Domestic abuse victim wants handgun BUT...

[FAS1]

To me, she hasn't taken her self defense seriously if she doesn't want to practice enough to use the gun effectively. I think a large frame revolver like a GP100 would be fairly easy for her to learn to shoot and the weight would absorb a lot of the recoil.

A handgun safe would be a good idea with the kids, but will she practice accessing it (especially in the dark)? If not, both are useless to her for self defense.



I would make sure she has an alarm, a dog, and maybe some wasp spray too

 

[jmorris]

Curious...how do you guys feel about FFL's selling guns to people who don't show proof of training?

No problem with that but that is not the topic.

 

[reddog81]

The fist question I'd be asking myself is - "Is it even legal for you to give her a handgun in the state where you live?"
The second question I'd ask myself is - "Does this person know how to handle a handgun?"
If the answer to either of those questions is no I would not hand over one of my guns.

Given the scenario described I'd be concerned even giving her a BB gun.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Post #43...

First:
Re; #43 it's not the job or responsibility of the gun shop staff or FFL holder to know what a customer's skill level(if any) is or why they want to purchase a firearm.
They want to sell products and make profits($$$). Unless they are mandated by the state or local government to have licenses or permits for guns, I wouldn't blame the shop owner or sales staff for what a gun owner does or does not do.
I'm 100% sure everyday in the USA, there are many gun shop clerks or FFL holders who get untrained or inexperienced customers who are either angry, scared or intimidated & think a new gun is the answer to their problems.
As noted, some domestic violence victims or stalker victims have used lethal force with guns because their attackers followed up on the threats.
I(if I worked in a shop or sporting goods store) would say; "get the proper training & here are some local support/victim advocate resources: ___".

I'd add that "Whatever" has not posted any new remarks here so this subject may be a closed issue to them.
I think some forum members get mad or irate, then post a new topic. Later they calm down or realize what they are asking or saying.

Rusty

 

[j1]

Poor situation. If she will not practice she should not get a gun.

 

[whatever]

I did post again saying that I will continue trying to convince her to at least go to the range and will ensure proper storage away from her kids.

An added wrinkle is that I am 500 miles away (although in the same state) so my interactions with her are brief and infrequent.

I am unconcerned with the legalities of giving her a gun...I am an attorney and have figured that end of things out.

My concern is the two little girls in the house and the nearly foot and a half height difference between ber and her soon-to-be ex and the 150 pounds he has on her. She hasnt decided that a gun is the right move yet and I am not pushing her one way or the other. But I want to give her the right tool if thats the decision she makes.

 

[BSA1]

She's her own worst enemy.

See, that's the sort of hyperbole that just makes this absurd. She might have an negligent discharge. Statistically speaking, that's VERY unlikely. (Lots of untrained people own guns and DON'T, generally, fire them inadvertently.) She doesn't want to go shoot the gun in practice. That doesn't mean she's necessarily going to act negligently with it, otherwise.

Some of you are very cold hearted for denying a women who is in fear of a partner that is threatening violence.

In the United States about 4,000 women die each year due to domestic violence. Of the total domestic violence homicides, about 75% of the victims were killed as they attempted to leave the relationship or after the relationship had ended.

First of all where are the legal cases in your state of a person getting sued for loaning a gun to a victim of domestic violence?

Second revolvers are a low skill handgun. Police and instructors teach unsighted shooting at close range. At 10 - 15' basic point and pull the trigger smoothly is going to be sufficient to hit the target.

Third learning how to shoot a revolver can be done with dry firing. True she won't hear the noise or learn about the recoil but there are excellent 38 Special ammunition such as Hornady Critical Defense Pink and non+p.

Fourth women react differently when their children are in danger. There is a good reason for saying "don't mess with mama bear." My unarmed wife successfully fought off a mugger because she was wondered about our daughter who was with her getting hurt.

Fifth security of the gun is easy. A locked box such as for important papers or a trigger lock will prevent unwanted accidents.

Sixth there is a group of people that pepper mace simply does not affect. Most of you have never been maced. I have been involved in fights on numerous occasions and most of the time I ended up getting more mace on me than the person we were fighting. In spite of getting a faceful of mace I was able to finish subduing and cuffing the offender. (In fact we ended up not using mace most of the time do to these reasons).

I could not look at myself in mirror if a woman I refused to loan a handgun too ended up dead. How anyone could go to the funeral of the dead woman (or dead woman and children) look her parents in the eye and say "I'm glad I didn't loan her a gun because I thought she would have a accident" is beyond me.

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

Yea, that oughta get him good and ticked off..

Have you *been* pepper sprayed with the "Good Stuff"?

Dude...this stuff can deter (has deterred) rampaging bears. I trained with cops and we got sprayed to see what good it does...I have a pain tolerance that is high enough I walked around on a ruptured appendix for over a month before the infection turned me shocky.

Pepper spray would stop me....you can't see and you can barely breath if sprayed with this stuff.

VooDoo

 

[Warp]

Pepper spray might work.

Or it might not.

Yes, getting hit in the face/eyes with the good stuff sucks, and sucks bad...but a lot of people can fight through it. Somebody in a murderous rage just might qualify as being able to fight through it on that alone. It would be better than nothing, and in the case of an ex husband breaking into he residence to commit violence I don't think that pissing him off is much of a concern...and it might give her/them the opportunity to flee...but that is a big might/maybe.

After giving it more thought and reading replies...I change my position to yes, I would loan her a firearm such as a double action revolver, live fire training or not.

There are just too many limitations to the taser and pepper spray, and too much at stake to risk what might be a wholly ineffective response. Many people with no training have and do possess firearms without incident and have and do use them defensively with success...and doing so at home/in a residence against a violent intruder is one of the more straightforward uses.

 

[alexander45]

The big question is really why won't she go to the range and put a box through it just so she knows how all the widgets work

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

Based on others arguments I'd like to change my mind and say I'd loan her my S&W M19 4"...I agree with the logic that says she should have a gun if it comes to that.

But the thought of how I'd live with myself (I know how I'd feel...) if one of her kids shot themselves or their brother/sister or whatever just gives me the Heebie Jeebies. Then again I am removed from this situation and cannot really relate. I cannot conceive of one member of my family not knowing how to safely handle a gun and I can't be convinced that a member of my extended family would not allow me to take them to the range and get them competent on my nickel.

This one is hard for me to rationalize. I just cannot see myself living in this reality and so can't really advise the OP competently I guess.

VooDoo

 

[BSA1]

VooDoo,

It is a come to Jesus moment when you spray 15% pepper spray in the face of a angry healthy adult male that weighs 225 pounds and is rock solid from pumping iron several hours each day and all he does is take a breath and says "Now I'm really pissed."

Peppermace is a non-lethal tool that works well in many situations but it would not be my choice when someone is intend on killing me.

 

[JERRY]

she wants a gun but wont practice with it? tell her that's like a drunk saying he wants to quit after passing the AA meeting place to get to the liquor store.

 

[JRH6856]

Just a note about loaning guns to people who might be under intense emotional stress. 33 years ago, a friend came to me and asked to borrow one of my guns. I knew he was adequatley knowledgeable and the reason he gave for needing the gun was plausible. His company was opening a new store in a somewhat dangerous part of town, and he would need to personally take the days receipts to the bank each night until a security service could take over that task. Two weeks later, he was dead. Unknown to me, he was sufferring severe depression and had become suicidal. Looking back, all the signs were there, but no one around him picked up on them.

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

VooDoo,

It is a come to Jesus moment when you spray 15% pepper spray in the face of a angry healthy adult male that weighs 225 pounds and is rock solid from pumping iron several hours each day and all he does is take a breath and says "Now I'm really pissed."

Agreed...but folks like that walk away from a pair of .38's to the chest just as often. There are no panaceas. People walk away from many things that would stop another in short order...

But I take your point. I have friends who have been shot and sprayed that would take another bullet (to a non lethal area) before being sprayed "full house" in the face again.

VooDoo

 

[RustyShackelford]

Domestic situation...

If the member has only limited contact or is unaware of the circumstances of the domestic situation that would make me even less inclined to suggest a loaded firearm without formal skill training or safety courses.

It's also not cold or mean spirited to expect a gun owner to be prudent or have basic skills.

Recently in my metro area, a female car jacking victim testified against her attacker. She stated in open court how the felon attacked her & disarmed her of a small handgun. The woman didn't remove the gun's safety & panicked during the assault.
He took pity on her ineptness & fear, not killing her on the spot.
The attacker was later convicted of multiple charges.

The information the member is posting sounds vague & lacks details. I'm not doubting the concern or need for proper security measures but we(the forum members) don't know both parties, the dynamics of the relationship, if this couple reconciled, etc. Couples and spouses often fight or have issues.
If this has really expanded to a extreme level, the female relative should get a restraining order, PFA, trespass notice, etc. That will help document any future actions/lethal force if needed.

 

[Warp]

Based on others arguments I'd like to change my mind and say I'd loan her my S&W M19 4"...I agree with the logic that says she should have a gun if it comes to that.

But the thought of how I'd live with myself (I know how I'd feel...) if one of her kids shot themselves or their brother/sister or whatever just gives me the Heebie Jeebies. Then again I am removed from this situation and cannot really relate. I cannot conceive of one member of my family not knowing how to safely handle a gun and I can't be convinced that a member of my extended family would not allow me to take them to the range and get them competent on my nickel.

This one is hard for me to rationalize. I just cannot see myself living in this reality and so can't really advise the OP competently I guess.

VooDoo

I'm confused why you are drawing a direct relationship between training/practicing in the use of the firearm and being responsible regarding safe storage.

If the member has only limited contact or is unaware of the circumstances of the domestic situation that would make me even less inclined to suggest a loaded firearm without formal skill training or safety courses.

It's also not cold or mean spirited to expect a gun owner to be prudent or have basic skills.

Recently in my metro area, a female car jacking victim testified against her attacker. She stated in open court how the felon attacked her & disarmed her of a small handgun. The woman didn't remove the gun's safety & panicked during the assault.
He took pity on her ineptness & fear, not killing her on the spot.
The attacker was later convicted of multiple charges.

The information the member is posting sounds vague & lacks details. I'm not doubting the concern or need for proper security measures but we(the forum members) don't know both parties, the dynamics of the relationship, if this couple reconciled, etc. Couples and spouses often fight or have issues.
If this has really expanded to a extreme level, the female relative should get a restraining order, PFA, trespass notice, etc. That will help document any future actions/lethal force if needed.

A good reason not to have a manual safety on a defensive firearm.

Lots of talk about a double action revolver...trying to fire with the safety engaged would not be a problem.

 

[wannabeagunsmith]

I guess I have changed my mind on this too. At least show her how to reload, fire with snap-caps. Then get her an inexpensive safe such as the one I got from walmart http://www.walmart.com/ip/SentrySafe-Compact-Safe-with-Combination-Lock/15571801
and then loan her a little .38 SPL with light recoil defense ammo.

 

[Telekinesis]

Some of you are very cold hearted for denying a women who is in fear of a partner that is threatening violence.

I don't think anyone is saying that she should not be allowed to have a gun, I think they're responding that in a similar situation they would not give her one of theirs. It's a subtle but important difference. A few months ago a close friend of mine was trying to break up with her abusive boyfriend and I was in a very similar place as the OP, so I'll share what I settled on as my course of action during that incident.

What I was looking for most was initiative on her part to effectively defend herself.

It is very easy to ask to borrow something (like a gun) but it takes at least a little effort to buy a gun or to learn how to use one. Now I certainly understand that not everyone is in a financial position to drop $500+ on a gun without notice (and in my friend's case she was 20 so she couldn't exactly go into a gun store and buy a pistol even if she did have the money), but if someone is not willing to go to an all expenses paid range trip or even take 15 minutes on their own couch to learn how the gun works, I seriously doubt their resolve.

If she had taken a concrete step towards defending herself, I would have been with her all the way, but I will not give a firearm to someone not even remotely interested in learning how to safely use it.



FYI I did help her with things like changing locks, getting an alarm system etc. just not firearms. She is still working through the emotional side of the event, but is doing great. Thankfully there is no longer an immediate physical threat to her.

 

[reddog81]

I posed the question regarding the legality of giving the person a gun because in many states you are required to have a permit/license to obtain a handgun. I imagine that applies to "loaner guns" also. In many states those requirements don't exists and it sounds like the OP has that figured out.
In this situation it sounds like pepper spray might be a good idea. It's cheaper, easier to carry, and not lethal in case of an accident. Yeah, pepper spray might not be 100% effective, but guess what neither are bullets.
I fully support being able to defend yourself to your best abilities, but a refusal to learn how to operate a deadly piece of machinery means you shouldn't be operating it.

 

[45_auto]

Have you *been* pepper sprayed with the "Good Stuff"?

Pepper spray would stop me....you can't see and you can barely breath if sprayed with this stuff.

I know a LOT of cops who have been pepper sprayed - hasn't stopped any of them. My experience with pepper spray is that it will only stop someone who isn't real serious about fighting.

Every police/sheriff unit around here requires every officer to be sprayed with the Level III (1.33% capsaicinoid) spray (the "good stuff") that they carry, then demonstrate that they are still effective.

Chart of pepper spray strengths at the bottom of this page:

http://www.sabrered.com/servlet/the-template/warning-sabrered/page

Your performance is videotaped. The rationalization we were given is that if you are ever forced to use higher levels of force against someone who doesn't stop after being pepper sprayed, you can justify your actions in court based on your personal experience with being OC'ed. The tape will be used as evidence on your behalf.

You're sprayed in the eyes, then have to complete 3 stations about 10 yards apart (laid out like a baseball diamond, about 10 yards apart) against training officers wearing pads. Similar to this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HFQKaz5XTc

First station we had to execute leg and knee strikes. Second station is hand and elbow strikes. Third station is baton strikes, and while you're doing the baton strikes another trainer comes up behind you and tries to take your firearm.

Out of the class of 18 I trained with, I was the most affected, but still easily completed the course. Had to wait over 2 hours before I could force my eyes open for more than a couple of seconds so I could drive home. One guy wasn't affected at all, might as well have been water thrown in his eyes. For everyone else it was extremely uncomfortable, but EVERYONE kept fighting.

Plenty of videos on Youtube of LEO/Military pepper spray training and it's affects on someone who doesn't want to quit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQqY-4MYwQc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrrV30gnt7g

 

[Warp]

I posed the question regarding the legality of giving the person a gun because in many states you are required to have a permit/license to

The vast majority of states do not require a license or permit to own or possess a firearm.

 

[JO JO]

have her take a safety course and buy her own gun any reason on why she
is unwilling to take a safety course ? In my opinion a gun is a great tool in
trained hands but could have bad results in the hands of someone with no
experience at all so much could go wrong. If things went bad could you be
held liable if you gave her your gun knowing this ? Perhaps an non-lethal
plan ?
Its a tough situation hope the best for your family

 

[stchman]

I have a member of my extended family who is going through some awful divorce/ domestic violence stuff that I won't get into. Suffice it to say she is doing everything she can to take care of the legal situation she is in.

That being said she wants a handgun for home defense for herself and two small kids....but she does not want to practice with it. I don't understand or agree with the mentality, but she deserves some level of protection.

I am willing to give her any of my handguns for her to use as longas necessary, but which would be best? My first thought was a revolver for its point-and-shoot simple operation. Do I go with the hammerless snubby for simplicity (although difficult to use effectively) or the full size revolver with exposed hammer for ease of use and reduced recoil? Regardless of what she ends up with I will show her the operation of the firearm, but she is adamant that she does not want to shoot it unless she is forced to.

In this (admittedly awful) situation, which handgun would you suggest?

If she does not want to practice at all with it, then HTH is she going to know how to use it if/when the time comes?

Owning a firearm is big responsibility. How is she going to store this handgun? How is she going to keep it out of reach of her children? Does she have a safe to store it in?

I assume this woman has a car, obviously she practiced with it.

I hate to say it, but if she's not willing to practice with it, secure it safely, know the safety responsibilities that come with it, it might be an accident waiting to happen.

I would not "lend" her one of your firearms.

 

[45_auto]

If she does not want to practice at all with it, then HTH is she going to know how to use it if/when the time comes?

Something like a revolver is really a pretty simple device to use. You just pull the little lever on the bottom and a piece of lead comes out the other end at a high velocity. Every new shooter I've taken out requires about 15 seconds of instruction to be capable of operating one. And most people, whether they like it or not, are smart enough to know when they REALLY need a gun.

Do you believe that those pages of stories of people defending themselves with a gun in The American Rifleman only come from highly trained operators?