Drawing on a knifewielder- Escalation?

Status
Not open for further replies.
N

NG VI

Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2007
Messages
4,883
Location
Maine
So I was talking to my girlfriend this weekend, and somehow the situation of someone assaulting me (or anyone else with a gun) with a knife, no particular situation, just any situation where a dude with a knife attacks someone who then draws and rightly fires on the individual.

She said that it would be illegal to draw or fire on the person since that would be "escalating the situation". as if deadly force is anything but deadly force. she was saying that if someone attacks you, in any way, you are only legally "allowed" to use the exact same type of force in defense. that blew my mind. I asked her, "if some junkie or meth head were to stick us up and I drew on him, you're saying that I would be imprisoned and eventually found guilty of some crime?"

She honestly believes that I would be in the wrong, and that it would be "escalation", regardless of what the situation was.

Her mother a couple nights ago said the exact same thing, that it would be escalating the situation and that you would only be allowed to use the exact same implements to defend yourself from imminent lethal force.

This is scary, because not only do I know they are both wrong, my girlfriend is a Criminal Justice major and her mom is a Paralegal assistant of some sort!

Somebody, LawDog, anybody, please ease my confused mind, I can't understand how they came to believe something so dumb! Please don't tell me they are correct! My head would explode!
 
Teuler Drill: an exercise wherein students find out the hard way that an attacker with a knife, starting 21 feet away, can KILL YOU before you can draw and shoot.

At arm's reach, someone with a knife can kill you before you realize what happened.
Playing fair doesn't mean squat if you're dead.

And way too many people don't know squat about what they're talking about.
 
she was saying that if someone attacks you, in any way, you are only legally "allowed" to use the exact same type of force in defense.
Click to expand...

That is generally true, but a knife attack is "deadly force" and you may respond with your own deadly force, hopefully that's a gun.

There is "force" then there is "deadly force".

You cannot respond to force with deadly force, in general.

Every state varies, IANAL and all that crap but she has the general idea right, you may only respond with "like" force.

She's just taking it to too much detail ie, a gun is "more" force than a knife and that's not correct.

In general, state exceptions notwithstanding:

Deadly force is a level of force which is inherently likely to cause death or great bodily injury. That includes all kinds of stuff easily, and some with some thought.
Guns, knives, bombs, etc are clearly whereas a 300 pound kickboxing champion beating on you might very well be also, but it's a more gray area.
 
Using a knife is deadly force, responding in kind will not escalate the situation.

Most LE Acadmies instruct if a suspect is within 21-25 feet, use deadly force (ie. shoot the suspect).
A suspect with a knife withing 21 feet can kill you before you are able to draw and shoot your sidearm.
The extra 2-4 feet past 21 feet was instructed so you don't get stabbed when you shoot the suspect.
 
A knife is deadly force. A gun is deadly force. It's not your fault that your deadly force is better than his deadly force.

In defense of CrimJus majors and paralegals, unless you're actually in the field of police work or criminal defense, or otherwise interested in self-defense, this is a fairly esoteric topic. Most people think that the proper response to knife-wielding attackers is an intermediate weapon or shooting the knife out of his hands, or somesuch silliness.

Mike
 
A person shall not use deadly physical force against another person unless they have probable cause to believe they must protect themselves or another person from imminent death or serious physical injury.
Click to expand...

You are correct in the use of deadly physical force. The key words in the quote are "probable cause to believe".
Find another girl friend. But before doing so, tell her to change her major at school. Obviously she's not learning anything.
Social work seems more suitable for her.
 
So, lets say someone decided to attack you with a board with a nail in it, by her logic you'd have to go run around and find another board with a nail in it to use to defend yourself?

Ask her if its alright to shoot someone who is trying to kill a baby with a knife, I have a feeling she might change her standards.
 
Whew. Then I was right when I tried to explain that deadly force is deadly force is deadly force to them. I think explaining disparity of force was a mistake though, I really don't think that little bit got through to them at all.

Standing Wolf- It's becoming a problem more and more frequently. it is also my first serious relationship, so I am milking it for experience to be better prepared next time.



Mgregg- yes, that's what she is trying to claim. It's beyond dumb.
 
Last edited:
Which creates a larger wound channel, a handgun bullet, or a knife?

Which causes quicker blood loss, a handgun bullet, or a knife?

I'm not so sure that the bullet wound is automatically superior to the knife wound.

The gun's superiority to the knife is principally in range, isn't it?

I'd ask if it's lawful to defend against his deadly force with my less deadly force.
 
Last edited:
No offense, but she sounds like the type of person that would suggest shooting the assailant in the kneecaps.

Make sure you locate and print what the books actually say on this for your state. The next step is to show it to her.
 
This is a grey area. Shooting someone for throwing beer in your face is escalation of force. Shooting someone with a knife may, or may not, be. Someone who knows how to throw a knife can hit most people from 10 feet before they can draw and fire. If they throw underhanded, you may not know you’re being attacked until it is too late.
 
I think you only have to be in reasonable fear for your life.

Gun Control means that a 115 lb. woman has the right to wrestle with a 210 lb. rapist. He could pick her up and throw her under a passing bus. Therefore, she could reasonably fear for her life if he continued a menacing approach with his bare hands.
 
Go to NRA's "Armed Citizen" article search. http://www.nraila.org/ArmedCitizen/ Then look up "knife" and how many knife-wielding assailants were shot with no legal repercussions. Show them to her. Then find a new girlfriend. Life is too short to spend it with someone who doesn't share the same core beliefs, or even the logic to attain to them.

-Sans Authoritas
 
Proportionality is not a test in self defense. Either you are in fear of death or grave bodily harm or you are not. If you are in such fear, you may use deadly force. Otherwise you may not.

5 hostile men armed with bananas or with nothing are still a deadly threat. One could be a deadly threat if he was large enough and you were small enough.
 
Years ago I was attacked by a knife-wielding thug in a mall parking lot at night with my wife and then small children behind me. Run that one past your girlfriend and her mother. What do you do? I backed up enough to keep him off me long enough to draw and fire twice at contact range. I still have scars on my off side, but I kept my thumb, my life and my family.

Exactly the same force? No way. Deadly force is deadly force. I don't plan on getting cut again. The Tueller drill is optimistic. If someone says he's going to cut me, I'll believe him and shoot him. If I see a knife in someone's hand and he's acting agressive, I'll shoot him. Not the knife, him.

At the time of the above attack, I was a combat arms instructor at Fort Knox, KY, in about the best physical condition of my life. Could I have gone toe-to-toe with the guy, mano a mano? Sure. Could I have died? Most likely. Could I have protected my family? Maybe. Maybe isn't good enough.

Macadore, a grown man in reasonable condition can cover 21 feet before you can draw and fire, keep the knife in his hands and filet you before you knew you were dead.

/rant

Sorry, but this is a "hot-button" issue with me. One of these days I might scan the police photos of my hand showing bones, or not.

ECS
 
So, lets say someone decided to attack you with a board with a nail in it, by her logic you'd have to go run around and find another board with a nail in it to use to defend yourself?
Click to expand...

So by girlfriend's logic, if a woman is about to be raped, she can only defend herself with a penis, correct??

Of course, it cannot be larger than the rapist's penis; that would be an unwarranted escalation of force... :D
 
Many times, knife wounds are far more serious than bullet wounds. The same goes for a blow to the head with bat or a rock. I guess that's why they call it LETHAL force.

I know a guy who was shot twice and stabbed once in Vietnam. He said he'd take the bullet any day of the week. I personally hope to avoid both, but knives are certainly very very lethal.
 
As everyone has said deadly force is deadly force and can be returned on the attacker. Now if you were in a shouting match with the guy and punched him, then he drew a knife and you shot him, you'd go to jail for escalating the situation. You have to be "innocent" to shoot and if you escalate the situation then you've given that up.
 
It's the multiple attacker question that I contemplate. Three guys hassling me and my wife while walking to our car at night type of thing. Three guys can be "deadly force" pretty easily. Wait for the attack and you're probably stuck with hand to hand, as it's to late to draw a knife or gun. Draw the knife or gun to get three guys to back off, is that escalating?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

R
  • Locked
If this video had ended in deadly force... would it be justified?
2
Replies
25
Views
1K
Art Eatman
A
F
  • Locked
Follow Thieves and Draw Weapon?
2
Replies
29
Views
1K
Kleanbore
K
C
  • Locked
Your own ccw = deadly threat = justified draw/shooting?
2
Replies
25
Views
3K
benEzra
benEzra
Tony_the_tiger
  • Locked
Traveling to GA: reciprocity
Replies
5
Views
404
Tony_the_tiger
Tony_the_tiger
P
  • Locked
Does the law see a knife as "lethal force?"
Replies
21
Views
2K
ctdonath
C
Back
Top