Draw or move first?

[Sam1911]

The whole point to what I've been writing is, (1) Whenever possible, to try to AVOID Tueller-style confrontations and distances;

Yes, actually the whole point is to avoid ANY violent encounters. We preach that situational awareness, avoidance, evasion, and social skills like de-escalation of confrontations are the far more important general skills to have than any shooting skill.

However, I'm having trouble understanding where you're going with this. You can't SHOOT someone to keep them from getting into your Tueller zone, so to speak. Most people you meet, good and bad, will be far inside of 7 yards if they're interacting with you in any way.

(2) in CQB pistol confrontations a shooter is going to have an advantage and improve his own chances of survival IF he's a little more accurate, and able to take his initial shots from farther away than typical Tueller-to-contact distances.

Again, I sort of follow you, I think, but "Tueller distance" starts at 21 feet. Most violent encounters begin far closer-in than that, and are over before anyone got out to distances where anything like traditional accuracy/marksmanship even comes into play. In other words, I have no idea how someone will "take his initial shots from farther away."

This seems to fit more into the scenario you mentioned with Officer Cirillo's work -- but again, that was ambushing, not defensive shooting. A planned, coordinated attack in which HE defined the shooting situation and took his first shots on his own terms, at the distance HE was comfortable with. That doesn't have much relevance to a defensive shooting situation where a citizen would generally have no lawful justification to even draw a gun, let alone shoot someone, until the "Tueller distance" threshold is considerably passed.

Frankly, though, if I were running a shooting school for the general public I might also seek to maximize school profits by running the kind of bassackwards shooting drills described in this thread.

Wait...what? Which ones? You've expressed general disagreement with a few things but haven't gotten very specific. What DO you teach? Can you explain some drills that you would consider relevant to street-survival defensive shooting?

Once you're past gun safety and basic marksmanship, what do you teach a student who comes to you for defensive shooting instruction?

I mean, let's face it: The general public can't shoot; and the school still has to turn a profit - Which is, in my opinion, where all of this Tueller-to-contact distance shooting nonsense comes from. (May I never be so desperate, or unlucky!)

This is frustrating! I think I almost understand your point, but then I just don't quite follow. What are you trying to say?

The general public's ability to shoot accurately isn't actually an answer to the problem of someone attacking you at inside of 7 yards -- because you can't just line up your shots and perforate anyone who looks at you funny if they try to come inside the "Tueller distance."

Now I can't imagine that's actually what you're promoting, but if not then I'm apparently not smart enough this morning o) to follow your point.

I'm out of this one, now. Everybody have a good day!

Well, heavens! Don't leave. I think the training community needs to feed and encourage and develop each other. I'd like to better understand what you're saying.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Frankly, though, if I were running a shooting school for the general public I might also seek to maximize school profits by running the kind of bassackwards shooting drills described in this thread. I mean, let's face it: The general public can't shoot; and the school still has to turn a profit - Which is, in my opinion, where all of this Tueller-to-contact distance shooting nonsense comes from. (May I never be so desperate, or unlucky!)

Since when is an armed citizen being forced to draw a gun and shoot someone NOT desperate, or unlucky?

The most telling thing to me in my first exposure to Southnarc several years ago was his statement, "Sometimes your awareness fails." Situational awareness IS NOT a perfectable human ability, just as with anything human. We aren't perfect at situational awareness or anything else - we CAN be taken unaware.

The only bassackwards attitude I see here, frankly, is the idea that there will always be room and time for an armed citizen to easily deploy a firearm if needed...

 

[9MMare]

Well, yeah, but how often will a defender find himself or herself in a position of defending at a longer distance against someone who is not attacking violently, and able to justify it?

To me, this is something I see "seemingly" unrecognized on gun forums.

So many are practicing their 'quick draw' and seem to think this is the 'make or break' move in an armed confrontation, and yet how often is that realistic?

A common scenario is being mugged/robbed at gunpoint and thinking they can successfully draw against a drawn gun (or divert...like with the old 'throw the wallet' trick) and draw.

^^^ Not smart, IMO and by many experts.

As Kleanbore asks, how often does a defender need to draw and fire when an attacker is outside of Tueller, or IMO 30 feet (self-defense distance that I practice)? What are these scenarios?

I have a couple, and that is what I focus my training on but they are also more applicable to women.

 

[Sam1911]

There's a whole lot right with your ideas there 9!

There are several basic common threat scenarios that are realistic to consider.

Some would allow for taking cover and drawing a bead on a threat. Perhaps a robbery of a store you're in. But that's a specialized case because you're not the actual target of the violence, and physical violence may not even happen -- and the best response from you would generally be to hold fire and let the situation de-escalate without bloodshed if at all possible.

At the other end of the spectrum is the close-range/contact distance assault. This (again pointing to Southnarc and his style of instruction) is not a "quick draw" response so much as a fight response that attempts to a) get you quickly away from the threat's muzzle, b) accessing your own weapon, c) protecting your own weapon from grabbing or deflection, and d) directing and using your own weapon as a fight-stopper. Explosiveness and speed are important, but not in an attempt to "outdraw" the attacker.

A type of threat at some middle range seems to be what many of us see in their mind's eye, though. Something where there is a threat who has drawn his weapon and is holding you at gunpoint at some distance of maybe 5-7 yards. I don't know that I see that sort of thing as a common real-world scenario, though it certainly is possible. "Quick-drawing" your way out of that one seems the least likely path to success. The idea that you can expect your better marksmanship to beat his already-leveled weapon probably isn't sound, no matter which of you is in his "personal combat comfort zone."

 

[JohnBiltz]

My biggest complaint is that there is this idea that I have a gun so I can not lose. There are times where you will lose and the best thing to do is acknowledge it.

 

[JohnBiltz]

The most telling thing to me in my first exposure to Southnarc several years ago was his statement, "Sometimes your awareness fails." Situational awareness IS NOT a perfectable human ability, just as with anything human. We aren't perfect at situational awareness or anything else - we CAN be taken unaware.

I tried to explain this once to someone. You go to Walmart at 2 AM. Your alert because you are in a parking lot at a bad hour. You go in the store get the supplies and again are alert going to the car. Then you start loading the bags in the car and you begin to pay more attention to the placement of the bags than the surroundings. You only have so much attention. You can only stretch it to cover so many tasks.

 

[Sam1911]

There are times where you will lose and the best thing to do is acknowledge it.

I think I understand your point, but a) who is espousing this view (here), and b) how does this help us prepare? If the best thing we can do is acknowledge that we may lose, what practical good is that?




...

I'll also say that I've met some trainers who will tell their students to get ready for the fact that they might -- probably WILL -- be wounded and/or shot during an attack, and to mentally ready themselves to live and fight through it until and unless the veil lowers and they no longer have a care for this world.

How does that juxtapose with your recommendation?

 

[Queen_of_Thunder]

Okay, okay... a statement like that isn't really all that helpful.
I think you should tell that to the guy in the wheelchair who is packing everyday and see if he agrees with you.

Even a person who has never fired a gun can move and shoot. Doesn't mean its a good idea or that they will hit what they are aiming at.

Help me here:
When people say you have to move and shoot, just how fast are they going? I am semi athletic (involved with running sports) and can cover a short sprint fairly quickly. However, at top moving speed, I would just be spraying rounds like they do in the movies (pretty much). That's not good.

But if i am to actually hit what I am aiming at, I will be moving much slower.

Also, at what speed is moving and shooting acceptable? Just how fast are we talking here?

I use a cane and a walker so what is the excuse of those who are healthy.

 

[Queen_of_Thunder]

No. Not "into". Past. Not a technique that is easy to explain without a visual, nor which has any applicability out beyond 2 yards or so.

.

How about this. Moving at right angles to your attacker while also moving forward. One thing people do not expect is for the perceived victim to turn the tables and attack.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Queen_of_Thunder: How about this. Moving at right angles to your attacker while also moving forward. One thing people do not expect is for the perceived victim to turn the tables and attack.

How might witnesses who had not been watching until after the altercation was under way interprets and describe what they saw?

 

[Collector0311]

I've got to say, it bothers me when people say things to the tune of, "think about what bystanders would think" or "you'll need a lawyer for each round you fire"
All you need to think about is getting out alive.
I'd rather need a lawyer than a casket.

That being said, wrapping yourself around any specific scenario is a misstep IMO. When you're put to the test, it will be a unique setting, time of day, weather, etc. So for me, the best thing I can do is mentally prepare for every conceivable event.
What I mean by that is, if you're sick, go shoot, if you're stressed, go shoot, if you're tired, sad, whatever, go shoot.
You won't always have a full nights sleep, good lighting, or good health. Force yourself to train outside of your comfort zone. Push yourself mentally and physically, because that's what your assailant will demand of you.
Best of luck with your training, be hard on yourself.

 

[Kleanbore]

I've got to say, it bothers me when people say things to the tune of, "think about what bystanders would think"

I will re-phrase it, then.

If you are involved in a use of force situation and intend to put forth a defense of justification, you will need to produce evidence of justification after the fact. You will not prevail unless the totality of the evidence indicates that

• You did not instigate the incident, or if you did, you had tried to withdraw before using force
• You made every effort to avoid the use of force and stop using force when possible
• You used only the amount of force that had been immediately necessary to defend yourself, or under some circumstances, n innocent third person, and no more, either in terms of magnitude or duration

A defender's having tried to "turn the tables and attack" could easily destroy his case.

Does that bother you?

 

[Queen_of_Thunder]

Defense Atty. So Ms QOT what happened on the night in question.

QOT: Well I was leaving a dinner meeting when two people came out from the shadows. Both were armed and demanded that I get into their van. Fearing for my life I immediately moved forward at a right angle to the gun hand of the one with the gun and engaged him with 2 rounds from my HK45 which ended that threat. I then engaged the other one with the knife who was quickly approaching me with 2 more rounds from my HK45. Seeing that the threat no longer existed from either attacker I then kicked their weapons away with my feet, called 911 and secured the scene then called you. Police and EMS arrived 10 minutes after I made the call. At that point I turned my firearm over to the police.

Defense Atty: So why did you move forward.

QOT: Well these two criminals saw me as prey and the easiest way to give me those few precious seconds I needed to ensure my safety was to move forward at a right angle to the gun hand of the attacker. This caught both of them by surprise. That surprise allowed me to draw and fire in self defense of my life. I simply had no choice in the matter. If I hadn't fired I'm 100 percent sure I would not be here today. My body would be probably be found up in some holler if my family was lucky but it probably would never be found.

Defense Atty: And your training.

Well there is the benefit of my Military training and then then there is my regular training.


Defense Atty. And that is?


QOT. I shoot competition pistol (USPSA), Rifle (military bolt action and rimfire) and shotgun (Trap and Skeet). This means matches every Saturday and Sunday and practice sessions every Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Friday. I shoot inside, outside and in all types of weather.

Defense Atty: thankyou Ms. QOT

 

[Hk Dan]

I've been trained to draw while I move. So I guess that eans move first. Surviving the encounter is your first goal, right? I'm presuing your not drawing on someone with no evidence of iscreant behavior, so he probably already has a weapon. Yes, in that case, DEFINATELY move first.

 

[Sam1911]

To that I'll add that your movement in the last moments before violence happens can help you in court. Meaning, the attacker's movement to contact as you're moving off his line of force is an articulable point in explaining your decision to use force. So you may be moving befor as well as while you're drawing and firing. A distinction in that situation would be artificial.

 

[Kleanbore]

^^^^

Yes. The key is to demonstrate your having done everything possible to avoid the use of deadly force.

 

[gym]

You have to take each situation as it unfolds. But trying to find cover while someone is firing at you will only get you killed. You do both at once.

 

[tomrkba]

Start moving and draw as soon as possible after starting to move.