Doubletap technique?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Zeede

Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2007
Messages
267
Location
Los Angeles, CA
I brought my Beretta U22 Neos to the range today to practice double taps, and firing one-handed, both with my strong hand and my weak hand. Let's just say, I hope I don't have to do too much shooting with just my left hand :)

After that, I rented a Glock G34, and it was nice and accurate with single shots. It was horrible when I tried doubletapping.

Is there some technique to doubletaps? I know of the rhythm technique where you fire a shot, resettle and fire again, in a rhythm, but I'm talking about the stuff I see in IDPA videos, two shots in extremely quick succession.

With my Beretta, being chambered in only .22 LR, I could get my double taps within 2-3" of each other consistently. It was terrible w/ the Glock, and so I thought I'd ask you guys what it is I'm not doing correctly?

Cameron
 
A lot of it is in the grip. Thumbs forward modern isosceles, lean into the shot. You can do it a couple different ways depending on distance to target and tightness of the shot. Generally is better to learn to see something, sights lift, return, sights lift. You can do this very quickly this is a controlled pair. Then there are hammers where it's one sight picture and you rip the trigger twice as quickly as you can. This is gennerally what we do on wide open and close targets.
 
Okay, then I guess my question is specifically regarding "hammers". I've seen them done in videos, and the shots were a heck of a lot closer than mine were tonight. The controlled pair I can already do.

Cameron
 
hammers are tougher for sure, but they are achieved like anything else in shooting you gota train on it, practice it and you will get better. the above poster gave great advise, thumbs foward and isocelies is a great way to start, and the technique that will yield you the best result. i normally do hammer out to 7yds and that is it. controlled pairs are out to about 15yds.
 
The thing you need to understand about doubletaps is it's not just hitting the trigger twice. The guys that place them close together are actually firing two controlled shots and seeing the sights on each one, just very quickly. I know that sounds impossible but they can do this. To learn more about this look at the Brian Enos website or better yet read his book.
 
The best way I know to actually learn how to do "hammers" for us mere mortals is with lots of ammo, time, patience, and good practice. What I did when I started shooting IDPA was to fire single shots with no attempt to manage recoil whatsoever, other than making sure the gun didn't come flying out of my hand. "Bang" let the pistol come up as far as it will; "Bang" again let the gun travel.

Before long you'll have a good handle on how far the gun will actually travel each time you press the trigger. Now you can start working on management of the recoil monster. (I would suggest you work from a freestyle two handed position first, then as your management skills improve, work on strong & weak hand techniques.)

Your ultimate goal is to be able to shoot, realign the sights/target shoot again, decreasing the elapsed time between shots (called splits).

For what it's worth, I have yet to reach the near super human status of guys like Brian Enos, Rob LEatham, etc. Out to 12 yards, I don't look at my sight on the second, third, etc. shots. I rely on muscle memory and peripheral vision.

Wheeler
 
I'll second Drail's comments. If you are using a "rhythm" method, you fire when it is time, rather than when the sights are on target. Two shots as quickly as you can get the sights on target will get you much better results.
 
This is gennerally what we do on wide open and close targets.
We? Certainly not me. I see a continous sight picture, lift and return, and my splits are pretty sporty.
 
I guess there are as many ways of doing things as there are people. For the close stuff I just sight picture 1, hard target focus. Don't really even see much of the sights. Mostly run the gun into the target, index, and rip two as fast as I can. If my grip is right my hits are there. Maybe it's a regional thing. I do shoot in So Cal which is super hoser land with places such as Norco.
 
I still think hammers have their use. You have to make your decision how much you "have" to see. I think a lot of it also deals with the fact that we shoot a lot of static targets that we pre-program their positiions. Easier to get two good sight pictures when you know where to look for it.

Before IPSC, Steel, 3 gun I did competitive paintball. I think their really is something to being able to index and point shoot fast hammers. That is if you had to shoot moving targets that shot back and actually see if other people were moving on you at the same time. Snap shots in the form of pop ups and lean outs are all index shots.
 
The best way to learn how to shoot multiple shots (whether 2 or 10) is to understand that each is a shot unto itself. Each should be treated the same. You should see the sight for every shot (with the amount of precision that the shot requires). There is no advantage to one sight picture for two shots. I see the sight for every shot and my splits are as good as anyone's (.11 - .13). If you don't see the sight, you can't be certain where your hits are. What you should strive for is to be able to call your shots even when you are shooting fast. You cannot do that if you don't see the sight.
The best way I can explain it is in the video I linked earlier. You should track the sight during recoil.
 
"Two fast shots, two good sight pictures.

Anything else is asking for misses."

Meh...

I agree 100% with the fact that you need to obtain a sight picture, however, I will argue what "good" means.:)

A wise man once broke down firing techniques to me that I found easy to understand, and provided me with a good base to go off of and practice.

1. A single well placed shot - Simply a single well placed shot followed by a second sight picture. Used when the utmost precision is needed.

2. A controlled pair - TWO single well placed shots fired in rhythm followed by a 3rd sight picture. Best compromise between speed and accuracy. One man's controlled pair is another man's double tap due to shooter ability and training.

3. A double tap - ONE single well placed shot followed by a SECOND shot fired in rhythm using a FLASH sight picture. Not as accurate as the controlled pair, but faster. Used at a closer range than a controlled pair. One man's double tap is another man's controlled pair based on shooter ability and training.


Now, with that in mind, there are shooters out there that use point shooting / instinctive shooting, and there are those of us that ALWAYS use some type of deliberate aiming technique that incorporates our sights in some way shape or form. I am of the latter and ALWAYS use my sights, be it solely the front sight post up close, or both front and rear sights when I need precision.

The biggest change, and the most challenging aspect of speed shooting, is learning what kind of sight picture YOU need to take up at a given range, for a given sized target.

When shooting at an 8 inch plate at 15m, I MUST take up a good sight picture centering the front sight post in the rear sight aperature in order to hit that booger. I'm not that good a shot, and will miss if I don't. However, I do NOT need to obtain the same precise sight alignment OR sight picture at 7 meters when aiming for the A zone of an IDPA / IPSC target. It is this ability to distinguish between sight pictures, and understanding what is acceptable, that allows me to increase the speed in which I engage the target. So in order to shoot faster, you must be able to recognize what is an acceptable sight picture for YOU, and once you see it, you can re-engage.

A technique to develop your ability to "see what you need to see" is simply to fire a shot string at your target, in rhythm. Say anywhere from 3 to 5 rounds. As you fire, you will identify deficiencies in your grip and stance, and you can correct them which allows you to manage recoil better. As your recoil management improves, it becomes easier to track your front sight post, which in turn makes it easier to see when it falls back into position in YOUR "flash sight picture" window that allows you to successfully hit your particular target area. By practicing at various ranges, you will ID not only what YOUR sight picture needs to look like, but how fast you can shoot, and how long it will take you to get that sight picture.

Practice is key.
 
what double tap is meant for is to spread the wound out. Your shot should intentionally land about 5 inches apart from each other. This is meant to cause the most damage possible
 
Sorry, what is a flash sight picture?

Flash Sight Picture means you see a quick snap-shot of the sights.


Exactly.

Terminology / verbage can often be confusing. Many different words are used to describe the same things.

Another term for "flash sight picture" is IMPERFECT sight picture. "Imperfect" refers not only to a standard sight picture with the front sight post centered in the rear sight aperture, but also to any "alternative" sighting technique that you are using, be it focusing solely on the front sight, to being somewhat off center of mass with a dot scope, or whatever.

When you are trying to make a compromise between speed and accuracy, as practical shooters and assaulters do, your aimpoint on the target becomes larger, as does your window of opportunity for landing a hit.

Take an IDPA target for example. The "sweet spot" on the target is a circle roughly 8" in diameter to be engaged from around 25m and closer. In the IDPA competition world, your goal is to maintain your rounds within that 8" circle, while firing as fast as you can.

Now lets look at say a slow aimed fire bullseye target. The sweet spot is approx 6" or so at 1oo meters, and your goal is to maintain your round within that smaller space at a greater distance. Sight alignment becomes very critical.

For the IDPA target, your sight alignment is NOT nearly as critical as is for the bull target. Fundamental errors that you may make are magnified with RANGE, hence, fundamental errors that result in a 3" POI change at 25 meters are compounded to a 12" POI change at 100 meters. You have MUCH more leeway up close, which is good for both the "game" and the real world.

Knowing this, a smart "practical" shooter should strive for identifying their OWN compromise between speed and accuracy, and once known, the shooter works on improving speed, while maintaining that "sweet spot" in accuracy.

Flash / imperfect sight pictures are part of that equation.

By identifying how "sloppy" you can be with the sights at a given range, you begin to identify how fast you can pull the trigger and still hit your intended area. I know that in order to hit that 8" circle that I DONT have to have perfect sight alignment up close, and I DON'T have to have a perfect center mass hold in the circle, I can be "close" and still achieve my goal. As soon as I see the sight return in the AREA I can break off another shot and be confident that I hit in the AREA that I want to hit. The speed in which the sight returns to that area after recoil is where the word "flash" comes into play. As that sight "flashes" back into the intended area, that "flashed" image should register in my brain and tell me that I can break off another shot.

This "flash" sight picture applies with all manner of sights in any type of quick aimed fire.

I read a term that sums it up pretty well on the Brian Enos forum. It goes "learn to see what you NEED to see...".

That's perfect. What that means is that the SHOOTER must learn what they NEED to see in order to achieve a hit on various sized targets at various ranges based on THEIR own ability. An excellent shooter who applies the fundamentals well, may obtain that hit without opting for a center of mass point of aim. Where as a "challenged" shooter such as myself, with sloppy fundamentals (trigger pull = ASS) may very well need to pick up a point of aim much closer to center of mass in order to make up for poor fundamentals. It all depends on the shooter.

Training is key. Natural ability helps, and so does good equipment.
 
"Flash" sight picture is a bad term IMO. It implies that you see the sight for a flash. You should see the sight the entire time (including during the recoil cycle). The bullet hits where the front sight is, so you should always be aware of the sight. This should not be confused with precision. Precision is knowing how perfect your sight picture needs to be for the given shot. A head shot at 10 yards requires more precision than an open full target. That means that you can be less precise, but you still need to see the sight. You also need to remove your conscious mind from the process. Trust what you see. If you take the time to consciously confirm or acknowledge sight picture, both speed and accuracy will suffer. Fast and slow should not be part of your shooting vocabulary, they are the result, not the process. Trying to be one or the other is counterproductive. Remember: speed = economy of motion
Break each process down into its components. Practice each component in the most efficient way. The result will be speed and accuracy. The minute you try to consciously determine the outcome, you will lose it.
 
I usually start an IDPA practice session with a .22; I have a Colt Ace for the 1911s and a Kadet conversion for the CZ. It lets me warm up the draw and target acquisition with little fuss and expense. I do NOT shoot double taps (hammers, controlled pairs, whatthehellever) with the .22. It will give funny ideas about recoil control.
 
how about no sight pictures?

When I was taught defensive shooting, we learned instinctive shooting with double taps.

At the beginning of the class, we learned to point shoot, and every shot was a double tap. We never looked at the sights, and just point shot from the hip, or holding the gun in front of you, but not looking down the sights.

Everybody, and I mean everybody had double taps no more than 3in groups. We had a 21 year old with his first gun (Kimber .45), and a woman in her mid 30's with her dad's old S&W model 60.

For me, it's not about getting a sight picture, but focusing on where you want your shot to go, and getting a second shot as soon as you feel that the gun has returned from recoiling.
 
"You also need to remove your conscious mind from the process. Trust what you see. If you take the time to consciously confirm or acknowledge sight picture, both speed and accuracy will suffer."

That's a money statement right there.



how about no sight pictures?

When I was taught defensive shooting, we learned instinctive shooting with...

I have "dabbled" in point / instinctive shooting and was actually quite surprised at how well I did, however, I found that at the same ranges I could use point shooting effectively, I could also use my front sight post just as fast, so I stick with quick aimed fire. NOW, should my trigger pull ever NOT suck (fat chance) I MAY be able to pull off point shooting more effectively lol!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top