my deer is, but tonight ill be cutting my dinner with a fork."

and heres what ive always been told "the youngins taste better"

id shoot the fawn

and are often bred successfully in their first fall season

very true most will be sexually mature by the time they are 1.5 years old and in a well balanced habitat with good food resource and minimal predators some will be sexually mature by 6-7 months
 
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"2. Does can breed for many years, and have been documented to breed into their mid-twenties (33 fawns total for that particular animal)."

Maybe in a pen. In the wild, the teeth are worn down by around eight to nine years. The final year, they're pretty well gaunted down.
 
Hey Doc nice to see that your shoulder is better. Good luck sir in all of your hunts. If it feels right at the time of truth it probably is take the shot.
 
..............and just how do you tell if the doe is barren? For a good portion of my life, I milked cows and altho I can spot a dry cow from a hundred yards, I have yet been able to tell if a cow was barren without puttin' her with a bull.....and I still can't tell a dry doe till I gut her out. Again, just cause you see a doe alone during hunting season, does not make her "dry" or "barren".......

Perhaps a better way for me to put it, would have been to say a doe without a fawn. In my area, a doe w/o fawns means either they didn't make it (either through predation, sickness, etc) or she is barren. Either way that puts her in my crosshairs.

I don't fault anyone else for doing anything, but I just personally wouldn't do it. Kinda like deer drives, it ain't my thing, but as long as it is legal I don't have an issue with it.
 
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