Drew down on a Stranger in My Back Yard

[AStone]

Excellent thread with excellent arguments.

You folks make me proud to be a part of this community.

I'll stand on the side of the room that says Cap'n Mike's reaction was a bit extreme.

Lessons learned. Thanks.

Nem

 

[280PLUS]

Ad as a side note, spare me the bad neighborhood spiel.

One, just one, little story from "the old neighborhood". Two guys go up to the local 7-11 at about 3 am armed with a shotgun to rob the place. The clerk, a former Marine, was known for not taking any crap. They shot and killed him. The theory was he said or did something that caused them to do this. The police tracked these two guys down and in the process found the murder weapon. It was stashed in the basement of the house DIRECTLY ACROSS THE STREET from mine. There are plenty of bad neighborhoods around, yours wasn't the only one.

I can think of a variety of reasons why he might have felt it was okay for him to gain entry into the yard without confirmation from the home owner.

And I, as an experienced service tech who gains access to new proprties all the time, can not. Other than inexperience or downright stupidity. In the case of no answer at the door, absolutely, call the office and tell them. The most correct move after that is for the office to CALL the house and verify that someone is either there or not. From the info given here, apparently this guy didn't even ATTEMPT to let anyone know he was entering the yard. Speaking of the office, why didn't they give Mike a courtesy call in the first place to let him know that someone was coming to his house? That's pretty much where this all started. There were more people at fault in this situation than just Capt Mike. To err is human and the various parties initially involved here are all, to the best of my knowledge, human.

I'll say it one more time, my arguments in this thread were motivated not by trying to condone Capt Mike's actions but by MY reaction to the excessive amount of disrespect railed upon him by SOME of the people on this board.

Nobody is perfect, nobody.

 

[Herself]

Okay Herself, first off, what is your favorite color? Plaid?

Huh?
Don't impugn my Scots ancestry, dear. That's considered rude.
Or are you complaining that the world and the people in it are a little too complex for you? That is a problem, but it's not my problem.

Really, the first post by Capt Mike presents the info available for the de-briefing.
My initial impressions were:
a) He has a pool. You don't see a lot of pools in the ghetto (That'd make a killer rap tune, eh?).
b) A nice, tall fence and a regular pool guy which further reinforces 'a'.
c) The potentially faux pool guy was not trying out the windows/doors on the house and no predatory behavior was ascribed to said pool guy from Capt. Mike.

Gee, a well-fenced backyard and a stranger in it: that would set me to fretting right there -- and when I fret, I do not just sit.
And Capt. Mike doesn't seem to be in a "bad" neighborhood and thus should fear not? Remember what Dillinger said when asked why he robbed banks? --Poor people might be easier marks but they don't have much worth stealing!

Based on the available evidence, tactically and logically, there was no valid reason to go 'Katrina' on pool dude.

Under the circumstances described, I would certainly have had a weapon in my hand when speaking with the stranger in the backyard; I would not have allowed him to get close to me. I probably would not have started the conversation looking at him over the sights; if it had ended that way, it would have been in response to his actions when confronted.

Harm done? Well, Pool Guy likely has soiled undies and possibly a low opinion of gunowners,

Can't say I have a high opinion of Pool Guy, myself. A fenced back yard is a clear sign to Keep Out. A man who ignores that is already behaving aggressively.

the responding LEOs likely pegged Mike for a ..different kind of guy and might be slow to show up next time (chicken-little syndrome),

Anyone who relies on police responding at all is living in a fantasy. They're not required to. Nor do I see what it matters what the police "pegged" Mike for; many cops have a less than nice opinion of any civilian with whom they interact.

and some bad advice, IMO, was dispensed as a consequence of this thread.

I thought that was why Al Gore invented the Internet in the first place!

--Herself

 

[Blue Jays]

Hi All-

I'm just counting the minutes until the moderators lock this inane and pro-violence thread. This is playing right into the hands of gun-grabbing politicians and certainly doesn't illustrate us taking the High Road in a given situation.

~ Blue Jays ~

 

[280PLUS]

Before they do, let me add, just for the record, that in my days of making it known to neighborhoods that I was better off left alone, I owned no firearms.

 

[bcochran]

Comments for everybody who freaks out (meaning some of the responses).

In the 1960s, the "pool man" stupidly burglarized a series of houses for minor thefts, including my parents' home. He had been the poolman. For some reason he decided to also steal pool acid and chlorine at the various locations and that was how he was caught.

In the 1970s, a divorcing client confided that her husband, the "telephone man" did major burglaries on homes in which he had worked.

And as for 911 in Los Angeles, a girl friend called 911 three times in 20 minutes over Christmas because a guy was trying to break in. The police were busy elsewhere. Two guys were caught, just gang members running away from another confrontation. To get into her backyard and be trying to break in the back door, you had to jump the fence. She now has a loaned .38 special for the next encounter.

And, the eye opener of all. I went around a couple of days with the local "beeman" We took our distinctive protective gear and went everywhere in Hollywood land. Through backyards, through carelessly left open gates. Most of the time we went unchallenged. Most people were in condition white. I am speaking about multimillion dollar estates. What was my beeman companion's background. Hell, I don't know. I think that he was probably a university bomber from Michigan and a federal fugitive. And, my background, no one knew. We could just as easily been burglars. There was no "boss" to call.

 

[Blue Jays]

Hi bcochran-

Those are apples & oranges comparisons you've highlighted. Here is what typically would be done in each case:

• 1960's Poolman -- He was absolutely a thief. If observed stealing swimming pool chemicals from the shed he should have immediately been reported to police. Would you really kill a man in a gunfight over fungicide, chlorine tablets, and waterwings?
  
  
• Telephone Man burglar -- If you're at home and he climbs through a window or busts down a door he is obviously fair game.
  
  
• LA Gangbangers -- At the rear door and attempting to break-in for over twenty minutes? I don't buy it. If they couldn't gain entry within a minute or two they would have moved elsewhere. If this story is somehow true, does it really need any further explanation if they somehow made it inside the home?
  
  
• Beeman disguise -- Were you really performing beekeeper work for which the people had contracted? Did the people have hives in their yards that they wished tended by a bee professional? If so, that is why you weren't stopped or questioned. If they didn't have beehives, it was just lucky for you the police weren't called. You apparently didn't do anything threatening that would make someone lay you down prone at gunpoint.

Regards,

~ Blue Jays ~

 

[Pilot]

Y'know, an awful lot of this really, really depends on the perceptions of the man behind the gun, things which cannot be covered by nice, safe generalities:

• What is the general nature of the neighborhood? Is it safe and quiet, or not?
• What is the recent history of break-ins in the neighborhood?
• What are the homeowner's experiences with crime?
• In the short time available to judge, was the behavior of the trespasser suspicious? Was it threatening?

Those are things we cannot know outside of having been there. Under very similar circumstances, the same response can be exactly right or plain stupid.

ALL of the above is meaningless. HE LEFT THE SAFETY OF HIS HOUSE to confront someone outside. That is the bottom line. He potenially put himelf in harms way by going outside. If I feel threatened, I stay inside, not go outside waiving a gun.

 

[Deathrider1579]

Huh?


Can't say I have a high opinion of Pool Guy, myself. A fenced back yard is a clear sign to Keep Out. A man who ignores that is already behaving aggressively.


Anyone who relies on police responding at all is living in a fantasy. They're not required to. Nor do I see what it matters what the police "pegged" Mike for; many cops have a less than nice opinion of any civilian with whom they interact.
--Herself

Very well said Herself!

I think I need to make my self clear, yes what I said is accurate with Texas law as far as I can make out.

I posted the stories that I did to make that point, NOT to say he should blow the pool guys head off.

Weather or not what he did was legal which I believe it was may not have been the wisest thing he could have done. Just as it is legal to have your carry piece with you on school property (as long as you don't go in a building) it may not be the smartest thing you can do (should say this is a Texas law and isn't a universal thing).

I agree with Herself that hopping a fence is an act of aggression I think it should have and was treated as such. This pool guy evidently had a room temp IQ I know of places in the south (not just Texas) that the local don't like people in their property to the point of shooting at them. Not saying he should have shot at the guy but there are people who do that kind of thing so this pool guy should know better.

I think its interesting that because the guy was indeed an innocent yall are jumping up and down screaming foul. What if he wasn't a pool guy and happened to be armed (illegally concealed) and looking for a family to murder and Capt. Mike stopped him in this same situation? I think yall would be standing in line to pat him on the back! Capt. Mike Perceived a threat and reacted in the manor which he thought appropriate his situation his property his neighborhood etc... Now that we know it was a pool guy its easy to say "you shouldn't have done that to a poor pool guy" but Mike didn't know he was a pool guy. Tacitly speaking I don't know it probably wasn’t the soundest tactics he could have employed but then again we don't know what he was thinking, seeing, hearing and so on.
Were I in the situation as I said I would have had my 12Ga I don't know if I would have gone out but I would definitely turned the dog out to see his reaction. Or if I chose to go out initially I would not make an attempt to hide the gun its my property I can go out looking like Rambo if I want. SG if not pointed at him, the muzzle would have been down and to the left as I am right handed and easer to quickly acquire a target from that position (at least for me).

I am not confident in the police's ability to keep track of all the crooks and low life’s in an area. I am responsible for my property to keep it bad guy free, if that means I challenge an innocent person so be it, I would not shoot a person or animal for that matter without them showing definite direct aggression to me or my family or my property. (no jumping a fence doesn’t count as direct aggression it does however constitute trespassing which is a crime.)

-DR

 

[Biker]

Huh?
Don't impugn my Scots ancestry, dear. That's considered rude.
Or are you complaining that the world and the people in it are a little too complex for you? That is a problem, but it's not my problem.


Gee, a well-fenced backyard and a stranger in it: that would set me to fretting right there -- and when I fret, I do not just sit.
And Capt. Mike doesn't seem to be in a "bad" neighborhood and thus should fear not? Remember what Dillinger said when asked why he robbed banks? --Poor people might be easier marks but they don't have much worth stealing!


Under the circumstances described, I would certainly have had a weapon in my hand when speaking with the stranger in the backyard; I would not have allowed him to get close to me. I probably would not have started the conversation looking at him over the sights; if it had ended that way, it would have been in response to his actions when confronted.


Can't say I have a high opinion of Pool Guy, myself. A fenced back yard is a clear sign to Keep Out. A man who ignores that is already behaving aggressively.


Anyone who relies on police responding at all is living in a fantasy. They're not required to. Nor do I see what it matters what the police "pegged" Mike for; many cops have a less than nice opinion of any civilian with whom they interact.


I thought that was why Al Gore invented the Iternet in the first place!

--Herself

Actually Herself, the 'plaid' reference was meant to be humor. I didn't know that you were Scottish. Sorry to hear that, but you seem to have done quite well in spite of your questionable ancestory.
Luckily, I'm Scandanavian.
I don't think that anyone has questioned the wisdom of approaching the situation armed, just the conduct.
As far as the opinion of LEOs go, they can make a huge difference in determining whether or not a homeowner is in the right and you certainly don't want to get a rep with them as a nut. JMO.
I wasn't advocating depending soley on the cops for SD, but they are a part of the equation, like it or not. Additionally, they can be a huge help if, as and when you need to defend yourself in a civil suit.
I've been through two, and the cops were more than helpful. Fact of the matter is, most cops are just regular folks, at least around here, and they recognise and appreciate the application of common sense.
And no, I don't have a problem as far as dealing with a complex world and the people inhabiting it - I just use common sense and logic which usually means that my mailman and the various meter readers in my 'hood are able to leave my property without mud stains on the front of their uniforms and other stains around their 'crotchal' area.
Biker

 

[NineseveN]

There are plenty of bad neighborhoods around, yours wasn't the only one.

No doubt, but that's obviously not what I was saying.

And I, as an experienced service tech who gains access to new proprties all the time, can not. Other than inexperience or downright stupidity.

So that's a good reason for someone to die? Being stupid? Being inexperienced? When you introduce a firearm, you escalate the situation if there is no credible threat of deadly force prior to that introduction, period (and yes, sometimes this is necessary). That's the end of the story. Someone walking on your property in broad daylight just ain't it. Someone climbing over your fence, when you have the advantage in your home of cover/concealment, arms and a large canine and a phone line is simply not enough of a threat to warrant the reaction Capt Mike had.

In the case of no answer at the door, absolutely, call the office and tell them. The most correct move after that is for the office to CALL the house and verify that someone is either there or not. From the info given here, apparently this guy didn't even ATTEMPT to let anyone know he was entering the yard. Speaking of the office, why didn't they give Mike a courtesy call in the first place to let him know that someone was coming to his house? That's pretty much where this all started. There were more people at fault in this situation than just Capt Mike. To err is human and the various parties initially involved here are all, to the best of my knowledge, human.

None of which the pool guy had any control over. How do we know the office didn't tell him they called? How do we know he didn't knock and got no answer? How do we know they didn't call and Capt Mike was busy and didn't get to the phone or didn't hear it? Because Capt Mike said so? Based on his reactions, I am not sure I can fill in the blank areas with any reason assigned to them simply because I find everything about Capt Mike's response unreasonable.

I'll say it one more time, my arguments in this thread were motivated not by trying to condone Capt Mike's actions but by MY reaction to the excessive amount of disrespect railed upon him by SOME of the people on this board.

Nobody is perfect, nobody.

Well, it' a touchy subject for sure, so I wouldn't get too worked up about it.

 

[NineseveN]

Under the circumstances described, I would certainly have had a weapon in my hand when speaking with the stranger in the backyard; I would not have allowed him to get close to me. I probably would not have started the conversation looking at him over the sights; if it had ended that way, it would have been in response to his actions when confronted.
--Herself

And that's probably the best way to deal with this situation.

 

[NineseveN]

I think its interesting that because the guy was indeed an innocent yall are jumping up and down screaming foul. What if he wasn't a pool guy and happened to be armed (illegally concealed) and looking for a family to murder and Capt. Mike stopped him in this same situation? I think yall would be standing in line to pat him on the back!

It has nothing to do with how it ended up, that's just salt in the wound; it has to do with the fact that he did not have one iota of a clue either way before he acted. That's just not responsible, sensible or rational; things all firearms owners should strive to be, at least those who are members on this board.

It's funny, he has a pool, he contracts to have it cleaned, and that thought never entered his mind during this whole confrontation? It seems like perhaps he's not completely assessing the situation before he acts. His first thought seemed to be, "Oh my god, there's a killer/rapist/thief/terrorist/liberal in my yard! Gun and dog and run out yelling!" which is not safe, reasonable or responsible. He was in absolutely zero immediate danger, waiting another minute to see what the guy was up to would not have hurt one bit. Unless he has a child or a pile of gold in that pool, there is very little reason to react in the manner he did. More rational folks have chimed in to the same effect. You assess, and then you react. I would say that while Mike did assess the situation, he did it very poorly and that's the insight we're giving him. Had he thought about it for a minute and watched the guy for another 120 seconds or so, he probably would have hit himself with the clue-by-four and thought, 'Ding! Pool guy!" and then he could have gone out (with gun concealed, dog at his side) and asked the pool guy why in the heck he was in his yard without knocking.



Another story that a friend reminded me of last night when I was talking with him about this:

He was in the exact situation. He was in his kitchen, noticed a man walking though his fenced-in back yard, looking around and such. My friend rushed out with his gun behind his back, and asked what in the heck this guy was doing. That was about the time that my friend noticed a large, black sidearm in the guy's hands. My friend started to draw when the guy in the yard replied, "sir, I'm with the XXXX Police Department, we have a situation and we have reason to believe that a suspect came trough your yard while trying to evade us. For your safety, I ask that you go inside for the moment while I make sure your yard is secure. Some uniformed officers will be along shortly."

The black and whites were there seconds after.

They finally caught the perp (drug dealer and shot at a detective IIRC) three yards over.

Had Capt Mike stumbled into a situation such as this, do you think he'd still be alive? How about the cop? It's not hard to imagine someone getting killed here. Here you have a homeowner that the cop doesn't know from dirt and for all he knows could be an associate of the perp, and a cop chasing a violent and dangerous criminal that took a couple of shots at his fellow officers. That cop sees a gun, Mike sees a gun. The cop is a detective so there is no uniform, Mike isn't wearing his 'I am an innocnet homeowner' uniform to distinguish him from a bad guy.


9-1-1 dispatch, shots fired, officer and suspect down.

It is because of situations such as this that you always strive to do a better job assessing so that your reaction is always the right one, or as close to it as you can get. I don't think we had that in Capt Mike's scenario.

 

[280PLUS]

I didn't know that you were Scottish. Sorry to hear that, but you seem to have done quite well in spite of your questionable ancestory.

OUCH!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 280PLUS
There are plenty of bad neighborhoods around, yours wasn't the only one.


No doubt, but that's obviously not what I was saying.

Then I misunderstood you, what WERE you saying?

So that's a good reason for someone to die? Being stupid? Being inexperienced?

Not at all. I never said nor implied that. What I said, or meant to say or was TRYING to say is that pool guy and his company share blame for the incident, that is all.

As far as the "How do we knows" there's plenty more than just the ones you mention. There's a lot we don't know.

Well, it' a touchy subject for sure, so I wouldn't get too worked up about it.

I'm not, I'm just trying to stand my ground with attempts at fair and reasonable argument. Just because these little verbal lynchings are not uncommon around here doesn't make them right. I don't like them. I think they detract from the board. If Capt Mike is truly who and what he has said he is IMHO he could be a valuable asset to the board and it would be a shame to lose him because a few find it too hard to just say, "Gee, you know, maybe that wasn't the best way to approach this type of situation." and gone on to explain, in a reasonable manner, why.

And just to add to the list of nefarious service industry people posted by Bochran (?) The three houses that were hit near me in my "good" neighborhood had 2 things in common. The same landscapers and the same cleaning service. Somebody knew that all three families were going to be away at the same time. The question was who in which service provided the inside information.

Ah well, I am planning to let this one fall off the board and have been for at least a day now. But I don't want to ignore questions addressed to me and leave them unanswered.

 

[Blue Jays]

Hi NineseveN-

You've provided yet another rational and reasonable commentary to this thread. People who choose to go armed should follow your intelligent lead and that of Biker, Taliv, Pilot, Torpid, and others who have carefully considered this dynamic situation and shared their thoughts.

Jeff White expressed the overall concern perfectly (in his red editorial post) on page 10 of this thread. As RKBA & 2nd Amendment supporters we can be our own undoing if we aren't extremely mindful of our public actions.

~ Blue Jays ~

 

[NineseveN]

Then I misunderstood you, what WERE you saying?

I was saying that the things you see from this thread don't happen in truly bad neighborhoods. I know the term 'bad' is subjective, but I have seen and heard folks call a neighborhood that has had 2 murders and maybe a handful or armed robberies in a year "a bad neighborhood" or "getting bad". In the truly bad places in this country, and on this planet, 2 murders and a handful of armed robberies is a slow week. And in those places, folks tend to make sure about whom they are rolling up on and for what reason, because someone is going to die or be seriously injured, that's just how it goes.

In a neighborhood I spent time in during my youth (cause I never grew up hehe), the utility companies estimated year round because meter readers kept getting robber and/or murdered. Yes, they killed the meter readers, for some cash, and just because they could. They shot at the utility trucks, the police cars, they'd set fire to the fire station...the only folks they never seemed to touch were the mail carriers (because they were federal perhaps?). I eventually went to work for one of these utility companies and I asked the meter readers about it. They had a special 'task force' that would go out, 5-men deep (and armed) with police escorts to read meters twice per year (just before moratorium began and just after it ended each year), and these guys were mostly ex-LEO's or just big mean guys...it had really come to that.

Folks getting killed at convenience stores and gas stations is what happens in the good neighborhoods from time to time. Murder, robbery and rape in the streets during broad daylight, yeah, when you start seeing that weekly, you can say you're in a "bad neighborhood".

When I moved to my current residence to relocate for a job, I moved into an apartment smack in the middle of downtown of this little burgh, nothing like the big city. There are maybe 2000 people that go through town a day, and none on the weekends (compare that to probably 200,000 people per day in a normal sized city)...anyway, folks were asking if I was scared because I was in a "bad neighborhood". I told them if I was ever the victim of a crime here, I would just say I fell or something and never admit it, I'd be embarrassed. I think we had 1 murder this past year in this county, 2 if you count manslaughter.

Anyway, back on track, what I am saying is that this Rambo-mall-ninja BS doesn’t float in the real bad neighborhoods. In Watts, Compton, Harlem, South Central, Broad Street, whateverghetto, you or someone else would be DRT for pulling that crap. When the guns come out, it's bang time.

Not at all. I never said nor implied that. What I said, or meant to say or was TRYING to say is that pool guy and his company share blame for the incident, that is all.

Without a doubt, I completely agree.

As far as the "How do we knows" there's plenty more than just the ones you mention. There's a lot we don't know.

Again, I agree, and that was partially my point. I think you and I are least in the same book, maybe not the same page, but perhaps the same section?

 

[NineseveN]

Hi NineseveN-

You've provided yet another rational and reasonable commentary to this thread. People who choose to go armed should follow your intelligent lead and that of Biker, Taliv, Pilot, Torpid, and others who have carefully considered this dynamic situation and shared their thoughts.

Jeff White expressed the overall concern perfectly (in his red editorial post) on page 10 of this thread. As RKBA & 2nd Amendment supporters we can be our own undoing if we aren't extremely mindful of our public actions.

~ Blue Jays ~

Well, I'm back on my meds, so that's my excuse.

 

[irx]

...the only folks they never seemed to touch were the mail carriers (because they were federal perhaps?).

They bring the welfare checks.
You don't kill the goose that lays the golden eggs.

 

[NineseveN]

They bring the welfare checks.
You don't kill the goose that lays the golden eggs.

That makes a lot of sense as I think of it. I had heard it bounced around that it was because they did not want Federal Agents to be sent in on a murder case of a Fed employee. I do know they went after the utility folks because they did not pay the bills and until recently, the power had to be shut off at the premises if it was to be disconnnected for non payment...and you could not legally interrupt power if the 2 most recent billing cycles were estimated reads anyway. But yeah, it makes sense for a lot of reasons to leave the postal folks alone.

Sorry for the thread drift.

 

[280PLUS]

OK, you win the bad neighborhood contest.

I think you and I are least in the same book, maybe not the same page, but perhaps the same section?

Absolutely

I'd like to take this resolution and leave this thread forever now...

 

[Biker]

OK, you win the bad neighborhood contest.

Absolutely

I'd like to take this resolution and leave this thread forever now...

Sure.








IIIIiiii got the llllaaaasssst word...

Biker

 

[NineseveN]

Sure.








IIIIiiii got the llllaaaasssst word...

Biker

LMAO.

 

[280PLUS]

IIIIiiii got the llllaaaasssst word...

 

[bojangles]

I wonder how, or if, this over reaction, will effect the pool man's next vote on gun legilastion?

 

[Michael Courtney]

I have to agree with Pebcac. In my neck of the woods, the cops would frown upon this. I might even get ticketed for brandishing a firearm.
Biker

If there were open access to the backyard, I might agree.

However, the details make it clear that the intruder had to defeat some security measures to enter the yard. Once an intruder has climbed a fence or defeated a lock to enter a location, that raises the level of the encounter.

Michael Courtney