Drew down on a Stranger in My Back Yard

[torpid]

All debate about legalities aside, this thread seems to fall into 2 general approaches to the scenario.

Hey-he shouldn't be here!!!
Someone's in your backyard!? They are a threat. Have your gun ready to go. No time for phone calls- act NOW. Without him seeing you coming, go out and get them under your control, and find out what's going on- it's your property, and you're in the right. Better safe than sorry.

Hey, now what's he doing here!??
Someone's in your backyard!? Have your gun at the ready and observe him. Pick up the phone. Find out if he's a threat without compromising your safety. He may actually have a reason for being there. Better to end this without leaving the kitchen if at all possible, or him seeing your (ready) gun as you speak to him from the window of your locked house. Better safe than sorry.



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[Blue Jays]

Hi Torpid-

Keeping in mind that some posters appear to ENJOY the idea of the first scenario occuring.

~ Blue Jays ~

 

[torpid]

Keeping in mind that some posters appear to ENJOY the idea of the first scenario occurring.

All I can see is that some of us gun owners here would feel pretty embarrassed for venturing out of the house and holding what turned out to be the new pool cleaner at gunpoint before picking up the phone, while others here would feel just fine for rightfully defending their property against an unknown intruder, and teaching the fence-hopping trespasser a valuable lesson about the benefits of doorbell use.

(The key viewpoints of emphasis for the debate being italicized.)
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[TallPine]

This whole discussion demonstrates just how really dangerous pools are

 

[Blue Jays]

Hi All-

Some of my motives for not rushing outside waving a gun are also selfish in nature. I simply don't want the hassle of someone else calling the police to report "a person holding a manual laborer at gunpoint" and then having a bunch of cruisers screeching into my driveway. Talk about something to get the neighborhood tongues-a-waggin' with rumors!

Heck, it's MUCH easier to watch the "intruder" for a minute to see what he is doing. If I don't particularly like what I see, the police can be summoned via 9-1-1 and then I can open my window and talk to the guy and ask a few questions...with my SIG SAUER positioned just out of eyesight.

Life is so much more pleasant when one takes active steps to reduce unhealthy stress.

~ Blue Jays ~

 

[NineseveN]

Life is so much more pleasant when one takes active steps to reduce unhealthy stress.

~ Blue Jays ~

 

[Herself]

I didn't say you had to be a cop. But I think CAPTAIN MIKE had backup available, they are called his local police.

Oh, you lose! Police are under no obligation to respond to calls for aid from citizens. That's a matter of well-established law. On the other hand, they're kind of big on responding to calls for help from fellow officers -- and this is understandable. They have got to be able to rely on one another.

Even if he didn't have a portable radio on his belt, I bet there was a phone in his house, perhaps even a portable one or a cell he could have carried with him.

I'm not arguing the man could not have done better; I'm pointing out he could have done a great deal worse and that you've no call second-guessing him.
It's a fine opportunity to ask yourself, "What would I do in this situation?" But the fact is that you weren't.

And anyone who can't tell a dangerous move from a nervous twitch probably shouldn't be pointing guns at anyone anyway. It doesn't take years of experience to learn that.

Not being a mind-reading Brazilian jujitsu ninja and instead having plenty of reasons to discount the goodwill of strange men, should I ever end up holding some poor, unfortunate chap at gunpoint, he's going to get yelled at for any moves he makes.

I am the local police here and I said in my first post in this thread that I would be prepared to draw my weapon when making contact. But the first thing I said wouldn't have been "Put your nose in the dirt, scumbag!" like you hear on TV, it would have been, "Hey man, what are you doing back here?" What happened next would have been totally dependent on what the trespasser said or did.

And there is nothing wrong with that.
On the other hand, for all we know, Capt. Mike is 83 years old and a bit slow and frail. Or asthmatic, recovering from major surgery, 4.5" in cowboy boots or a pseudonym for an 85-lb ex-model.... We don't know.

Well the jury isn't in yet on if CAPTAIN MIKE won or not. In most jurisdictions an injured party has two years in which to file a civil claim. CAPTAIN MIKE and the pool man may both have gotten out physically unscathed, but we don't know yet if there will be a civil action and exactly what the limits of his liability are on his homeowners insurance.
You're right, we're not in a perfect world and the pool man could have a claim.

Every action we take carries a price. I have not read Capt. Mike whining about the possible bill; we may assume he understood it when he acted.

I'm held to a very high standard every day. A lot higher standard then most armed citizens are because of what I do for a living. So I'm not really too worried.

It wasn't intended as a threat, merely a reminder that it is often easier to judge others more harshly than we judge ourselves. As an LEO, you're a bit better off, liability-wise, than Mike; and while you are indeed held to a higher standard, that is due to you presumed higher degree of training and your status as an agent of a government body.

I've skipped most of the discussion of trespass. While it is not a felony in and of itself, it could easily be indicative of malign intent. Or be interpreted so by a concerned home owner.

What is less iminent about having a gun held on you? I don't know what the trigger is on CAPTAIN MIKE's pistol but a mere 3-12 pound of pressure and you'r just as dead as if Holt put his hoe into your skull.

...Pointing a gun at someone and getting them to lie still while you sort the sitaution out is quite different to chasing them with a hoe with evident intent to do great bodily harm.
The only way out of the hoe-chasing with intent is to run faster than the man with the implement, or take a dangerous beating. The best way out of being held at gunpoint by a man whose yard you have trespassed onto is to be still and explain yourself. I don't think Mike was any too eager to drop the hammer -- unlike the man waving the hoe!

Was the situation handled in the best possible way? Probably not. Would you or I have done differently? Probably.
Yelling out a window would likely have been a better first-contact method -- assuming one can yell loudly enough. Not everyone can.

Again, second-guessing this situation is futile. Calling down mondo bad karma on Capt. Mike is futile. Describing how you might handle such a situation is useful information.

--Herself

 

[Phyphor]

Oooooo! Sassenach!

Hah! Nope. While the patrilineal might be Scots (plus this, that and the other), his Mom was mostly Cherokee. Most persons not of such descent, after a fine just-like-grandma-made meal of the sort I learned to cook at home, say they would have preferred haggis! (It's actually quite Southern, I'm lucky to live not too far North of U. S. 40, the Mason-Dixon line of the midwest).
Besides, serving haggis requires a piper; that's a bagpipe player. They're officially classified as "weapons of war," (the pipes, that is, not the player,, though, y'know, most I have met could qualify...) and thus it would scare the weak-livered. Mustn't do that.

Hey! That's what Capt. Mike should have done! To heck with a .45 -- he should'a drawn and played the pipes! It's the perfect solution! Hey, Pool Guy: the jig is up! Or on. Whatever.

--H

<begin slight non-sequitor / threadjack>

You know, I've always thought politicians would be the most hellacious bagpipe players...they just got so much wind for that sort of thing.

 

[Phyphor]

Hi Torpid-

Keeping in mind that some posters appear to ENJOY the idea of the first scenario occuring.

~ Blue Jays ~

And that is, of course, just what Jeff was getting at in his earlier editorial. That sort of thing is what will hang us gun owners, if it ain't nipped....

 

[ID_shooting]

Guess for me it all boils down to defensive vs. offensive use of a gun. IMO, this was offensive.

We all have a right to self defense, we do not have a right to preemptively strike at your opponent in the off chance he may do you harm.

As much we like to think we are the “good guys” Mike simply wasn’t one that day. Being gun owners and carriers of weapons, we should take extra steps to ensure that exhaust all our tools before falling back on the last one.

IMO, he let his testosterone and his personal feelings get in the way of his good judgment. Something atone to “*** if this MF doing in my GD backyard! I'll take care of this SOB!” Then he storms out the door to accost this “threat.”

Oh, BTW, Herself, if he didn’t want this situation “armchair quarter backed” or his actions second guessed, he wouldn’t have posted it on a gun-related Web site with over 24,000 opinionated members.

 

[Trip20]

Oh, you lose! Police are under no obligation to respond to calls for aid from citizens. That's a matter of well-established law.

That is very well true, and this point works OK in those "why CCW?" debates.

But it's only a red-herring in a debate such as this. They may not be legally bound to come to your aid, but do yourself a favor and go talk to a few police officers. Ask them if they would come to your aid. I bet they all answer yes. I also bet they would be breaking the speed limit on the way.

I know I know... where everyone lives, the cops take 1 hour to show up even to a bank robbery in progress. But lets get real.

 

[Blue Jays]

Hi All-

Trip20, excellent post with regard to police response time.

The threadbare excuse of officers "not showing up" has gotten old around here. I live in a semi-rural area and the police are plenty quick about getting to where they're needed. I once saw a drunk driver crash into my neighbor's fence and then drive away...ripping off his bumper cover in the process. I called from the cellular on my hip and heard the approaching sirens within sixty seconds...

ID_shooting, we're in 100% agreement about the whole defensive vs. offensive nature of this engagement. Captain Mike apparently wasn't feeling too threatened if he was willing to run outside and get down to business. I swear it's people like that who are the worst thing ever to happen to our ongoing RKBA efforts.

~ Blue Jays ~

 

[pax]

Was Cap'n Mike, sitting in his home, in immediate and otherwise unavoidable fear of death or grave bodily harm from the guy in his backyard? Did the intruder in the back yard present Ability, Opportunity, and Jeopardy?

Ability: the intruder was visibly unarmed. No significant disparity of force existed between intruder and homeowner. Ability was not present.

Opportunity: When the intruder was spotted, there was a locked door between the homeowner and the intruder. Opportunity was not present. When the homeowner opened the door and stepped out, he gave Opportunity to the intruder; or would have, if Ability had been present.

Jeopardy (intent): Was the intruder acting in such a manner that a reasonable and prudent person would believe he intended to cause death or grave bodily harm to the innocent? The intruder did trespass across a locked gate, which has caused at least half the responders in this thread to say that his actions showed that he intended or could have intended to cause some sort of harm. Yet even among the folks who've pointed out that his actions were criminal, not one has argued that his mere presence in the back yard showed that he intended to commit murder. Would a reasonable and prudent person, knowing what the homeowner knew at the time, believe that the person in his back yard intended to commit murder? Probably not.

My conclusion? Ability was never present. Opportunity was not present until the homeowner gave it. And although the intruder's actions might have indicated some form of criminal intent, his actions did not indicate murderous criminal intent, so Jeopardy was not present. Therefore, Cap'n Mike did the wrong thing.

pax

 

[zealot]

Luckily it wasn't my house. I don't know how the heck he could have avoided all the Punji pits back there.

LOL, joking naturally!

 

[AStone]

I've said it before,
I'll say it again:

Pax for Pres, 20__.

 

[cookekdjr]

The locked gate bothers me. The intruder had to manipulate a locked gate to access the back yard.
Where I'm from, few things get across "keep out" as much as a locked entry.
Of course, the Kimber gets the point across better than the lock.
-David

 

[Biker]

The locked gate bothers me. The intruder had to manipulate a locked gate to access the back yard.
Where I'm from, few things get across "keep out" as much as a locked entry.
Of course, the Kimber gets the point across better than the lock.
-David

M'kay, I wouldn't much care for someone jumping my fence either, but how do we go from seeing a guy in your backyard, broad daylight, apparantly unarmed, likely looking at your pool, to deciding that Charlie Manson is doing a recon for the rest of the crew and it's time to unleash the 'Dog of War' and cry havoc?
The Capt. went from point 'a' to point 'd' in a heartbeat and the residual ripple-effect could affect the rest of us in any number of ways.
The fact that nobody got dead is purely a matter of luck.
Don't know how else to explain it.
Biker

 

[cookekdjr]

Biker, you are correct that Captain Mike over-reacted...but not by much.
Generally speaking, anybody who breaks into your backyard is up to no good. When Captain Mike went into his backyard, he was more likely to encounter an attempted burglar than anyone else.
If it had been me, I'm guessing I would have done this:
1. Have the Mrs. call 911 while she takes the kids to a safe place;
2. Walked outside with a gun behind my leg and said "may I help you?"

But here's the problem:
Most times that's a burglar. And most times when you do that he will flee. And then come back again later and steal from you then.
In this situation, Mike was more likely to have the guy run away, and maybe come back later and commit more crimes, than he was to encounter the pool guy. He just got lucky.
BTW, the guy was a trespasser.
I guess at first blush it seems like Mike was going the way of the mall ninja...until you start to think the thing through.
This is really a tuff situation to analyze.
-David

 

[Biker]

Biker, you are correct that Captain Mike over-reacted...but not by much.
Generally speaking, anybody who breaks into your backyard is up to no good. When Captain Mike went into his backyard, he was more likely to encounter an attempted burglar than anyone else.
If it had been me, I'm guessing I would have done this:
1. Have the Mrs. call 911 while she takes the kids to a safe place;
2. Walked outside with a gun behind my leg and said "may I help you?"

But here's the problem:
Most times that's a burglar. And most times when you do that he will flee. And then come back again later and steal from you then.
In this situation, Mike was more likely to have the guy run away, and maybe come back later and commit more crimes, than he was to encounter the pool guy. He just got lucky.
BTW, the guy was a trespasser.
I guess at first blush it seems like Mike was going the way of the mall ninja...until you start to think the thing through.
This is really a tuff situation to analyze.
-David

Sorry Friend. Let's come to a place of definitions. "Breaking into your backyard" is overdramatic and doesn't really represent this situation. Let's be honest. Most times you find a guy in your backyard he's a burglar? I'd like some stats on that. And yeah, he's a tresspasser and none of us care for that kind of thing, but you're assuming a lot.
Yup, Captain Mike was lucky, but for different reasons than the ones you enumerate.
This one is extremely easy to analyze, especially if a guy isn't looking to play Billy Badass.
Biker

 

[irx]

All I can see is that some of us gun owners here would feel pretty embarrassed for venturing out of the house and holding what turned out to be the new pool cleaner at gunpoint before picking up the phone, while others here would feel just fine for rightfully defending their property against an unknown intruder, and teaching the fence-hopping trespasser a valuable lesson about the benefits of doorbell use.

(The key viewpoints of emphasis for the debate being italicized.)
.

You forgot about those who would be severely inconvenienced (AKA shot dead) because they weren't smart enough to look for the so-called 'pool guy's backup waiting in the bushes.

This is supposed to be about tactics. Not looking for more than one perp is awfully poor tactics.

 

[slopemeno]

(SIGH) I told myself I wouldnt post in this thread but here goes...
He knew the pool was serviced on a regular basis right? He called and said "Hi, I'd like someone to come out and clean my pool weekly" But locked the gate? How is the service guy supposed to get back there? When I rented a place (I was for all intents and puposes a Cabana Boy at one time) on an estate, the pool guys parked under my window, did their thing, and left in about a half hour. The first time I saw their truck I though, "Hmm, nets and hose in blue nylon bags, couple of buckets, probably the poolguy, unless hes a very chlorine conscious burglar"

And regarding response times, I've called the cops a few times, and the last time I did they actually never got to my place, but caught the fleeing prowler on his way out of the area. It was almost an anticlimax. I was giving his cars description to the dispatcher and she stopped me with "Nevermind, they just pulled him over.

Theres being prepared, and theres over-reacting. Grab the phone, keep an eye on him, observe and decide.

 

[CAPTAIN MIKE]

Had a Nice Chat with the Pool Service Owner

Post Script: The pool service owner & I had a nice chat. I explained that in light of the gangs, crime problems and home invasion in the area, that I was genuinely afraid for my family's safety. I told him I regretted the incident and that I was trying to act defensively not aggressively. He apologized also to us. He said that he could easily understand. From now on, his guys will clearly identify themselves with a bright polo shirt having the name of the pool company on both sides of the shirt. He also said they will wear ID tags, have pool equipment visible and will ring the customer's doorbell after calling ahead so the homeowner knows in advance someone is coming by. We shook hands and that was that.

On our part we're switching from modem dial-up to wireless internet access so that our home telephone still can used in an emergency, even while my daughter is on the internet. And we're also going to a home alarm system that provides quicker access to police & fire.

I must respectfully disagree with those who were so quick to judge. I was afraid for my family, period. I regret the incident and I regret even more sharing it what I assumed were THR 'friends' who would be more understanding. Having experienced some mean-spirited flaming, I see now how people who weren't there can instantly jump to conclusions without due consideration to what it must actually have felt like to perceive you're family is mere seconds away from danger. Don't look for trouble, but don't be a sheep who can't take action if danger seems close. Keep your family safe, no matter what some armchair quarterback might say. You are responsible for your family. Good luck to everyone. This is my final post.