Doing your own "background" check on prospective buyers

[DeepSouth]

Before reading this thread I would have most likely given my permit/license info to a seller if asked. After this thread, you can MYOB or keep your gun, which sucks because I am normally excited about my new gun when buying. Some the things you "show your ID" people have said is way to far over the line, IMO.

I have never asked for anything other than cash and have never been asked for anything other than cash, I hope itstays that way.

 

[Highland Ranger]

This is a really depressing thread.

Akin to me needing to call a lawyer to understand the NJ one gun a month law when trying to legally purchase two pistols after waiting three months for the permit and now waiting one month and still counting for the State Police to do the NICS check.

You almost need to be an amateur lawyer these days to exercise your 2nd amendment rights.

But we'll all just keep telling ourselves we're still free . . . .

On topic - if someone looked me up to sell me a gun, I'd pass. And as I don't sell guns, I don't need to worry about it going the other way. But if I did, I'd follow the letter of the law. No more. No less.

 

[ngnrd]

... I KNOW for a fact that they were zoe pound gang tattoos! You wouldn't be the least bit apprehensive about selling a gun to that guy? ...

First: You may see gang members as unsavory folk (as most people do), but the last time I checked, being a member of a gang is not the same thing as being a felon.

Second: While I respect your morals, where you draw your line in the sands of morality has nothing to to with where the legal line is. It also has nothing to do with where others may draw their moral line.

Third: Nothing says you have an obligation to sell to anybody. If you don't want to sell your firearms to somebody because it doesn't feel right to you, don't. But you need to realize that has nothing to do with whether or not a potential buyer has a legal right to own that firearm.

And whether or not a particular seller would be apprehensive about selling to a particular person is irrelevant in regard to the legalities of making that sale. If you want to see a driver's license, voter registration card, concealed carry permit, family medical history, DNA sample, or monogrammed pope hat, that's your choice.

If you don't want to sell to someone with their ball cap on sideways, their pants hanging below their rear, and a lip ring, or just somebody that won't hand over a copy of their personal information to a complete stranger, that's your choice, too.

Just remember, these are your criteria. And they have nothing to do with the law.

 

[silicosys4]

What it amounts to, is the "show me your papers" people here have no real reason to ask to see papers other than "for their own safety/peace of mind"
and yet they see nothing unsafe about handing a stranger your private and personal identification.....?

Sounds like a great way for a guy with a stolen gun and fake ID to get close to msrp for his illicit firearm....Fake ID's aren't hard to get....if he's even worried you'll run the numbers.

There are a hundred different ways an unscrupulous person could cause grief or harm to a person who had just purchased a firearm, given the right information.

I would walk away from any private seller who required to see my concealed permit or my drivers license. I have both, legitimately, and their peace of mind as a seller does not trump the security of my personal information.

The only time my personal information has been compromised and used inappropriately (that I'm aware of) was by a seller on a gun auction site. I don't automatically assume because someone is selling a firearm that they are a good, ethical person, just as you don't assume that of the person buying it.

 

[silicosys4]

I didn't change my mind because he had bad fashion. I changed my mind because he had gang tattoo's on his face. AGAIN not ugly tattoo's, not any tattoo's but tattoo's that are DIRECTLY linked to a gang who is VERY well known in the state and near areas for being extremely violent AND involved in drugs.

So you used your personal judgement and made a character assumption. Fair enough. You just did what most everyone who sells guns privately does. Without papers.

Did you need to see his Drivers license? or lack of a concealed permit to do so?

What you are saying is that the one bad transaction you had you were able to cancel because of reasonable suspicion (iyo) of someone who would be unqualified to own/posess a firearm, based on your intuition.

No permit required
no DL # given.

Would you sell to someone who looked like a schoolteacher, no tattoos, but no concealed permit and wasn't comfortable giving you their DL#?

Sorry, I just don't think that it makes sense to me, it seems that you are arguing that your intuition is not precise enough to stop you from selling a firearm to the wrong person, hence the desire to see their papers, yet you go on to state that your intuition was enough to stop the sale from the person who you had assumed to be someone undesireable.

You are right, I sure wouldn't want any of your guns.

 

[Roadking Rider]

Really pretty cut and dry for me. If there not willing to go to the LGS and do the transfer then they do not get the gun. I don't need nor do I ever want to sell a pistol to a person who is not legally allowed to have a firearm in my state. Rule #1 for me when selling a gun to another person is Cover my own @$$. The best way to do that is with the proper paperwork filled out and transfer Ok'd by the state. There is know way I'm ever going to let it look like a straw purchase by not having the proper paper work.

 

[silicosys4]

His D/L picture was pre face tattoo's.

He was a hispanic male, short hair in his photo. Nothing out of the ordinary therefore no reason to assume any wrong doing.

Then he got very pushy and would cover up his middle name on the picture of the ID and his DOB or id # and I would ask him for it. He was very aggressive and made comment's like "what do you need to see my green card? Do you need to verify my birth?

His aggression and pushiness to make this transaction occur right away made me nervous but he did eventually give me his whole ID # and info.

ALL That plus gang tattoo's + how he didn't have all the money there but when I said never mind he came up with it (lying) + 3 other gang tattooed friends= red light for me. Something wasn't right.

Had I never asked for his ID or knew his name or info I would have also made the same decision based on the gang tattoo's.

It sounds like it was an uncomfortable transaction for you.
Lets look at it another way.
He's meeting a stranger who has a gun and knows he has XXX amount of money. Yea, I'd bring friends too.
This stranger wants to see multiple forms of ID and wants your friends who are their to help ensure your safety, to stand well clear of the transaction.

minus the facial tattoos, I can put myself in the other guy's shoes pretty easily..
I would have shown up with at least one or two other friends to conduct a cash transaction with a stranger who I KNOW has a firearm, and since I'm male and younger, they would be the same no doubt.
I would have been uncomfortable with your requests to see multiple forms of ID as well, as that is going above and beyond the requirements of the law, ID being one of the easier things to forge or obtain, and knowing that hardly any criminals obtain firearms in private face to face transactions with strangers...I'd wonder what your point was and what you were going to do with that info.

You did end up very quickly pinning the "gang" label on him after all. I wasn't there and I can't say what the local gang tattoo's look like, but I work in a Native American community and have seen many tattoo's that are "gang" looking but not "gang" related. perhaps your discomfort at his "gang" appearance led to his discomfort at being treated/questioned as a gang member....?
Hell, he probably was, and it was probably a good thing he didn't get the gun. My point being,

You have your own rules, fair enough. Just recognize that they are considered onerous and invasive by many legitimate people, and above and beyond what is required by law.

And in your case the one time you denied someone, it was based on the same intuition/judgement check as required by law that everyone else here is saying they are fine with that you are saying you are not.... (after he had passed your paperwork check, if I'm reading you right,) and NOT your insistence on ID and paperwork.

I guess in your mind we are all guilty until we prove we are as innocent as you know you are....unless we show you our very easily forged papers.

 

[oneounceload]

As paranoid as you seem to be dennis, perhaps you shouldn't be bothered selling guns to anyone - best leave it to the licensed professionals at your local gun store - that way you won't be burdened keeping all those records

 

[Arkansas Paul]

There is know way I'm ever going to let it look like a straw purchase by not having the proper paper work.

If you want your private transfers to go through an FFL and have a background check done, that is certainly your prerogative, but just so you know, there is no such thing as a straw purchase in a private transaction.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

Question for Roadking Rider.
Are you in favor of Universal Background checks?

 

[Arkansas Paul]

However, I am very sorry to tell you this but that makes me and you nazis by some perspectives. I'm filling up the garage with some Zyklon B gas if you are interested maybe we can do some "cleansing" later on.

Well, every time that's actually happened, it began with gun control.

 

[silicosys4]

BINGO! My one and only intention as well.

However, I am very sorry to tell you this but that makes me and you nazis by some perspectives. I'm filling up the garage with some Zyklon B gas if you are interested maybe we can do some "cleansing" later on.

Yup, No way in hell you'd get a look at any of my personal info. This last page of posts that you've made is very telling about the paranoia that is in your head.
first we have "meth heads buying your car, then crashing it into schoolbusses full of children",
Then you invoke Godwin's law out of the blue because people object to being asked highly personal information that is not needed to conduct the transaction,
Now if you don't collect papers "your buddy the police officer is going to get shot and killed".

I think you are working yourself up over there, over a scenario that statistically will happen sometime after you win the lottery.

This is the same cycle of assumptions, ignorance, paranoia, and projection of ones own fears, that is the hallmark of the anti as well. The truth is, statistically, criminals don't buy guns from private sellers. They get them from family members or steal them.

 

[stumpers]

dennisrl84: you have contributed nothing estimable to this conversation in more than 20 posts.

I asked a serious question of fellow gun buyers and sellers. My situation cost me a Ruger PC9 at a very good price because a guy had a personal problem with things that have no bearing on the legalities of buying firearms.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

So then by the same standard is the gun shop owner making you do the state and federal requirements to purchase through an FFL a nazi?

No, he is doing the minimum required by law.
Which is what I do when i sell a gun as well.
And I never called you, or anyone else a Nazi.

 

[stumpers]

The real question is if I told you in the ad I required it would you badger me with your opinion and a history lesson on gun control and nazi's or would you just move on and go about your business?

That's not the real question. The real question was in the OP. I haven't badgered anyone here no matter their view on the matter.

I know the guy in the OP was extreme, I was asking THR just how extreme or not...

 

[silicosys4]

so then anything above the BARE minimum and its paranoia or ridiculous? Because that is certainly what many are suggesting.

When doing more than the minimum of the law is also potentially enfringing upon someones rights, imo, yes. Its your right to conduct your sale as you choose, but you aren't going to make people here feel better about your methods of selling by being a broken record.

Its your way, but it is by no means the only or the right way, and many people here object it to be onerous, unecessary, and a breach of their privacy, and I'm sure many people here would not bother responding to your ad, as I have not bothered responding to many ads that state as yours does, that someone needs to see my paperwork before selling a gun to me, a requirement not listed by my state of residence.

Just like I wouldn't buy a car from someone who tells me I also have to take the stray cat that's made a home in the trunk.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

Paranoia or ridiculous? I don't know about that.
I do think the vast majority here are for the less restrictions the better, so we do the BARE minimum. Because we don't think there should be any at all. But we are law abiding, so we do what is required.

 

[silicosys4]

I googled myself the other day and found a picture of myself from about 5 years ago in military uniform I didn't know existed, my rental home, primary home, previous home, parents home, brother and sister in law's home, all the phone numbers associated to these places, my speeding tickets, the phone numbers and addresses to my parents and siblings home's, wife's immediate family member's names, city and state of residence, picture of my home, size, value and cost of my home, age for all people mentioned above, type and make of the car I own, date and place of my wedding (which was in another state) and NO KIDDING or EXAGGERATION - the name of my dog!!! The best part is I am in Human Resources, which means I occasionally fire people. FL allows me to not make my info public record from the state. SO all this information is available even with me having it "undisclosed by request"


You give Dr's offices, hospitals, banks your social and copies of your ID, waitresses your credit card, websites operated across the nation your credit card ans on and on and on...

Your info is ALREADY out there! If they wanted it they would have it.

I'm sure "they" do.
"you" however, do not, until I respond to your ad in wherever, meet you in whatever location, and show it to you.
"you" do not even know I exist until that moment.

I am safe from "you" right up to the moment that I give you the information you need to do whatever illicit things you might do.

I googled myself the other day, and just like I expected, almost nothing came up aside from some professional information that I can't avoid having out there. The amount of information you allow out for anyone and everyone to see is somewhat controllable if you have watched who you give it to. I'm not into social media. Again, you confuse your own situation and project it upon others.

I'm not saying that you are a bad person, but assuming that I'm totally vulnerable already so should not worry who I give my info to is simply poor judgement.

I'm not worried about "they" (big brother, govt, etc) having my info.
I'm worried about that guy who says they have a gun for sale, meets me in a parking lot, looks at my ID, says they don't trust me to sell me a gun, but are really phoning their buddy to get the van over to my house because I'm at _________ and I'm not home right now......

Again, why should you be 100% safe in this transaction, and I assume 100% of the risk, when statistically, your paranoia is completely unjustified?
In fact, I can practically hear the Anti's chuckling, thinking about the progress being made in promoting their agenda and fear, how you ignore the numbers in lieu of your feelings and "CYA" mentality as I read your posts.

Thats why I would never give you my info. That and your ultra-paranoid posts.

 

[AethelstanAegen]

When I sold two rifles to private buyers in FTF deals, I did require that we go through an FFL. I know it wasn't required by law but as a responsible gun owner, I wanted to be sure that the guns I sold would go to other responsible gun owners. To me the "sniff test" doesn't work. If buyers had a problem with that requirement, then they just bought from someone else. It worked out fine for me and the buyers (I obviously paid for the transfer since it was really for my own peace of mind).

I don't quite understand the seller in the OP's story. If they guy wanted a background check, why do a rather inept search himself and then refuse the sale based on information irrelevant to the subject? I can't blame someone for wanting to be sure the buyer is a legal gun owner but the home private eye search just seems like a terrible idea (it won't turn up anything useful and as in the OP's story, just ended the deal for no valid reason).

No background check is fool-proof of course, but I did feel better knowing that I sold my guns through an FFL transfer. I know others are comfortable without it, and that's fine too but as they were my first sales, I felt better having the check and the records. I think it's a personal choice matter but if someone wants the check done, they should just do the transfer through an FFL rather than thinking they're going to be Dick Tracy with some google-fu.

 

[willypete]

Dennis, what a lot of people are getting at, and what I don't think you understand, is that your opinions and viewpoints are relentlessly paranoid and you come across as untrustworthy.

Why do you come across as untrustworthy? Because you don't trust others and want access to their personal information and to perform background checks upon them for your own feelings of safety and security. Projection, in other words.

Also, you are imagining scenarios and accusing people of perpetrating them with little or no basis in fact. All you have demonstrated so far is an active imagination and an ability to project your fears on others.

I hope you read this objectively rather than with a sense of persecution and learn to relax in the future.

 

[Bruno2]

So then by the same standard is the gun shop owner making you do the state and federal requirements to purchase through an FFL a nazi?

Is he part of this "gun control"?

Yes, that's the "gun control" act of 1968 being enforced. The difference is that the FFL dealer is doing this by force of law. You are not. You are doing it voluntarily like the mall cop that wears tactical BDU's , but they are not really part of his uniform . Are you familiar with the Gecko45 series?

 

[silicosys4]

So the people who won't give up their information then DO trust others?

Yeah... NO I don't trust others with the potential to ruin or cause a royal A$$ pain to myself and my family....which could be easily avoidable with1 piece of paper.

I also lock my house when I am not home and my car when I am not in it. Call me untrusting of others!

I am all for people choosing not to give up or ask for that information. But the very reason they do not give it up to "protect" themselves is the very reason I do not sell without it...to protect myself.

I think this is a good time to remind you that you still have an unsold pistol sitting in your safe.

You did not sell WITH it.

And you admitted you don't have a problem not selling your guns when you put them up for sale.

Your advice about "what works for you" is not particularly very good advice to people who are motivated to actually sell their firearm.

 

[Bruno2]

Yes.

 

[Bruno2]

Never gave advise on how to sell a gun, I was giving my opinion on how to best avoid ass pains if god forbid anything ever goes sideways and that gun is involved and tied back to me.

I would suggest that you look into one of those liability insurance policies that people in CA and NY are being forced to buy to cover any malfeasance committed with their guns. I think this would give you the peace of mind you are looking for.

 

[silicosys4]

WHAT?????? I check reviews on cars before I buy them too. I also check reviews on the car dealer selling it to make sure he doesn't have a bad history of selling lemon's! Does that make me a mall cop wearing tactical BDU's?

AND I check the history of someone buying my gun to make sure they don't have a history of committing crimes which would not permit them to own a gun.

So in addition to looking at someones personal information, you now are admitting to typing it into a system of some sort to run background checks?

This just gets better.
Please, do continue to justify why your feelings and paranoia justify your breaching my privacy in ways that are not required by any law.

I do hope your mindset is not typical of those private citizens who need to "see my papers" to sell me a gun, but I'm afraid that it more than likely is.