Dudedog October (in memory of Jell-Dog) PIF journey

[vaalpens]

It is time again for one of my PIF journey threads. This one is special though. Dudedog was going through his reloading stuff, thought of Jell-Dog, and decided to send a MFRB to Vaalpens.

This was obviously a big surprise, but also a reminder of the the big loss when Jell-Dog left us.

Let's start with a picture:


The MFRB contained Corncob, Flitz media additive, 20S&W cases (including nickel), 9mm RMR 147gr heavy match winners bullets, RMR .45 230gr plated RN bullets and Xtreme .45 200gr SWC bullets.

What I normally do is work up some loads with these components and share the load and test data with the THR members. I only received this PIF from Dudedog due to his generosity, and also because of being on the THR forum.

I normally have some idea how I want to use the components, but could change the plan as things progresses.

Following is what I have planned so far:

Corncob and Flitz polish:
I have some containers of brass that needs cleaning, but will probably start with some 357sig cases. The kernels look very fine, so I am interested to see if i will get any kernels stuck in the smaller flash hole 357sig brass.

The 40S&W cases:
These case have already been cleaned by Dudedog (wet cleaning) and are very clean. I will put them into my rotation, but will select a few cases, maybe nickel, and load up a few loads to share.

RMR 147gr heavy match winners:
These will probably be used with CFE Pistol in 357sig. I have tested some plated 147gr bullets in 357sig, which were very accurate. I think it makes sense to expand on the CFE-P loads and see what accuracy and velocity I can get out of them.

RMR .45 230gr plated:
Since these are so similar to the RMR 230gr FMJRN bullets I am loading, I would think I will probably go with Bullseye, HP-38 or Sport Pistol. The aim will probably be to compare velocity and accuracy against the FMJ bullets.

Xtreme .45 200gr SWC:
These bullets do not feed that well in the SIG P220 since they have a very sharp shoulder. I can't experience too much with the COL since the magazine limits it, but I will load some low and higher velocity loads to see which one will give more reliable feeding. I would love to hear from anybody with experience loading with this specific bullet and P220.

Any comments or suggestions regarding what loads to create will be appreciated.

 

[vaalpens]

Since I am planning to load the RMR 147gr heavy match winners in 357sig, the first thing I normally do is test/measure to see how it fits in 357sig and load some dummy rounds. Following are the steps I performed to validate that this bullet will work in 357sig:

First I measured the bullet and found a length of .627" and a diameter of .3555", so far so good. I then put the bullet upside down in a sized case so I can make sure the ogive it outside the case at a specific COL. This is where I determine if my target COL needs adjusting. My target COL for this shape of bullet is normally 1.140" and the measurements showed that the ogive should be about .0285" outside the case mouth, enough to compensate for any longer cases. I will probably go with the 1.140" COL. Next I created the dummy round and did my normal tests: Plunk, cycle, setback and scale tests. There was a slight setback of .001" after 4 cycles, which is acceptable. After the cycle/setback test I did the bathroom scale test, and applied 27lb pressure for about 5 seconds, with no setback. The bullet passed all tests and will be tested in 357sig.

I have another thread going where I shared some 357sig load/test data. One discussion point that came up was expanding vs chamfer before seating the bullet. With a chamfer you don't have top apply a crimp. maybe I will incorporate an expanding vs chamfer comparison as part of the 147gr bullet test. Time will tell.

I will keep you updated regarding the progress. Any comments or suggestions will be appreciated.

 

[Blue68f100]

Most use the 147gr .355 in 9mm for subsonic loads. May be interesting in the 357 Sig.

 

[bbqreloader]

Vaal, the most comparable info I have that would relate is Lead MBC 200 gr SWC. One of the Dog's sent me a care package last year with samplers.
So Sig P220, went with BE86 6.5gr, COL 1.240. Didn't have any FTF or FTE
Hope this helps.

 

[vaalpens]

Vaal, the most comparable info I have that would relate is Lead MBC 200 gr SWC. One of the Dog's sent me a care package last year with samplers.
So Sig P220, went with BE86 6.5gr, COL 1.240. Didn't have any FTF or FTE
Hope this helps.

Thanks bbqreloader!

I have loaded this Xtreme SWC bullet up to 6.3gr with BE-86 and a COL of 1.220". The load gave me very good accuracy at 15 yards (target below) and a velocity of 821fps. I can't remember if this load also resulted in any FTF or FTE's.

I had some difficulty with a longer COL. Not because of a failed the plunk test, but getting stuck in the magazine with the longer COL. I will see if I can increase the COL a bit.

 

[bbqreloader]

Thanks bbqreloader!

I have loaded this Xtreme SWC bullet up to 6.3gr with BE-86 and a COL of 1.220". The load gave me very good accuracy at 15 yards (target below) and a velocity of 821fps. I can't remember if this load also resulted in any FTF or FTE's.

I had some difficulty with a longer COL. Not because of a failed the plunk test, but getting stuck in the magazine with the longer COL. I will see if I can increase the COL a bit.
View attachment 809350

Good to hear, was the first time I ever messed with a SWC, just remember trying to get it long enough so it didn't look like it was sunk in the case

 

[Dudedog]

OOpppsss looking at the picture I looks like I got some brass ones mixed in with the Nickel.
Proof that I am going blind.
(they were all sort of shiny, crummy light sorting on the patio at night)

 

[vaalpens]

OOpppsss looking at the picture I looks like I got some brass ones mixed in with the Nickel.
Proof that I am going blind.
(they were all sort of shiny, crummy light sorting on the patio at night)

I already resized the nickel brass and realized I'm not the only one having difficulty differentiating between nickel and brass. I thing the light source contributes to it also, but at least you have an excuse. The brass were so shiny that some of them could have been mistaken for nickel cases.

 

[vaalpens]

Well at least I made my first decision regarding loads to test.

From the beginning I thought I would load the 147gr RMR 9mm FMJFN bullets in 357sig with CFE Pistol, and I decided to stick with the plan. I did adjust the plan a little bit but adding chamfered vs expanded/crimped loads. This will give me some data to compare against the plated bullets I tested, and also determine if I see any difference between cases that has been chamfered vs cases that were expanded and crimped.

I have completed the case preparation with 25 cases chamfered and 25 expanded. The loads I will be testing will be:

357sig using CFE Pistol with the RMR 147gr FMJFN bullets loaded to a COL of 1.140"
5 loads of 5 rounds each with chamfered cases and 5.5gr, 5.7gr, 5.9gr, 6.0gr and 6.1gr of CFE-P
5 loads of 5 rounds each with expanded/crimped cases and 5.5gr, 5.7gr, 5.9gr, 6.0gr and 6.1gr of CFE-P

I have not loaded the rounds yet, so I can still change my mind on the 6.0gr and 6.1gr loads, but for now I think I am good with maxing out at 6.1gr. Testing won't be done this weekend, so the earliest will probably be the following weekend.

 

[Dudedog]

Thanks for the update, maybe I am not blind yet

 

[vaalpens]

I have completed the case preparation with 25 cases chamfered and 25 expanded. The loads I will be testing will be:

357sig using CFE Pistol with the RMR 147gr FMJFN bullets loaded to a COL of 1.140"
5 loads of 5 rounds each with chamfered cases and 5.5gr, 5.7gr, 5.9gr, 6.0gr and 6.1gr of CFE-P
5 loads of 5 rounds each with expanded/crimped cases and 5.5gr, 5.7gr, 5.9gr, 6.0gr and 6.1gr of CFE-P

I decided to stick to the above plan and created the 10 different loads. No issues were found except for the placing of the bullets during seating with the chamfered cases. I'm not sure if I did not chamfer them enough, but I had to hold each bullet during the seating process. No crushed necks though, so I assume each case was chamfered enough.

Following are the completed loads, well nearly completed since crimping still had to be applied to half of them.

 

[Dudedog]

Those bullets look nice in the Sig cases, always liked FNs.
Is the base of the bullet below the bottom of the neck?
After looking at 124s the 147 FNs always look long to me.

 

[vaalpens]

Those bullets look nice in the Sig cases, always liked FNs.
Is the base of the bullet below the bottom of the neck?
After looking at 124s the 147 FNs always look long to me.

I don't have an extra bullet to show that the base of the bullet will be below the bottom of the neck, but SAAMI shows a neck length of about .150" and my calculation shows that the bullet with a COL of 1.140" is seated about .347" below the mouth. That is longer than the neck. A sliver of the base is sticking out outside the mouth. One of the tests that I perform to make sure the bullet will fit in 357sig is to ensure that the ogive is outside the case. I take a sized case and put it upside down on the completed round. This shows that a sliver of the base is sticking out.

 

[Dudedog]

Thanks, I was just curious, using the Mark 1 eyeball it looked like they might.
Plenty there on those bullets for the neck to grab onto, Hopefully they shoot well for you.

 

[vaalpens]

It has been difficult to decide what I wanted to get out of the loads using the Xtreme 200gr .45 SWC bullets, but I think I have made a decision. Obviously I can still change my mind, but for now I am going to go with similar powders and see how they stack up. I have already decided to increase the COL by .02" to 1.240", and then document the chrono data, accuracy and also feeding/extracting reliability. The reliability test is for the P220 and the SWC sharp shoulder, so it should not have any bearing on how well it will feed/extract in another gun.

For now I have decided to go with BE-86 and CFE Pistol. I am targeting the BE-86 loads to similar to what I have tested before, but I also wanted to include the suggested 1.240" COL and 6.5gr combination. The CFE Pistol loads are basically .2gr higher than the BE-86 loads to adjust for the CFE Pistol being a bit slower than BE-86. The velocities from min to max should be similar between the two powders.

The loads I am planning to test will be:
5 different loads of 5 each using Xtreme 200gr .45 SWC plated bullets, CCI300 primers, a COL of 1.240", Winchester cases, and BE-86 6.1gr, 6.2gr, 6.3gr, 6.4gr and 6.5gr.
5 different loads of 5 each using Xtreme 200gr .45 SWC plated bullets, CCI300 primers, a COL of 1.240", Winchester cases, and CFE Pistol 6.3gr, 6.4gr, 6.5gr, 6.6gr and 6.7gr.

The testing will be done from 15yards using a rest and a scope that won't be zeroed. Holes in the paper in a grouping is all I am looking for.

An option I am thinking of is to increase the loads by .2gr from min to max instead of .1gr to test a wider range, but for now an increase of .1gr is what I am planning.

Another option I was thinking about was to only test one powder, but use magnum CCI350 in the second set of loads.The loads could be something like BE-86 6.1gr, 6.2gr, 6.3gr, 6.4gr, 6.5gr and 6.6gr with CCI300 and BE-86 6.1gr, 6.3gr and 6.6gr with CCI350. These loads are still way below the listed max for Speer 200gr TMJ SWC bullets of 8.1gr, so 6.6gr with a magnum primer seems safe to try.

Any comments and/or suggestions are always welcome.

 

[vaalpens]

I had some free time last night and decided to resize and sort by headstamp the 40s&w brass Dudedog sent me. There was one 9mm cases and a few stainless steel pins. Now at least I know how small they are. There were 8 headstamps I separated, with the rest going into the mix container. These were the standard headstamps I normally see, with one new headstamp. My plan is to load up a few loads using the new headstamp and post the results over here. Here are the results from the sorting:


Since I have not listed the different headstamps yet, and this thread is the result from a Dudedog PIF, feel free to guess the different headstamps from left to right. They are sorted in alphabetical order since that is the only way I can remember where each different headstamp go without labeling each container. The member that comes the closest to accurately listing the different headstamps, will get a USPS small flat rate box filled with you choice of 223/556, 9mm or 40s&w range pickup brass, plus free shipping. I will reveal the 8 headstamps in about a week's time, or earlier if somebody already correctly named them. One guess per member please.

 

[Dudedog]

Sorry about the pins, thought I got them all
(I think I mentioned they like to escape....)
I hope the first bin isn't Amerc
Since I don't own a .40 I just tossed them all in a box for later and never payed any attention to what flavors.

Hmm 4 major flavors, one medium, 3 minor flavors.
Can't wait to see the answer, the ones in the middle are making me scratch my head and think.
The guesses should be interesting.

Neat idea!

 

[vaalpens]

Sorry about the pins, thought I got them all
(I think I mentioned they like to escape....)
I hope the first bin isn't Amerc
Since I don't own a .40 I just tossed them all in a box for later and never payed any attention to what flavors.

Hmm 4 major flavors, one medium, 3 minor flavors.
Can't wait to see the answer, the ones in the middle are making me scratch my head and think.
The guesses should be interesting.

Neat idea!

The pins were not a problem. It was just nice to see what they actually look like. I assume your magnet did not pick them up since it was actually a 9mm case stuck inside a 40s&w case with pins stick between them. If you look at the picture above you will see a clear container in the back with one case and some stainless pins, probably can't see the pins. That was the case I had to pull out of the 40 case.

The one in the middle, actually 4th from the left is the new headstamp for me. I will create some 155gr loads with them and share the results on this thread.

 

[Dudedog]

Surprised,
no guesses yet.

Yes if a 9mm gets in with the 40s it can gets stuck in there pretty good, same for a .40 in the .45s.
The pins are nice and small, never had an issue with the getting stuck in flash holes.

Not fair for me to enter since I had the brass but to get things started (but haven't the faintest idea what flavors it was)
Bin 1 (far left) Blazer
2 CCI
3 FC (Federal)
4 Fiocchi
5 Remmington
6 S+B
7 Winchester
8 Zero (if I make 7 Winchester that only leaves me X, Y and Z)

Now we need a Federal Grant to determine the average head stamps makeup of various calibers of range brass, does it vary by location, time of year etc.....

 

[vaalpens]

I just realized that I lost one of my posts due to the THR server issues. Let try again.

After some head scratching I finally decided on possible loads for the RMR .45 230gr PRN bullets. I will be selecting two powders and load 5 loads of 5 rounds each per powder.

HP-38 has been selected as a definite powder since Dudedog shared some HP-38 load data with me. The range I will be loading will be similar what Dudedog loads to provide some additional test data to compare. Following are my possible HP-38 loads:
RMR .45 230gr PRN bullets, COL 1.275", HP-38, 4.7gr, 4.8gr, 4.9gr, 5.0gr and 5.1gr.

The second powder will be one of the following:
RMR .45 230gr PRN bullets, COL 1.275", 700x, 4.3gr, 4.4gr, 4.5gr, 4.6gr and 4.7gr. (range I tested with the RMR 230gr FMJ)
RMR .45 230gr PRN bullets, COL 1.275", Bullseye, 4.7gr, 4.8gr, 4.9gr, 5.0gr and 5.1gr. (range I tested with the RMR 230gr FMJ)
RMR .45 230gr PRN bullets, COL 1.275", Sport Pistol, 4.7gr, 4.8gr, 4.9gr, 5.0gr and 5.1gr. (matching the HP-38 range)

As always any comments or advice will be appreciated.

 

[vaalpens]

I has been about a week now, so I decided to announce the winner of the SFRB filled with brass. This was easy to determine the winner since we only had one entry. No machine or hand recounts will be necessary.

Not fair for me to enter since I had the brass but to get things started (but haven't the faintest idea what flavors it was)
Bin 1 (far left) Blazer
2 CCI
3 FC (Federal)
4 Fiocchi
5 Remmington
6 S+B
7 Winchester
8 Zero (if I make 7 Winchester that only leaves me X, Y and Z)

Congratulations to Dudedog! Send me a PM and let me know what caliber brass you would like to receive gratis.

I don't know if it has been the issues with THR lately, but it seems nobody wants free brass, or at least the calibers I am offering. There is probably a simple explanation for the lack of interest, nobody reads my ramblings so nobody knew of the brass giveaway. Advertising was never my strong suit.

Following is how I sorted the brass by headstamp:



The new brass I have never seen before is LAX. I have already indicated that I will be using them for some test loads and will share the results in this thread. In my next post I will share the load data using the LAX cases.

Based on the guess from from Dudedog, it seems there could be a questions if FC and Federal, and WIN and Winchester are 4 unique headstamps, or for reloading purposes should be seen as 2 headstamps. I have always separated them and see them as 4 distinct headstamps.

 

[bbqreloader]

I never saw the updates and couldnt get on last night anyway...but can say I never heard of LAX brass headstamp before. Always considered FC and Federal the same as well as WIN and Winchester.
Was happy last week though, actually was next to a couple for guys shooting 40SW and they swept their brass to me...SCORE! My buddy and I both carry pistols in 40 and reload a number of rounds for them, so free brass is always good!
Interested to see what powder and load you like the best. If its BE86 please post results in mega thread for others to see, have fun!!

 

[vaalpens]

I never saw the updates and couldnt get on last night anyway...but can say I never heard of LAX brass headstamp before. Always considered FC and Federal the same as well as WIN and Winchester.
Was happy last week though, actually was next to a couple for guys shooting 40SW and they swept their brass to me...SCORE! My buddy and I both carry pistols in 40 and reload a number of rounds for them, so free brass is always good!
Interested to see what powder and load you like the best. If its BE86 please post results in mega thread for others to see, have fun!!

Nice to hear shooters are still enjoy shooting 40s&w. I have some loads in BE-86 I like, but this time I am going to try something new with the new brass. I am going to try some Longshot, which is supposed to be good in 40s&w. I will have to start on the low end since the brass quality is an unknown factor, plus I will be loading some pulled 155gr FMJ FP bullets.

 

[vaalpens]

Since the LAX headtamp has been divulged and 40s&w has been in the discussion, it is time to announce the test loads with the LAX headstamp cases:


40s&w, LAX cases, Pulled 155gr FMJFP, COL 1.125", Longshot 7.5gr, 7.6gr, 7.7gr, 7.8gr, 7.9gr, 8.0gr

I decided on Longshot since it is a good powder for 40s&w, but I haven not tested many loads in 40, and none with 155gr. So all around, including the headstamp, this is new to me. I also decided to start at the min published Hodgdon data since LAX headstamp is unknown to me and the bullets are pulled. I always take possible setback into consideration when loading pulled bullets.

These loads will be tested using my normal test regiment at 15yards with a rest and non-zeroed scope.

 

[vaalpens]

Congratulations to Dudedog! Send me a PM and let me know what caliber brass you would like to receive gratis.

Looks like Dudedog is at it again. Dudedog has decided to PIF his winnings to another THR member, so a box of 40S&W brass will be mailed to bbqreloader. Jell-Dog must be smiling.