Douglas County Schools buy AR-15's!

[Vern Humphrey]

Originally posted by Sam1911

I have to admit I don't see what's gained by painting an unwinnable situation. Officer stays and fights with handgun, maybe dies, maybe saves no-one. Maybe prevails. Officer runs to car to retrieve rifle. Maybe returns in time to save lives. Maybe doesn't. It isn't possible to define the outcomes of this hypothetical in any but pre-determined arbitrary ways.

Because it is THE situation Douglas County Schools are buying the AR-15s to confront, of course!!

Does anyone think they are buying them to knock off those pesky squirrels in the trees behind the school house, or to accessorize the cool cop uniforms?

No, they are buying them to deal with an Active Shooter situation.

Now let's review the bidding: my position is:

1. They aren't needed.

2. If they ARE needed, then they are needed INSIDE the building.

3. IF the situation the Douglas County Schools anticipate occurs, and the guns are OUTSIDE the building, they will be useless to the officers who are stationed there to protect the children.

 

[Sam1911]

Ok but, setting aside proposition number 1 which I rather agree with, I'd say two is likely to be the most optimal situation practical, but three is just too much conjecture, and subject to unforeseen circumstances.

 

[Warp]

Because it is THE situation Douglas County Schools are buying the AR-15s to confront, of course!!

Does anyone think they are buying them to knock off those pesky squirrels in the trees behind the school house, or to accessorize the cool cop uniforms?

No, they are buying them to deal with an Active Shooter situation.

Now let's review the bidding: my position is:

1. They aren't needed.

2. If they ARE needed, then they are needed INSIDE the building.

3. IF the situation the Douglas County Schools anticipate occurs, and the guns are OUTSIDE the building, they will be useless to the officers who are stationed there to protect the children.

1. Hopefully and probably they won't be. But if they are, they will be a big deal.

2. Outside the building might be closer than inside the building. There is nothing magical about being "INSIDE" the building on the other end of the building vs inside a car the same distance away (or closer).

3. You can proclaim that they will absolutely be useless no matter what if they are in a car but, well, that doesn't make it correct. It is very silly to make a blanket statement that a rifle in the car will be useless. You aren't serious, are you?

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Does the name Doctor Suzanna Gratia-Hupp ring a bell?

She was in Luby's cafeteria in Killeen Texas on October 16th, 1991 with her parents. A killer, by the name of George Hennard crashed a truck into the cafeteria and started killing people. Her father, in his 70s, tried to grapple with the shooter and was shot. Her mother cradled her dying husband in her lap and Hennard shot her through the head.

Dr. Gratia-Hupp had a gun, but under Texas law at that time, it had to be locked in her car. Hennard killed 23 people and wounded 27 more. And Dr. Gratia-Hupp could do nothing but watch helplessly.

IF you anticipate an active shooter situation, a gun that is locked in a car outside the building is useless. All the imaginative arguments in the world don't trump the cold reality of incidents like the Luby's Cafeteria shooting.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Originally posted by X-Rap

Vern, let's pretend the gun is I the safe in the office and the shooter is in the library at the other end of the building. Does the cop run 150 yds down hallways to retrieve his rifle then so he doesn't have to leave the building?

Suppose there's a fire, and the nearest fire point is 150 yards down the hallway?

Then the building should have multiple fire points, of course!

When you plan for emergencies, part of your planning is to make sure the equipment you need -- the fire point, the first aid kit, the defibillitaor and the rifle are placed where they are likely to be needed.

 

[X-Rap]

Holy smokes Vern, I'm sure these cops are armed and packing upwards to 45 rounds of ammo. So Dr. Hupp they are not.
Rather than stay in this odd little box you've built I think I'll just have to trust the judgement of the cops if the moment ever comes or perhaps the board of education authorizes the cops to carry their new guns at patrol ready 100% of the time.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[Warp]

Vern: Is your one and only solution to have the officers patrolling the school with the rifles physically on their person?

With all of the arguments you are making up against them ever possibly be useful from the car, that is the only thing that is left, since, well, this isn't a one room school house where a rifle "INSIDE" is going to be practically within arms reach no matter what.

I think all reasonable people realizing that having access to a rifle in close proximity, even if it's in a different room, a different wing, or outside the door at the front of the parking lot, just might be a very useful thing.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Since you have obviously never been in a shooting situation, never been wounded, I see how you place your imagination ahead of reality.

The reality is, shootings take place very fast. The gun you do not have is useless. If YOU think you will need an AR-15, you better have it ready to hand if the need arises.

 

[Warp]

Since you have obviously never been in a shooting situation, never been wounded, I see how you place your imagination ahead of reality.

The reality is, shootings take place very fast. The gun you do not have is useless. If YOU think you will need an AR-15, you better have it ready to hand if the need arises.

This is why it's pointless to dial 911 when a public/mass/active shooting starts, of course. And equally pointless to radio for the officer on the other side of the building. And forget about a SWAT callout.

Seriously, going off topic when presented with valid questions and randomly turning it into personal peeing contests doesn't solve anything or help your case.

 

[danez71]

Suppose there's a fire, and the nearest fire point is 150 yards down the hallway?

Then the building should have multiple fire points, of course!

When you plan for emergencies, part of your planning is to make sure the equipment you need -- the fire point, the first aid kit, the defibillitaor and the rifle are placed where they are likely to be needed.

Of course there SHOULD be more fire points/exits.

But that doesn't mean the one 150 yards down the hallway automatically becomes USELESS as you've been claiming.

Would/could it be inadequate, for sure.

But to say its usless just doesn't make any sense to say that.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

I think the elephant in the room that no one is directly addressing is that you either want the security with slung rifles or you want them stored. Either way I don't look down on anyones opinion.

Slung rifles, or at least one even if it be at a distance, makes more sense to me than storing them where they are out of reach. There's a reason why folks that want to carry usually have their pistol on their side and not in their car when they're out and about.

 

[RPRNY]

I think the elephant in the room that no one is directly addressing is that you either want the security with slung rifles or you want them stored. Either way I don't look down on anyones opinion.

Slung rifles, or at least one even if it be at a distance, makes more sense to me than storing them where they are out of reach. There's a reason why folks that want to carry usually have their pistol on their side and not in their car when they're out and about.

Well said.

I cannot understand the group hate on Vern here. He couldn't have been more clear or logical when he made three points above in "reviewing the bidding". One could disagree. That's just opinion, so the fallacy of it is unimportant, but the diatribes attacking his positions are absurd.

If rifles are needed to address school shooters, which he doubts, then the rifles need to be to hand. As GOB says above, there's no sense having a dog and barking; if someone has a carry permit, telling them they have to leave their firearm locked in their car is stupid. Douglas County saying "we need rifles to protect our kids but you have to lock them in the car" is stupid. If these are only to be issued to roving patrols, it's still stupid but somewhere more like telling your wife you 'slept at friend's' stupid. As opposed to giving them to school based guards and making them keep them locked in the car, which is "Honey, I need to tell you about me and your sister" stupid.

As to the chap running out to his car to get his rifle when the shooting starts, you must be joking. You have never been in the poo if you believe that. Aside from the speed of things, you can't possibly imagine that even the most uncaring idiot among these guards doesn't know that he would be tried and convicted in the court of public opinion if he ran out of the school, even to get his rifle, once the shooting started.

"Well, Mrs Smith, I sure am sorry about little Emily and the other ten kids in her kindergarten class, but you see, I had to run out to get my long gun.

No, my pistol isn't any good for shooting at people, that's why we got rifles

Well, I can't say that I know exactly why we weren't allowed to have them in the school, where the shooting actually took place..."

If they are needed, they need to be carried by the guards in school and Muffy and Biff need to get their little addled heads around it. If they need not be carried, they aren't needed. The logic is only difficult to grasp if your train of thought is influenced by the limp-wristed, hand-wringing, knickers-in-twist angst of suburban liberal ambiguity that obviously colored the County's decision to howl while holding Rex's muzzle shut.

 

[Sam1911]

Ok PRPNY, I don't think there's hate on Vern, I think there's just too much of viewing an issue through one set of assumptions and refusing to consider that those assumptions are not necessarily universally or even commonly accurate.

As far as officers patrolling the halls with slung rifles, that's just not goig to happen. It's pretty silly actually. As I posted before:

You were a company commander in an active war zone and I'd imagine you saw, heard, or knew of shots being fired at least every week if not every day. Can you perceive the difference between that situation and sending these school officers off on their rounds with a rifle at all times to counter a threat that appears (very generously estimated) once a decade SOMEWHERE in a whole state, and at any given school, statistically NEVER?

Most schools have never had a shooting, ever. Of the schools where shots have been fired, probably 1 in 1,000 involved any sort of "active shooter" situation like Columbine or Sandy Hook.

It would make as much sense to say why isn't the fire department required to bring their trucks to the school every morning and wait there? How many lives could be saved in a big blaze if we don't have to wait for the FD to get all the way across town? After all, fire's pretty dangerous, and WAAAY more common than mass shootings!

It is a wildly overblown reaction to a possible but very rare event. We make (more or less) logical assessments of the costs-vs-benefits off preparations for all kinds of risks in life and generally don't wildly overreach in our preparations to very rare disasters.

But when it comes to "active shooters" we tend to lose our collective minds a little. Couple that with all of our (here) natural love of guns and habitual desire to just have them around because we like 'em, and we end up with this rather fanciful image of security officers patrolling our school hallways with rifles at the ready.

 

[Sam1911]

(Oh, and this also gives is another grand opportunity to point and laugh at the "blissninies" and other liberal "sheeple" who will undoubtedly "wet their nappies" at the sight of the big scary guns we love. That's great because it gives us the chance to show each other how butch and virile we are by talking like that. If we didn't deride and mock parents who don't want their kids to go to school in an armed encampment people might think we are weak mamby-pamby sorts who can't talk the big tough manly talk.)

 

[danez71]

I'm not hate'n on Vern at all. I actually agree with him on most of what he's said.

It's this that dont agree with how it's said.

3. IF the situation the Douglas County Schools anticipate occurs, and the guns are OUTSIDE the building, they will be useless to the officers who are stationed there to protect the children.

"Will be useless" is a predetermined outcome that, unless Verns Magic 8 Ball is infallible, is quite speculative.

It very well could be true in the end.... or maybe not.

A rifle in a room across campus or a rifle in a car across campus.

I don't see how either one can be predetermined to be useful and the other be predetermined to be useless.

 

[RPRNY]

So, they aren't needed. If I were a Douglas County taxpayer, that would be enervating.

 

[Sam1911]

Exactly!

But as always we've got to "do something!"


Whatever happened to those Africanized honeybees anyway? Shame we quit worrying about them. I bought stock in a company that made kindergarten sized bee suits ... Still waiting to make my fortune on them.

 

[Warp]

They aren't needed?

I guess this is not one of those "it's not the odds, but the stakes" things.

Of course, a potentially more effective and less expensive option would be to simply legalize lawful concealed carry at school...

 

[X-Rap]

All of what Sam said and I'd add that 99.9% of the time these school cops will be dealing with fairly mundane duties in which a rifle will be a genuine hinderence. I'd also point out that a poster from Douglas County already stated that safes were considered but the cost was deemed prohibitive and it seemed like that was just one per building. I can see all kinds of accountability and custody issues if guns were stored in a building at a frequency of fire extinguishers or first aid kits.
The rifle is not the end all to the problem in those school patrol cars anymore than in a city, County or State car.
Personally I'll stand on my original assertion that arming and training willing staff is much more effective in the long run.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I think the elephant in the room that no one is directly addressing is that you either want the security with slung rifles or you want them stored. Either way I don't look down on anyones opinion.

Slung rifles, or at least one even if it be at a distance, makes more sense to me than storing them where they are out of reach. There's a reason why folks that want to carry usually have their pistol on their side and not in their car when they're out and about.

Which is the whole point. If you need a gun, you need it handy.

If it costs too much to have several safes, you can save even more money by not buying the AR-15 which will be useless.

If there is a security issue storing the AR-15s in the building, there is no less a security issue storing them in cars in the parking lot.

 

[Sam1911]

They aren't needed?

I guess this is not one of those "it's not the odds, but the stakes" things.

Everything is always BOTH the odds and the stakes, analyzed as logically and critically as possible and then juxtaposed against the actual effectiveness of any proposed solution, not in perfect theory but in real world application.

Answerng an exceedingly unlikely risk (active shooter at a specific location) with a blanket response (rifle on site somewhere) may be truly effective or may be really just more eyewash to appease parents that their kids are "safe".

Maybe average Joe and Jane 8th grader in CO are at a statistically measureable (and thus counter-able) risk from an active shooter and maybe they are not. Maybe having a rifle on site changes their actual calculable risk of being shot by an active shooter, and of dying (from that, at least) and maybe it does not.

Whether the rifle is in a car or a locker somewhere, or even slung on Officer Friendly's shoulder every day of every passing year, doesn't really seem like it would change any of those global stats enough to argue about.

Of course, a potentially more effective and less expensive option would be to simply legalize lawful concealed carry at school...

Which, even if some states do and even if some teachers do so, and even if those teachers that sometimes do, do so more often than they don't, still doesn't answer the rifle storage question. and if handguns carried will do the job, guess the rifles aren't such a big deal.

 

[danez71]

Which is the whole point. If you need a gun, you need it handy.

If it costs too much to have several safes, you can save even more money by not buying the AR-15 which will be useless.

If there is a security issue storing the AR-15s in the building, there is no less a security issue storing them in cars in the parking lot.

I'll pile on the last part.....

IMO, there is MORE of a security issue storing them in a car.

I wouldn't be surprised if the car was sought out for the prize of a free rifle inside.

 

[Whiskey11]

I guess I'll restate my training again just to remind people. When I was trained in active shooter response in the summer of 2014, the prevailing wisdom was that the vast majority of active shooters either took their own life or were killed by someone else with a gun. The studies shown to us indicated a strong trend towards the person committing suicide at the sight or perceived sight of a suitable, armed, response to their actions. IE: There were strong indications that the active shooter took their own life after seeing or perceiving a large police response to their actions.

With that in mind, the training said that the best course of action is to immediately stop the shooting with whatever resources you have. If you were a responding officer with a rifle or shotgun in your cruiser as you pull up, it was recommended to be the best course of action to grab said firearm. When the topic of SRO's and rifles in vehicles came up the overwhelming majority of trainers felt it best to engage the shooter as soon as possible with your handgun rather than retrieve the rifle. The reasoning in the first paragraph was given as to why. If nothing else you can delay the killing of more people.

I concur that a rifle in the opposite side of the building is as useless to me (if I'm in the building) as one in a cruiser outside. Unless there is ample time to retrieve one or the other (which there usually isn't), the best course of action is to engage as soon as possible to minimize casualties and eliminate the threat. A handgun is far from ideal, but it is better than having a significant portion of time where no response is there at all. Also, the schools in my jurisdiction lock the doors once school is in session. The only way for me to get into the school is by breaking a window or being buzzed in. I doubt highly that school staff is going to be manning the buzzer to let me into the building once I leave. This delays me further. If I was an SRO, and an active shooter was in my school and my patrol rifle was not within a moments reach, it's my HK45 and 31 rounds to delay or deal with the threat until other officers arrive.

 

[FAS1]

"One of my officers on patrol may be the first officer at the school. I want to make sure... if he is the first officer there, that he is prepared and has all the right tools he needs to keep everyone safe and secure," Payne stated.

Seems like they have well armed security on campuses with handguns that would probably be the first line of defense in a situation. Sounds like these Patrol Officers might be close by to assist in whatever the situation is. I think they are hoping they will be on site faster than a call to the police.


Here's the article that I think has a few more details.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/local-news/douglas-county-school-district-purchased-10-long-rifles-for-security-director-of-security-says

 

[FAS1]

They do have a great new training facility close by and my friend Veteran US Navy Seal Jimmy Graham is the director.

Active Shooter Response Training Center in Centennial CO.
http://asrtrainingcenter.com/


http://denver.cbslocal.com/2016/04/14/students-train-for-active-shooter-scenarios/